Originally posted by miggidyMack

Originally posted by bcbully

I didn't start this fire though. When you hype a game by  telling people  "The whole game is end game." The turn around and say "We do have a end game." That endgame will be evaluated. 

Your writing here isn't all that great, but it reads like you're saying that the two statements, "the whole game is end game," and "we do have end game" are mutually exclusive. As though this indicates some sort of "flip-flop" on ArenaNet's part; but doesn't the statement "we do have end game, the whole game is end game" make sense? In other words, there is stuff to do at level 80: the same stuff you'll have been doing the whole time. There's no sudden shift in how you play the game.I apologize if that isn't what you meant, but that's how I interpreted it.

 

To get to the heart of your question though, I'll pose one back to you. What is end game? Is it not simply whatever you can do in the game once you've reached the level cap? If so, then I suggest that GW2 has as much end game as any other MMO, if not more. First of all there's PvP, both instanced and open world, with the latter being likely the best since DAoC and the former a potential e-sport. If PvE is more your style, there are achievements, map completion, titles, and you can still grind to get better gear through dynamic events and dungeons, if that's your thing. Really the only thing that seems to be missing is raiding, and that, I'm guessing, is what this is really about.

 

Too often people make the mistake of confusing raids with end game when that is simply not accurate. Raids are not the only type of content that qualify as end game. Personally I don't even think they're a particularly good or interesting type of content and I'm glad to see them go. The barrier they put in place to anyone unwilling or unable to make a significant commitment to the game is bad design and bad for the community, and it's not like they're some amazing bastion of infinitely replayable content. You still end up grinding the same raid over and over again, so other than the demand on players to treat the game like it's a job I really don't see how it's very different than an appropriately challenging 5-man dungeon. They mainly serve as a method for content delivery and character progression, and as long as the game can provide those through other avenues there's really no argument to be made for there being no end game. You can certainly say that there's no raiding, and if that's what you love then unfortunately I think that just means this game is not for you. However I find it pretty disingenous that there are so many posts decrying the lack of end game as a whole and not just the lack of raiding. Just because there's no raiding doesn't mean the game has no hope of longevity: there are plenty of ways to play and improve your character without it.

 

 

TL;DR: End game can be much more than just raiding.

 

Very nice rubuttal sir.  100% AGREED.

*gives Aerowyn a huge /hug 4 that awesome compilation*

Awesome Job! Nu'ff said!

Thank you!

May this help all sides, the Fanboys to find out more of their Game, the Naysayers to even more complain and the undecided ones, which can now decide maybe.

Originally posted by bcbully

 

Of course end game is not all about raiding. I see endgame as progression, as ways to advance you character. I see stat, cosmetic, and ability progression as endgame, aswell as any activity that is different form what you were doing while you were leveling.

 

Feel free to comment Mack, but let's not turn this into our own personal discussion. The title of the thread has been changed. This topic is no longer relevant.

 

Let me highlight those 2 statements you just made above?  First the teal blue:  Read my post here http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/5191695#5191695 or the main post from GW2Guru here http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/46603-faq-equipment-attributes-and-you-updated/

Lastly, I just want you to think about what you said in what I outlined in light green above!  You can not even be remotely serious to consider that endgame has to be different from the level up portion?  In what MMO bible does it say that pre-level cap and post-level cap must be so different?  This is the mentality of a WoW cloner, someone who doesnt understand the epitome of all that is wrong in MMO gaming these days and someone who defintely doesnt UNDERSTAND that 99% of all MMO problems lay at the feet of why does both portions of the game become so different.  Games prior to WoW did not have this problem and yet you seem to think that because a games journey and destination share the same type and style of gameplay then one willk be lacking.  They are not mutually exclusive.  Games like WoW and all their ilk who ahve came. gone, and languished in F2P purgatory can be summed up in this phrase:  Why did this game do a 180 at level cap!

Originally posted by Derpybird

Originally posted by bcbully

Wow you took a lot of time to make this. That being said, the same questions remain. 

 

1. Does GW2 have a viable endgame? There was a game released less than 10 months ago that was crucified for not having a viable endgame.

 2. Does the GW2 cash shop cross the line between fluff and pay to win?

 You don't have to like the questions or me, but 1000's of posts on this forum alone validates that these two things are points on contention amongst gamers about GW2's fundamental design. 

 Nice post. I admire the effort.

WoW lost over a million players this past quarter and it has your traditional "endgame".

The thread on the consumption of content is now up to close to 300 pages on the WoW forums. It makes fascinating reading.

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/4879017939?page=1

You talk like "end game" gear grinds are some kind of nirvana. They're not.

On average, until WoW introducted LFR, only between 5% and 10% of the playerbase ever killed a raid boss. The number of raiding players peaked in Wrath at somewhere between 15% and 20%, which is when I believe they started implementing the progressive content nerfs.

The percentage that actually completed a tier is much lower, with about 1.5% clearing normal firelands.

And I don't think that that people left "that game released 10 months ago" because of lack of endgame but because there was nothing to do. Ilum was broken. There were a handful of dailies you could grind. There were a few flashpoints you could run, if you could get a group together. And not much else. In short, I believe they quit because there wasn't much to actually do, not exclusively because there wasn't multi-tiered raid content.

So how about we just stop pretending that the kind of "end game" content that you're talking about is the make or break of any MMO.

And finally, let's stop pretending the "1000s of posts" are from unique individuals, as opposed to the same small collection of people claiming that the sky is falling.

WoW lost over a million players this quarter because its current endgame content has been beaten. I resubbed to WoW a week ago after approximately five months and there is literally nothing new. So I quit again until MoP arrive when new endgame content will be added.

You do not seem to be really updated regarding WoW yet you shoot this kind of post...

Furthermore, the game is eight years old and you mention that the game loses its players despite the fact that it has endgame content making it sound like the endgame content is not important at all. Maybe you should reformulate it to "WoW still has over nine million players eight years after release and it has your traditional endgame".

I am not really concerned much with this endgame discussion GW 2 vs WoW. I just do not agree with this particular post you made.

Executive summary: Current content beaten hence loss of subs. Game 8 years old hence loss of subs. Endgame important for its unprecedented longterm success.

Well done. I read this yesterday and failed to comment because I was in a hurry but I decided to make a point to pop in and give props for the effort. First thing I noticed was the name change. I am guessing there was some confusion woth the way it was before? Also I noticed more videos. I think I wil direct 2 of my friends to this list because they seem deadset on trying to convince us to return to WoW and the main way they do so is by attacking the unknowns of GW2. I have noticed 2 videos that give good examples to a couple of their uncertainties.

/edit Ah  I see where the confusion was after reading where I left off. I thought your origional title was appropriate and I got what ya meant.

Originally posted by RizelStar

Originally posted by -Inferno-

Thanks for creating this nice collection of informative videos about GW2. I hope Arena Net will add some social activities in the game soon after launch. At the moment there is a lot of fun stuff to do, but not much that does not involve fighting/gathering/crafting to some extent. Housing is hopefully not too far away after launch. With a great composer such as Jeremy Soule, I look forward to more stuff involving music (i.e. a player-made music system like in LOTRO). Would you like to include the video about a certain underwater pipe organ in the puzzles section? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcUjwdJLQ78 - contains spoiler!) Looking forward to the stress test today.Only 2,5 hours to go :-)

The 30(was it 30?) social activities will be in at launch.

Like Keg brawl was one of them, and there are more just not in beta.

Not all activities will invole fighting.

Each capital city  will have unique social activities.

I don't know if they count the "chess" thing in the Asura starting area as an activity.

Hmm I am a bit wary of things not in beta and expecting them at release. My experience has been that things, which are not in beta, are not there at release either. However I am not immune to pleasant surprises. Maybe GW2 will have some in store for us ^^ A great MMORPG needs "fluff" to do, something which SWTOR lacked and was one of the reasons why it failed. If GW2 can deliver that aswell, I think I'll be one happy player for years to come.

Originally posted by swordmark45
gratz on the pin

just noticed the sticky:) I dunno if its good or bad lots of people seem to pass over sticky's lol:P

Originally posted by -Inferno-

Thanks for creating this nice collection of informative videos about GW2. I hope Arena Net will add some social activities in the game soon after launch. At the moment there is a lot of fun stuff to do, but not much that does not involve fighting/gathering/crafting to some extent. Housing is hopefully not too far away after launch. With a great composer such as Jeremy Soule, I look forward to more stuff involving music (i.e. a player-made music system like in LOTRO). Would you like to include the video about a certain underwater pipe organ in the puzzles section? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcUjwdJLQ78 - contains spoiler!) Looking forward to the stress test today.Only 2,5 hours to go :-)

added non spoiler version of the puzzle to the extras section:)

Originally posted by Blitz555
+1 High Five     Might want to add something about DX 11 so people will stop creating new threads on it lol.

ill look around tonight although probably won't find much there's good arguments for both sides 

Nice post Aerowyn! Very helpful!

btw i found very helpful these guys Gamebreaker:Buildcast especially for my Necro & Mesmer:D

http://www.gamebreaker.tv/video-game-shows/guild-wars-video/buildcast/

Originally posted by Dietengu

Nice post Aerowyn! Very helpful!

btw i found very helpful these guys Gamebreaker:Buildcast especially for my Necro & Mesmer:D

http://www.gamebreaker.tv/video-game-shows/guild-wars-video/buildcast/

good videos I was thinking of starting a new section just for profession guides

Originally posted by Aerowyn

Originally posted by Dietengu

Nice post Aerowyn! Very helpful!

btw i found very helpful these guys Gamebreaker:Buildcast especially for my Necro & Mesmer:D

http://www.gamebreaker.tv/video-game-shows/guild-wars-video/buildcast/

good videos I was thinking of starting a new section just for profession guides

That would be awesome.  I had a blast on my Warrior today in WvW but I need to do a little homework.  I mainly enjoy using a 2hand Hammer for the knockdowns and AoE damage and rifle for the single target pew pewing. 

Originally posted by Blitz555

Originally posted by Aerowyn

Originally posted by Dietengu

Nice post Aerowyn! Very helpful!

btw i found very helpful these guys Gamebreaker:Buildcast especially for my Necro & Mesmer:D

http://www.gamebreaker.tv/video-game-shows/guild-wars-video/buildcast/

good videos I was thinking of starting a new section just for profession guides

That would be awesome.  I had a blast on my Warrior today in WvW but I need to do a little homework.  I mainly enjoy using a 2hand Hammer for the knockdowns and AoE damage and rifle for the single target pew pewing. 

only problem is I only really want to post videos I know are good for giving build advise so Ill probably hold off on adding in that section till I can try out the suggestions in the videos. So probably will be a post launch thing maybe ill start a new thread post launch on pvp and pve builds for all professions. We shall see how much time I have once the game launches:P