why do you think guild wars is goign to sell 30 million copies.  That's very unrealistic.  My guess is 6 million by the end of 2013.  I only said 10 million copies because that's what diablo 3 sold.

And I'm not even talking about Guild Wars 2.  I'm talking about b2p in general.  They always try to make an extra here and there.

Originally posted by laokoko

Huh? 600 million dollar won't cover that? good day sir.

Not to mention we probably have to pay for expansion.  That don't cover future investment?

I dont' know how much GW2 cost to make.  I dont' know how much it need to keep the server up.  Before you talk crap to me, please show me the financial information.  Bye

And I'm telling you they don't get the full amount you think they get.  Much less get over HALF A BILLION at launch.  You're out of your flipping mind.

We have to pay for expansion.  Okay.  And?  You think their workers are working for free?  You don't think they still have to pay salaries, bills, taxes etc...?  

We don't need specific financial information to know how basic economics and business works.  There are analysts for a reason.  There's a reason forecasts, while not always correct, are within a ball park range.

And you're right.  You don't know.  Anything really.

Originally posted by laokoko

why do you think guild wars is goign to sell 30 million copies.  That's very unrealistic.  My guess is 6 million by the end of 2013.  I only said 10 million copies because that's what diablo 3 sold.

And I'm not even talking about Guild Wars 2.  I'm talking about b2p in general.  They always try to make an extra here and there.

And that's a bad thing how?

How is a company making money a bad thing?

Originally posted by laokoko

Originally posted by Aelious

Originally posted by laokoko

And just so you know no one sells box or expansion in asia.  All wow expansion is free in asia.  Expansion for every single mmorpg in asia is free.  The game itself is free too.  You don't need to buy box for wow or aion etc just the sub free.  Before you tell me no one cares about what happen in asia, I just want to point it out that company do whatever they want to do to make more money even if they have already make enough money.

 

They have a completely different model and does not relate to this topic.

it's mainly a response to the person who said almost all p2p and b2p sell expansion.  Someone brought it up in this long discussion.

Dont' get me wrong.  I love the b2p model.  I'm just disappointed companies still trying to milk us through like RMAH, cashshop etc.  Let's say GW2 sells like 10million copies like diablo3 (thoug I doubt it'll sell that much).  That's 600 million already, are all of you still goign to defend their cashshop etc?

And I'll stop bitching about GW2.  I love it, so don't make it sound i hate it.  I'm just QQing or bashing people like all the mature people do on game forum.

Wait a Minute, are you serious, People in Asia don't have to pay for Box prices and Expansions for their MMO's?? ???

How the hell is that happening there, and in America and Europe we still have to pay for MOP for WOW as well as buy the box for all the other MMO out there!!!!!

But really, all MMO in America and Europe requires you to pay for Expansions, but still how do you get in on that in getting them for free???

Unfortunately I am in America, so is there any way that I can get MMO's for free here in America, I have always wanted to try Tera as well as TSW and Hundred's of other MMO's, but they all require me to buy a Box price, as well as all the expansions that they already have even if some is only  $6.99 and some is $50.00 and others in between and they also require me to subscribe.

I am serious, I never knew that Asian's gets all their new MMO's without Box Prices or have to pay for Expansions and they get to play them for free, if it was at Internet Cafe's I understand, but still it requires internet time, but I am talking about playing it at home like most do in America.

Originally posted by Lucioon

Wait a Minute, are you serious, People in Asia don't have to pay for Box prices and Expansions for their MMO's?? ???

How the hell is that happening there, and in America and Europe we still have to pay for MOP for WOW as well as buy the box for all the other MMO out there!!!!!

But really, all MMO in America and Europe requires you to pay for Expansions, but still how do you get in on that in getting them for free???

Unfortunately I am in America, so is there any way that I can get MMO's for free here in America, I have always wanted to try Tera as well as TSW and Hundred's of other MMO's, but they all require me to buy a Box price, as well as all the expansions that they already have even if some is only  $6.99 and some is $50.00 and others in between and they also require me to subscribe.

I am serious, I never knew that Asian's gets all their new MMO's without Box Prices or have to pay for Expansions and they get to play them for free, if it was at Internet Cafe's I understand, but still it requires internet time, but I am talking about playing it at home like most do in America.

He's misleading you.  There's a reason why you don't have to pay box prices in places like China.

http://wow.joystiq.com/2010/09/24/the-lawbringer-wow-in-china/

My cousins live in South Korea and last I visisted them, they had a very standard home family PC that was only good for browsing.  Why?  They spent the majority of their time in internet cafes, that cost money to go to.  

While they may not pay for box prices, the people who aren't time managed by their government spend as much or even more than NA/EUs do just to play a MMO.

Originally posted by Nanfoodle
As long as it all works out to being less then 15 bucks a month I dont care how they slice it. The first MMO to offer quality at a fair pirce is gona make a lot of money. I hope ANet is smart enough to do that. As far as I am concerned, its time there was a price war in the MMO market because its been a long time since any MMO has been worth 15 bucks a month.

 +1

I could not agree more with what you have written, all these companies are interested in is milking everyone for as much as they can. As they bring out more contenet it drops in quality too, as they run out of ideas and just seem to replicate previous content but with other bells and whistles on it. I cannot ever remember an MMO which has made any major content changes which improved any part of their game significantly.

Bandit

Shop currency can be purchased from in game currency as well as real money so everyone regardless of their patience level can access those items. I think you will find that game mechanics and possibly new gear will be upgraded for everyone on expansion release, it will only be major  content that most people can't access without the expansion. They are a business and like EVERY other business in the world they want to make money, it is the way they are going about it that sets them apart as they have created an evironment where real money doesn't impact on the game its self (expansions excluded)  I for one love the buisiness model they have chosen. 

Just sayin

Originally posted by laokoko

why do you think guild wars is goign to sell 30 million copies.  That's very unrealistic.  My guess is 6 million by the end of 2013.  I only said 10 million copies because that's what diablo 3 sold.

And I'm not even talking about Guild Wars 2.  I'm talking about b2p in general.  They always try to make an extra here and there.

I think rykim said it best.

They are a BUSINESS first and foremost. The sole purpose of their existance is to make money. ArenaNet is NOT A CHARITY! If they can make money with something and get away with it, then they will. The difference is they are being careful not to anger their customers or move away from their core philosophy. This in turn may net them more money in the long run. People tend to be less stringent with their wallet if they feel like they aren't being forced to purchase anything.

And as I said, they do NOT get all of the 600 million that would be generated off of 10 million sales of standard edition.

They have retail costs, distribution costs, taxes, credit card fees, manufacturing costs, standard operating costs, more taxes, employee costs (250 employees that cost 100k+ each are expensive), the cost of their initial investment, not to mention server costs, bandwidth costs (of both GW2 AND GW1), and more that I probably can't think of right now. Not to mention they have to invest in developing future content and expansions.

After all of this, there is very little profit to be made. Most likely not enough to make investors or NCSoft happy.

What you call greedy, I call business. If they aren't trying to make as much money as they can, they wouldn't be in business today. There's a reason you don't run a business.

I'll end by repeating what I said, what Rykim said, and what I said in my last post:

ArenaNet is a BUSINESS. A business' sole existence is to make money by providing a good and service you will pay for.

Originally posted by rykim86

Originally posted by laokoko

Huh? 600 million dollar won't cover that? good day sir.

Not to mention we probably have to pay for expansion.  That don't cover future investment?

I dont' know how much GW2 cost to make.  I dont' know how much it need to keep the server up.  Before you talk crap to me, please show me the financial information.  Bye

And I'm telling you they don't get the full amount you think they get.  Much less get over HALF A BILLION at launch.  You're out of your flipping mind.

We have to pay for expansion.  Okay.  And?  You think their workers are working for free?  You don't think they still have to pay salaries, bills, taxes etc...?  

We don't need specific financial information to know how basic economics and business works.  There are analysts for a reason.  There's a reason forecasts, while not always correct, are within a ball park range.

And you're right.  You don't know.  Anything really.

So as a guy who have no idea what kind of budget GW2 have is telling me crap.

Do you think GW2 will even sell 2 million copy if it's P2P.  That's the whole point of GW2 being B2P isn't it?

Take SWTOR, Aion, Warhammer online, LOTRO, do you think any of those game make 600 million in their life time?

Even if they did, GW2 will make more just from selling expansion.

You guys must be delusional when you think 600 million won't cover all the expense plus make alot of extra afterwards.

And you know what?  I'm sick of GW1 fanbois telling me there's no need of P2P since it cost nearly nothing to maintain the GW1 server(from NCsoft financial report).  Now GW2 fanbois is arguing with me they won't make enough if they dont' sell stuff in cashshop.

Originally posted by rykim86

Originally posted by Lucioon

Wait a Minute, are you serious, People in Asia don't have to pay for Box prices and Expansions for their MMO's?? ???

How the hell is that happening there, and in America and Europe we still have to pay for MOP for WOW as well as buy the box for all the other MMO out there!!!!!

But really, all MMO in America and Europe requires you to pay for Expansions, but still how do you get in on that in getting them for free???

Unfortunately I am in America, so is there any way that I can get MMO's for free here in America, I have always wanted to try Tera as well as TSW and Hundred's of other MMO's, but they all require me to buy a Box price, as well as all the expansions that they already have even if some is only  $6.99 and some is $50.00 and others in between and they also require me to subscribe.

I am serious, I never knew that Asian's gets all their new MMO's without Box Prices or have to pay for Expansions and they get to play them for free, if it was at Internet Cafe's I understand, but still it requires internet time, but I am talking about playing it at home like most do in America.

He's misleading you.  There's a reason why you don't have to pay box prices in places like China.

http://wow.joystiq.com/2010/09/24/the-lawbringer-wow-in-china/

My cousins live in South Korea and last I visisted them, they had a very standard home family PC that was only good for browsing.  Why?  They spent the majority of their time in internet cafes, that cost money to go to.  

While they may not pay for box prices, the people who aren't time managed by their government spend as much or even more than NA/EUs do just to play a MMO.

I think your delusional if you think people in asia especially Koreans(south koreans) can't "afford" pc and internet at home.  I live in asia and I have internet at home, and pretty much every family out there in the city.

People like to play at internet cafe because of the culture and not always the price.

Originally posted by laokoko

Originally posted by rykim86

Originally posted by laokoko

Huh? 600 million dollar won't cover that? good day sir.

Not to mention we probably have to pay for expansion.  That don't cover future investment?

I dont' know how much GW2 cost to make.  I dont' know how much it need to keep the server up.  Before you talk crap to me, please show me the financial information.  Bye

And I'm telling you they don't get the full amount you think they get.  Much less get over HALF A BILLION at launch.  You're out of your flipping mind.

We have to pay for expansion.  Okay.  And?  You think their workers are working for free?  You don't think they still have to pay salaries, bills, taxes etc...?  

We don't need specific financial information to know how basic economics and business works.  There are analysts for a reason.  There's a reason forecasts, while not always correct, are within a ball park range.

And you're right.  You don't know.  Anything really.

So as a guy who have no idea what kind of budget GW2 have is telling me crap.

Do you think GW2 will even sell 2 million copy if it's P2P.  That's the whole point of GW2 being B2P isn't it?

Take SWTOR, Aion, Warhammer online, LOTRO, do you think any of those game make 600 million in their life time?

Even if they did, GW2 will make more just from selling expansion.

You guys must be delusional when you think 600 million won't cover all the expense plus make alot of extra afterwards.

And you know what?  I'm sick of GW1 fanbois telling me there's no need of P2P since it cost nearly nothing to maintain the GW1 server(from NCsoft financial report).  Now GW2 fanbois is arguing with me they won't make enough if they dont' sell stuff in cashshop.

 

And you're still missing the most basic point in this "debate".

ArenaNet is not making over half a billion.  Not in revenue, and especially not in PROFIT.  

Never said selling boxes wouldn't cover most if not all their initial investment.  But as like other PROFIT corporations, they'll make money where they see a market for.  And there is most definitely a market.  WoWs sparkly, magical flying horse is proof enough.

Originally posted by laokoko

Originally posted by rykim86

Originally posted by Lucioon

Wait a Minute, are you serious, People in Asia don't have to pay for Box prices and Expansions for their MMO's?? ???

How the hell is that happening there, and in America and Europe we still have to pay for MOP for WOW as well as buy the box for all the other MMO out there!!!!!

But really, all MMO in America and Europe requires you to pay for Expansions, but still how do you get in on that in getting them for free???

Unfortunately I am in America, so is there any way that I can get MMO's for free here in America, I have always wanted to try Tera as well as TSW and Hundred's of other MMO's, but they all require me to buy a Box price, as well as all the expansions that they already have even if some is only  $6.99 and some is $50.00 and others in between and they also require me to subscribe.

I am serious, I never knew that Asian's gets all their new MMO's without Box Prices or have to pay for Expansions and they get to play them for free, if it was at Internet Cafe's I understand, but still it requires internet time, but I am talking about playing it at home like most do in America.

He's misleading you.  There's a reason why you don't have to pay box prices in places like China.

http://wow.joystiq.com/2010/09/24/the-lawbringer-wow-in-china/

My cousins live in South Korea and last I visisted them, they had a very standard home family PC that was only good for browsing.  Why?  They spent the majority of their time in internet cafes, that cost money to go to.  

While they may not pay for box prices, the people who aren't time managed by their government spend as much or even more than NA/EUs do just to play a MMO.

I think your delusional if you think people in asia especially Koreans(south koreans) can't "afford" pc and internet at home.  I live in asia and I have internet at home, and pretty much every family out there in the city.

People like to play at internet cafe because of the culture and not always the price.

When did I say they couldn't afford it?  I said they spend most of their online time while in an internet cafe.  I know, because I have family there and have seen it first hand.

The point of that was to show that the cost of playing in Asia isn't cheaper than in NA or EU or other parts of the world.  

Originally posted by rykim86

Originally posted by laokoko

Originally posted by rykim86

Originally posted by Lucioon

Wait a Minute, are you serious, People in Asia don't have to pay for Box prices and Expansions for their MMO's?? ???

How the hell is that happening there, and in America and Europe we still have to pay for MOP for WOW as well as buy the box for all the other MMO out there!!!!!

But really, all MMO in America and Europe requires you to pay for Expansions, but still how do you get in on that in getting them for free???

Unfortunately I am in America, so is there any way that I can get MMO's for free here in America, I have always wanted to try Tera as well as TSW and Hundred's of other MMO's, but they all require me to buy a Box price, as well as all the expansions that they already have even if some is only  $6.99 and some is $50.00 and others in between and they also require me to subscribe.

I am serious, I never knew that Asian's gets all their new MMO's without Box Prices or have to pay for Expansions and they get to play them for free, if it was at Internet Cafe's I understand, but still it requires internet time, but I am talking about playing it at home like most do in America.

He's misleading you.  There's a reason why you don't have to pay box prices in places like China.

http://wow.joystiq.com/2010/09/24/the-lawbringer-wow-in-china/

My cousins live in South Korea and last I visisted them, they had a very standard home family PC that was only good for browsing.  Why?  They spent the majority of their time in internet cafes, that cost money to go to.  

While they may not pay for box prices, the people who aren't time managed by their government spend as much or even more than NA/EUs do just to play a MMO.

I think your delusional if you think people in asia especially Koreans(south koreans) can't "afford" pc and internet at home.  I live in asia and I have internet at home, and pretty much every family out there in the city.

People like to play at internet cafe because of the culture and not always the price.

When did I say they couldn't afford it?  I said they spend most of their online time while in an internet cafe.  I know, because I have family there and have seen it first hand.

The point of that was to show that the cost of playing in Asia isn't cheaper than in NA or EU or other parts of the world.  

So the cost of playing in Aisa isn't cheaper because people "like to hang out" in internet cafe?

That dont' even have anything to do with anything.  First of all, they dont' even need to go to the internet cafe.  They just like to go to internet cafe.  And people go to internet cafe because many of them are real life friend who play together.  Some are doing competitive team for online game. 

Originally posted by rykim86

Originally posted by laokoko

Originally posted by rykim86

Originally posted by laokoko

Huh? 600 million dollar won't cover that? good day sir.

Not to mention we probably have to pay for expansion.  That don't cover future investment?

I dont' know how much GW2 cost to make.  I dont' know how much it need to keep the server up.  Before you talk crap to me, please show me the financial information.  Bye

And I'm telling you they don't get the full amount you think they get.  Much less get over HALF A BILLION at launch.  You're out of your flipping mind.

We have to pay for expansion.  Okay.  And?  You think their workers are working for free?  You don't think they still have to pay salaries, bills, taxes etc...?  

We don't need specific financial information to know how basic economics and business works.  There are analysts for a reason.  There's a reason forecasts, while not always correct, are within a ball park range.

And you're right.  You don't know.  Anything really.

So as a guy who have no idea what kind of budget GW2 have is telling me crap.

Do you think GW2 will even sell 2 million copy if it's P2P.  That's the whole point of GW2 being B2P isn't it?

Take SWTOR, Aion, Warhammer online, LOTRO, do you think any of those game make 600 million in their life time?

Even if they did, GW2 will make more just from selling expansion.

You guys must be delusional when you think 600 million won't cover all the expense plus make alot of extra afterwards.

And you know what?  I'm sick of GW1 fanbois telling me there's no need of P2P since it cost nearly nothing to maintain the GW1 server(from NCsoft financial report).  Now GW2 fanbois is arguing with me they won't make enough if they dont' sell stuff in cashshop.

 

And you're still missing the most basic point in this "debate".

ArenaNet is not making over half a billion.  Not in revenue, and especially not in PROFIT.  

Never said selling boxes wouldn't cover most if not all their initial investment.  But as like other PROFIT corporations, they'll make money where they see a market for.  And there is most definitely a market.  WoWs sparkly, magical flying horse is proof enough.

Do I ever say Arenanet is making over half a billion in porfit?  How many games even make close to that? 

I'm saying they already are and will be making alot of money. 

Originally posted by laokoko

Do I ever say Arenanet is making over half a billion in porfit?  How many games even make close to that? 

I'm saying they already are and will be making alot of money. 

I'm just disappointed companies still trying to milk us through like RMAH, cashshop etc.  Let's say GW2 sells like 10million copies like diablo3 (thoug I doubt it'll sell that much).  That's 600 million already, are all of you still goign to defend their cashshop etc?

You used it as an example.....sigh.  Don't backtrack to cover up your ridiculous comments.

And that's the point.  They were never going to make anywhere close to that in profit.  And factor in all the deductions I and others have pointed out (go and actually read them), the profit margin is even smaller.

You seem sour because you think after a company makes an X amount of profit, that's where they should stop.  Ummm, no.  That's not business.  Some people will call it greed.  I call it taking care of your employees, their pensions, their health and continuing to do what you love to do.

And there is no milking when there is an option to use the cash shop in GW2.  It is not needed to play through the game and "complete" it.

Originally posted by rykim86

Originally posted by laokoko

Do I ever say Arenanet is making over half a billion in porfit?  How many games even make close to that? 

I'm saying they already are and will be making alot of money. 

I'm just disappointed companies still trying to milk us through like RMAH, cashshop etc.  Let's say GW2 sells like 10million copies like diablo3 (thoug I doubt it'll sell that much).  That's 600 million already, are all of you still goign to defend their cashshop etc?

You used it as an example.....sigh.  Don't backtrack to cover up your ridiculous comments.

And that's the point.  They were never going to make anywhere close to that in profit.  And factor in all the deductions I and others have pointed out (go and actually read them), the profit margin is even smaller.

You seem sour because you think after a company makes an X amount of profit, that's where they should stop.  Ummm, no.  That's not business.  Some people will call it greed.  I call it taking care of your employees, their pensions, their health and continuing to do what you love to do.

And there is no milking when there is an option to use the cash shop in GW2.  It is not needed to play through the game and "complete" it.

 

ya I used it as an example.  Just like you have no idea what the budget of development for GW2 is, 20m?50m? 100m?  and read my post, I said I dont' think GW2 is goign to sell 10 million copies.  And read my previous post I said my guess is 6 million copies by the end of 2 years.

also before you tell me GW2 can't make "enough money", tell me the advertisement cost? expense?  ongoing cost to keep the server up?  You don't know for sure unless you have actual fact.

I'm just saying if you think GW2 can't make enough money purely from box sale to break even and make a profit you are probably delusional.  Not saying it will, I'm saying you don't know.  Since GW2 will most likely sell alot of copies.  And even if GW2 makes only 100 million or 200-300 million from expention etc that's bad? 

And I'm whinning because I'm cheap, and don't want to pay extra for character slots? why can't I whine?  I'm not saying there's any problem ANet trying to milk us of money.

WoW....

$15 a month x 12 months = $180 (few large patches yay)

One expansion a year $40

Total = $220

So even if they did two expansions a year at $40..

$40 + $40 = $80

You save...$140

That is the equivalent to 44 (rounding up) Big Macs....

Which is 23,760 calories!  Therefore Guild Wars 2 will make us all fat!

Originally posted by Auzy

WoW....

$15 a month x 12 months = $180 (few large patches yay)

One expansion a year $40

Total = $220

 

So even if they did two expansions a year at $40..

$40 + $40 = $80

You save...$140

 

That is the equivalent to 44 (rounding up) Big Macs....

Which is 23,760 calories!  Therefore Guild Wars 2 will make us all fat!

Those monsters!

Originally posted by laokoko

ya I used it as an example.  Just like you have no idea what the budget of development for GW2 is, 20m?50m? 100m?  and read my post, I said I dont' think GW2 is goign to sell 10 million copies.  And read my previous post I said my guess is 6 million copies by the end of 2 years.

also before you tell me GW2 can't make "enough money", tell me the advertisement cost? expense?  ongoing cost to keep the server up?  You don't know for sure unless you have actual fact.

I'm just saying if you think GW2 can't make enough money purely from box sale to break even and make a profit you are probably delusional.  Not saying it will, I'm saying you don't know.  Since GW2 will most likely sell alot of copies.  And even if GW2 makes only 100 million or 200-300 million from expention etc that's bad? 

And I'm whinning because I'm cheap, and don't want to pay extra for character slots? why can't I whine?  I'm not saying there's any problem ANet trying to milk us of money.

 

Now we've hit the level of outright deluding and lying to yourself.  Also the most contradictory post in a long time.  

You want to whine...do whine...say you have no problem with ArenaNet making money than say...

That's quite lame.  You need to pay extra for bank slots, bag slots, character slots.

It's beginning to look like all those lame f2p games out there.

Diablo 3 looks like a pay 2 win games with real money auction house.

Where goes the buy 2 play model with no string attach.

Yes.  You definitely have no problem with ArenaNet making money at all.  Nope.  Not at all.  Never.  Nada.  

All righty, another MMO troll strikes again.  I'm done here.