The basic mistake being made is this: by default you are not DPS. Same silly posts week after week. "Oh noes, can't go with 5 DPS. Need support/CC" = new trinity.

Classes are not DPS or Support or CC or Tank. Each class is a mix of all of those things, depending on weapon sets and traits. If I spec a ranger as DPS ( or rather I try and maximise damage potential), I still get some CC (a knock-back, or a daze or a slow) with Axe/Warhorn, or with a Shortbow, or with a Longbow, regardless of where trait points have been spent. I still get a support buff with the Warhorn.

The only people who will be saying in chat "Need CC/Support for X dungeon!" will be the dickheads who don't understand the game.

Originally posted by MorpheusMJW

Hey all,

 

This is a thread about still having problems with the control/support/dps/whatever roles and needing people for high end content. Since the only thing people know about end game content is it will be difficult, surely you will need a support and/or someone that can CC in your team, you probably won't be able to do the highest difficult content zerging it with 5 dps right?

So, does that mean people will still be waiting on certain roles, just like with the old tank and healers it will be control+support?

I understand the notion that every class can support/damage/control, but its not what a person can do its what they choose to do. Alot of people will choose to only dps, be stubborn and not help support/control, will this be a problem?

Do you think it will be possible to do a 5 man hard mode PvE dungeons with just dps? You you need someone to specialise in a role, or do you think it will be possible to split the effort of support/control across all 5 players?

NO NO NO NO.

This will not happen.  You will only need to be looking for 2 more PEOPLE not professions or even roles.  For PvE content, you will not be stuck looking for a specific role.  If what you've described happen, then Anet has lied and failed at what they have promised over and over again.

Please watch this if you don't agree.

In sPvP, you may have a different experience since this is more of the Min/Max part of the game where you might prefer a player to spec a certain way.

So no more LF 55 monk?

This question was asked before and I replied in depth there.

Short answer is that group builds WILL develop I guarantee it.  People will recruit for these.  They will not follow you typical tank and spank idea though and there will be many type of group builds. 

There will be anything from a double mesmer Time Warp spike build to a wall/buble obstruction heavy/projectile based build.

To understand it imagine how you buidl a single character.  Now apply that to a part of five.  That is what will happen. 

This will be both good and bad.  You will see more variation in parties.  Alot more.  But people who recruit for particular party builds can be amazingly close minded when that one build they know works is all they have done.  You will also see a number of people who are quite good at many builds and very relaxed about it.  And the difference will be striking.

Originally posted by AzurePrower

So no more LF 55 monk?

Is that what people did with IWAY builds before they were nerfed I remember seeing entire groups of ranger/warriors cleaning house with that gimmick build.

A 55hp monk was used in many GW1 group builds but its not like it was required in all of them.  Although most GvG group always had a 2 or 3 monk backline in the beginning.  I think that changed over time with ritualists.

And incidentally this is one of the main reason GW2 is so tight with healing.  Monks were the only class that 80% of group builds still needed.  The other classes varied quite a lot.

Originally posted by Masa1

Originally posted by MorpheusMJW

So, does that mean people will still be waiting on certain roles, just like with the old tank and healers it will be control+support?

Most likely.. they've just changed 1 holy trinity into another.

And yet another person that truly doesn't understand GW2 mechanics.  /sigh

Originally posted by GrumpyCharr

Originally posted by MorpheusMJW

Hey all,

 

This is a thread about still having problems with the control/support/dps/whatever roles and needing people for high end content. Since the only thing people know about end game content is it will be difficult, surely you will need a support and/or someone that can CC in your team, you probably won't be able to do the highest difficult content zerging it with 5 dps right?

So, does that mean people will still be waiting on certain roles, just like with the old tank and healers it will be control+support?

I understand the notion that every class can support/damage/control, but its not what a person can do its what they choose to do. Alot of people will choose to only dps, be stubborn and not help support/control, will this be a problem?

Do you think it will be possible to do a 5 man hard mode PvE dungeons with just dps? You you need someone to specialise in a role, or do you think it will be possible to split the effort of support/control across all 5 players?

NO NO NO NO.

This will not happen.  You will only need to be looking for 2 more PEOPLE not professions or even roles.  For PvE content, you will not be stuck looking for a specific role.  If what you've described happen, then Anet has lied and failed at what they have promised over and over again.

Please watch this if you don't agree.

In sPvP, you may have a different experience since this is more of the Min/Max part of the game where you might prefer a player to spec a certain way.

I sort of agree in spirit but this is a little naive sounding.  You can conceivable get a group of people who are all specced with only DPS skills and traits.  They will die.  Die horribly even in the first dungone.  Even in the second encounter of the first dungeon

BUT

They can swap out skills whenever they need and traits are not so overwhelming that you must have some particular trait build.  There are some key traits that can make one person cover more support.

If the PEOPLE you recruit are not complete idiots you will most likely have what you need to get through assuming they have unlocked at least a few support skills.  Which at level 30 may not be the case.

2nd BUT

Addtionally what I guarantee will happen is that even though most PEOPLE will have what they need to get through a dungeon some people will be recruiting for OPTIMAL setups and they may either have a particular build in mind and are a nice normal person.  Or they may be an anal retentive dumbass who can't deviate from what they know works.  But either way you will see very particular and even ass-holeish recruiting for particular things. 

This will most likely be based around certain skills not class/role.  Some effects are only available in one class.  Some effects show up in multiple places.  Some skills do key things and there will be group builds that revolve around those key things.  For example the Guardian Staff has that wall ability and a bubble to keep out melee some builds may revovle around that.  Of course bosses with stability can go through it so you can't do it exclusion.

From what you see in story mode of ascalonian catacombs we can infer something in their dungeon design.  They will purposely throw a number of different things at you in the hope that a gimmick build will not work on everything.  So what we have in the first esection of AC story is:

1) Melee boss with nasty KD - needs melee counters and control counters

2) 3 mob spawn with a huge damage elementalist, one melee, one mesmer - the ele MUST be taken down first and fast.  You want to disable and spike.  But spiking the mesmer can hurt due to reflection

3) 3 mob spawn of all rangers that use ranged and traps - you need someway to protect from projectile and some way to deal with their AOE traps.  The anti-projectile bubble of a gaurdian is not as useful because if everyone clusters in the bubble you will get a trap put on you.  The mesmer feedback skill that reflects projectile and is cast on the ranger is more useful.

But even with all this variation people will still come up with particular builds types they want to run as the game becomes more and more known.  The super fast farmer types will always exist.  They will always come up with rules for success.  And some of them are uptight aholes.  Some aren't.

Whenever I will see the usual: "LF1M (insert generic oldstyle role) to gogogo..."

I will just smile while I click "Ignore".

Look. You're never going to completely get rid of people looking for specific class types / roles in chat. There's only so much you can do to cure ignorance.

What's important is that this game doesn't force these dependancies on you. Think of it this way, just because it's possible to run a dungeon w/ 5 thieves, doesn't mean that you'r necessarily going to want to. It will generally be easier to run the same content w/ a more diverse group.

As such, it's going to be more common to see groups wanting a mix of different professions. Which professions get mixed will vary on an individual basis (and with personal preference), but what this does mean is if you can't find a guardian, you aren't doomed. You can just pick up any class that's played by a competent player and have a decent chance at clearing the dungeon.

- If you are not going to form your own groups, you will also be at the mercy of ignorant players' bias.

It is a theory that is heavyly defended in thesse forums that there will not be a need to form groups based on the new trinity roles.

But fact is we don't know that for sure. First we simply don't know what is most efficient. Secondly we don't know what actual creates and facilitate "easymode" for most of the playerbase. And those 2 things will be what decide what people calls for

The margin for errors (and success) is a lot bigger if everone can do everything. There is chances that reactive actions do fall in ineffictive patterns where players waiste actions because they use their skills in uncordinated ways.

This will fundemental mean that coordinated builds will have a big advantage. But what we don't know is if these builds also get more efficient if the players do stay with mainly predifined roles.

When every one can control, there is chance that sometimes everyone use control, where some sort of support would have been more beneficial to mix in. With fixed roles that problem is solved automaticly. On the other hand with fixed roles a group can much more easyly crumble if one role is not availeble when some members is downed.

As i see it , players skilled enough and communcating well enough will not need or benefit from fixed roles. But for the rest we just don't know if fixed roles will do better when groups are challenged, than groups where everyone can do everything.

Time will show.

Originally posted by Honner

Originally posted by MorpheusMJW

Hey all,

 

This is a thread about still having problems with the control/support/dps/whatever roles and needing people for high end content. Since the only thing people know about end game content is it will be difficult, surely you will need a support and/or someone that can CC in your team, you probably won't be able to do the highest difficult content zerging it with 5 dps right?

So, does that mean people will still be waiting on certain roles, just like with the old tank and healers it will be control+support?

I understand the notion that every class can support/damage/control, but its not what a person can do its what they choose to do. Alot of people will choose to only dps, be stubborn and not help support/control, will this be a problem?

Do you think it will be possible to do a 5 man hard mode PvE dungeons with just dps? You you need someone to specialise in a role, or do you think it will be possible to split the effort of support/control across all 5 players?

no.

They might. I mean come on, you can't expect a pure dps team to go into the acsolonian catacombs? Well they could pull it off but it will extremely frustrating. So yea you will see it. Just not TOO much of it (Or maybe you might. Idk. Too early to tell). 

Originally posted by prpshrt

Originally posted by Honner

Originally posted by MorpheusMJW

Hey all,

 

This is a thread about still having problems with the control/support/dps/whatever roles and needing people for high end content. Since the only thing people know about end game content is it will be difficult, surely you will need a support and/or someone that can CC in your team, you probably won't be able to do the highest difficult content zerging it with 5 dps right?

So, does that mean people will still be waiting on certain roles, just like with the old tank and healers it will be control+support?

I understand the notion that every class can support/damage/control, but its not what a person can do its what they choose to do. Alot of people will choose to only dps, be stubborn and not help support/control, will this be a problem?

Do you think it will be possible to do a 5 man hard mode PvE dungeons with just dps? You you need someone to specialise in a role, or do you think it will be possible to split the effort of support/control across all 5 players?

no.

They might. I mean come on, you can't expect a pure dps team to go into the acsolonian catacombs? Well they could pull it off but it will extremely frustrating. So yea you will see it. Just not TOO much of it (Or maybe you might. Idk. Too early to tell). 

Sigh.

The point is there's no such thing as a pure dps player in this game.

You can trait for all damage. You can gear for al +power. You can only take utility skills that do some amount of damage. Andd you will STILL have support/control abilities in your repetoire. Using things only for damage purposes is just a sign of a bad player.

The only way I could even see not ACCIDENTALLY doing support/control is a thief that is aggressively using one of the few abilities that does damage only...at the exclusion of everything else.   Only because of the initiative system at that.

Anyone else...I mean just playing whackamole with anything not on cooldown is going to put out cripples, blinds etc.   Every weapon has some secondary effects.