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Vanguard: Saga of Heroes

Vanguard: Saga of Heroes 

General Discussion  » Gave it a try sadly i wont be playing,,,,

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73 posts found
  Flaming_MMO

Novice Member

Joined: 2/13/12
Posts: 141

8/09/12 7:31:40 AM#21
Was looking forward to the Vanguard FTP model, now after seeing it, am probably going to uninstall.
  dageeza

Novice Member

Joined: 8/14/04
Posts: 577

8/09/12 7:35:33 AM#22

SOE can call it what they want but all of their old games new F2P models are a freemium system rather than a true F2P system..

True F2P does not limit the races or classes you can play nor do they pop up annoying "go gold now" subscription boxes in your face..

Hopefully PS2 will be true F2P so SOE can see how bad their current freemium models are..

Playing GW2..

  Kilsin

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/12/08
Posts: 153

8/09/12 9:14:22 AM#23
Originally posted by Thillian
Originally posted by ellobo29

Enjoyed the game for the potentcial fun that could be had. Im not saying i had fun... but i could see myself having fun in this game if i subscribed but it had too many problems for me to actually spend money. I dont want to subscribe to ANY game this late in its development........what i want is a Quality F2P that i can occasionaly spend a dollar or 5 once in a while for a cosmetic item.

Thats not what you get here.....too many restrictions for me to call this F2P.

1. Cant use top tier gear that you find as f2p... seriously what up with dat? gold drops are for subscription users only, fook dat! I  find an item off random mob, say to myself oooh thats nice. try to equip it and game says i got to pay to equip an item i already felt i worked for.....

2 Severe bank restrictions,,, your personal inventory is reduced.... i say to myself ok no big deal... i expected that..... Then i find a bank.....YOU CANT EVEN USE HALF THE AVALIABLE SLOTS WTF! you only get 25 slots for free? seriously thats basicly unplayable. So you really believe im only going to find 25 usefull items in game that im going to want to keep around? thats insaine.

3. More then hafl the races and jobs are locked until you pay.....some of this i expected but lock ranger? REALLY?   ya ok, whatever FU.

4. Finally the straw that broke the camels back is..... cant own a home without  subscription, or real pay. im kinda dissapointed by this one.....some might not care but i did.

5. Restriction on how much gold you can have......SERIOUSLY?

 

Let's compare this model with Lotro F2P

Quests:

Lotro = quests available only up to level 20, all quests above that (90% of content) has to be bought via quest packs.

Vangaurd = all quests are free

 

Dungeons:

Lotro = about 80% of all dungeons and raids are locked, including skirmishes, basically all dungeons above level 20 are locked except of dungeons that scale with your level

Vanguard = all dungeons (except end-game raid) are free

 

Auction House

Lotro = 5 items on AH max

Vanguard = no limit on items, but higher fees

 

Gold:

Lotro = Max 3 gold

Vanguard = Max 3 platinum (Equivalent to about 100 gold in Lotro, you will hardly get a platinum piece by level 40) **changed to 2 plat for final Matrix recently

 

Mounts:

Lotro = Can't use permanent mounts

Vanguard = All mounts free

 

Items:

Lotro = no restrictions, but shop items and buffs (like permanent tomes) makes a huge difference (+50 from all tomes to all stats) vs 0, or upgrades to legendary items via shop, etc

Vanguard = All gear available up to raid and legendary items gear is restricted to Common  (Green) with exceptions to a lot of other gear and quest rewards.

 

Inventory and banks:

Lotro = max 3 bags instead of 5. Banks slots are limited.

Vanguard = no limit on bags, bank slots are limited to 25 from 75.  **max 2 bags F2P (50 slot default bag and 1 other up to 60 slot purchased in CS)

 

Crafting:

Lotro = no crafting guilds, which play an important role in crafting 

Vanguard = no limit -- except of housing, if that counts as crafting *Can purchase crafting mats for house in Cash Shop

 

Classes and races:

Lotro = 4 races , 7 classes free (4 races in 9 classes in total)

Vanguard = 8 races, 7 classes free (instead of 19 races and 15 classes) **Can puchase unlockers for all classes and races in Cash Shop

 

Character slots:

Lotro = 2

Vanguard = 4

 

Good post, just fixed a few errors for you.

This F2P Matrix/model isn't as bad as people make out, Vanguard will NEVER be truly F2P...the one thing I have a slight problem with is the restrictions on gear capped at Common (green).

All of us Veterans with Subs even rallied to try and get this changed and we are still hounding the Devs to increase the cap to at least Uncommon (Blue).

This is a trial run to get rid of the bugs and see players comments and reactions to these things though.

Players need to understand this, stop raging and voice their concerns instead, a lot of these issues are being openly addressed by the Devs and are being reviewed.

Less throwing tantrums and move constructive feedback would go along way.

The Official F2P Launch is on the 14th August, around 4 days away, so speak up while they are listening.

  verenov

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/26/08
Posts: 51

8/09/12 9:43:18 AM#24
Originally posted by Thillian
Originally posted by ellobo29

Enjoyed the game for the potentcial fun that could be had. Im not saying i had fun... but i could see myself having fun in this game if i subscribed but it had too many problems for me to actually spend money. I dont want to subscribe to ANY game this late in its development........what i want is a Quality F2P that i can occasionaly spend a dollar or 5 once in a while for a cosmetic item.

Thats not what you get here.....too many restrictions for me to call this F2P.

1. Cant use top tier gear that you find as f2p... seriously what up with dat? gold drops are for subscription users only, fook dat! I  find an item off random mob, say to myself oooh thats nice. try to equip it and game says i got to pay to equip an item i already felt i worked for.....

2 Severe bank restrictions,,, your personal inventory is reduced.... i say to myself ok no big deal... i expected that..... Then i find a bank.....YOU CANT EVEN USE HALF THE AVALIABLE SLOTS WTF! you only get 25 slots for free? seriously thats basicly unplayable. So you really believe im only going to find 25 usefull items in game that im going to want to keep around? thats insaine.

3. More then hafl the races and jobs are locked until you pay.....some of this i expected but lock ranger? REALLY?   ya ok, whatever FU.

4. Finally the straw that broke the camels back is..... cant own a home without  subscription, or real pay. im kinda dissapointed by this one.....some might not care but i did.

5. Restriction on how much gold you can have......SERIOUSLY?

 

Let's compare this model with Lotro F2P

Quests:

Lotro = quests available only up to level 20, all quests above that (90% of content) has to be bought via quest packs.    However, in Lotro you do Deed Grinds which yield Turbine Points. TP points are the currency used to purchase the buyable content in the game. I did enough deeds to unlock Lone Lands (before Turbine included it in the base F2P, 2 Skirmishes (which allow you to get to max level, although LOTS of endless grinding), Trollshaws. Oh, and btw, you can reach level 30+ without buying ANYTHING. Remember you can also buy retail box of LotRO expansions from, say, Amazon at discounted prices and unlock classes, content, etc... without paying Turbine.  It's still buying, I know, but it's an alternative. My point is that the F2P model has restrictions, but you *can* grind your way through the game with what you start with...it just takes a LOT of grind/play/time. But, Turbine runs specials/sales all the time with 50%-75% off these, so earn Turbine Points, accumulate a LOT, wait for a sale, and voila you have more content for free.

Vangaurd = all quests are free

 

Dungeons:

Lotro = about 80% of all dungeons and raids are locked, including skirmishes, basically all dungeons above level 20 are locked except of dungeons that scale with your level See above post, as with the purchase of an area of content comes the dungeons/raids in that area. So, once again you can grind for the TP to unlock these areas/dungeons without spending money.

Vanguard = all dungeons (except end-game raid) are free

 

Auction House

Lotro = 5 items on AH max

Vanguard = no limit on items, but higher fees

 

Gold:

Lotro = Max 3 gold There is an option using TP (earned in-game) to remove this restriction for the account (all characters).

Vanguard = Max 3 platinum (Equivalent to about 100 gold in Lotro, you will hardly get a platinum piece by level 40)

 

Mounts:

Lotro = Can't use permanent mounts  With the earned deeds/TP you can definitely have permamounts. And, you just need the riding skill which is around 95 TPs. Very cheap price that can be earned in an afternoon of deed completions. Without spending any money. This is per-character, so it does need to be purchased for each toon, which CAN become very expensive. I choose only a couple of characters I make sure I want to keep and just get mounts for them. Mounts for alts not viable in my opinion, just for main toons.

Vanguard = All mounts free   Very Nice feature. One thing I always loved about VG was the  mounts at level 10 and the barding/saddle/horseshoes you could get for them. Very immersive system.

 

Items:

Lotro = no restrictions, but shop items and buffs (like permanent tomes) makes a huge difference (+50 from all tomes to all stats) vs 0, or upgrades to legendary items via shop, etc I played without wasting money on tomes. This is a preference only and not really a game-breaking option as these items were introduced specifically for the F2P and not necessary for regular gameplay. However, you can earn TP to get Mines of Moria expansion (or get from Amazon for low price...got mine for around 5 bucks that opens MoM, Legendary Items, new class) or get these tomes. This is a very good expansion and worth the price. Moria is awesome, imo.

Vanguard = All gear available up to raid and legendary items Very nice feature and one that should be included as these items were necessary in the normal game.

 

Inventory and banks:

Lotro = max 3 bags instead of 5. Banks slots are limited.  This is normal for just about any F2P game out there. The game is playable with less bags, but you'll be making more trips to the vendors without them.

Vanguard = no limit on bags, bank slots are limited  Nice feature, but I would gladly give up the extra bag space for craftable homes/ships in the F2P models. Bag space isn't what made/makes VG different from other MMOs. Among the most important was the ability to create player-made neighborhoods/homes and the ability to create ships and sail those.  I believe that bag space should not be limited in any F2P, but it's sadly a limit that most F2P-making companies agree on.

 

Crafting:

Lotro = no crafting guilds, which play an important role in crafting Actually, there are numerous faction NPC Guilds in LotRO if I remember correctly, that you can do quests for to unlock higher-tier crafting. Both games are great in this aspect.

Vanguard = no limit -- except of housing, if that counts as crafting Of course this counts as crafting. In VG, it was a huge part. It's the ultimate craftable item apart from building ships. Huge turnoff for many players, including myself. Ship and Home crafting play a huge part in the appeal of Vanguard. To make this subscription-only is a huge mistake on SOE's part.

 

Classes and races:

Lotro = 4 races , 7 classes free (4 races in 9 classes in total) Seems to be more in LotRO's favor seeing a HUGE cut in playable races in VG.

Vanguard = 8 races, 7 classes free (instead of 19 races and 15 classes) A LOT of missing choices here. Really disappointed in this.

 

Character slots:

Lotro = 2 This is definitely in favor of VG, as 2 slots is just stupid and not viable at all. But, play a hunter, earn deeds/TP and get to work unlocking some other slots!

Vanguard = 4 Much more viable, in my opinion, although with so many class/race combinations cut out of the equation, it's a moot point really.

Overall, I think the Turbine system is one of the best F2P models around. The main reason I say this is that you can literally earn content through grind/play. This is something that a lot of other F2P games are missing. I hope that SOE revisits VG to make it more on-par with Turbine's system (my opinion, as I really enjoy their F2P model) so that it's possible for those of us not wanting to subscribe an option of playing their game and earning currency to purchase some account-wide permanent expansion options. I've been an advocate for VG going F2P for a few years now. When I heard that SOE finally decided to do this, I was ecstatic. However, after reading the limitations placed on F2P I was sorely disappointed. I think they should definitely have 3 tiers of account features. Those that are F2P (never bought the game/subscribed), Premium Players (those that bought the game and subscribed at one point), and then the VIPs (those that buy game/subscribe). They should then have the F2P very limited (as such as it is now, but allow the brotherhood/caravan feature), have Premium given Brotherhood/caravan features, extra bag slots, all race/class combination, no crafting limit, and have VIPs earn VGP (vanguard points or whatever) each month, all race/class combos, ALL bag/bank/AH slots, no currency limit, etc. Also, have some really good cosmetic items, experience tomes, etc...

 

This is of course my opinion. This is what would make VG a viable F2P game...for me. My largest beef with VG is that those of us that at one time gave them money are not rewarded in the least unless we continue to subscribe. I bought 2 collector's edition games (one for me, one fo the wife) and we subscribed for awhile. I believe those of us that did this (or something similar) should be treated a little better than someone who is here for the first time, never paid, never subscribed, etc.

 

 

"I am handicapped...I'm psychotic."

  verenov

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/26/08
Posts: 51

8/09/12 9:45:52 AM#25
Good post, just fixed a few errors for you.

This F2P Matrix/model isn't as bad as people make out, Vanguard will NEVER be truly F2P...the one thing I have a slight problem with is the restrictions on gear capped at Common (green).

All of us Veterans with Subs even rallied to try and get this changed and we are still hounding the Devs to increase the cap to at least Uncommon (Blue).

This is a trial run to get rid of the bugs and see players comments and reactions to these things though.

Players need to understand this, stop raging and voice their concerns instead, a lot of these issues are being openly addressed by the Devs and are being reviewed.

Less throwing tantrums and move constructive feedback would go along way.

The Official F2P Launch is on the 14th August, around 4 days away, so speak up while they are listening.

This seems to be a failing of the SOE F2P in my opinion. If it's not gear, it's abilities (EQ2 F2P). I just wish they'd look at more successful F2P models and try to totally scrap the gear/ability capping.

"I am handicapped...I'm psychotic."

  UnleadedRev

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/07/10
Posts: 313

8/09/12 9:48:54 AM#26

When you all gonna learn:

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS FREE TO PLAY

Fear the Alien, the Psyker, the Heretic, the moronic Steam Moderator.

  verenov

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/26/08
Posts: 51

8/09/12 10:00:21 AM#27
Originally posted by UnleadedRev

When you all gonna learn:

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS FREE TO PLAY

Sure there is. I just went into great detail stating that in Lord of the Rings Online I can play the game for free. I grind deeds in-game to earn Turbine Points that can then be spent on new content. I can purchase expansions, quests, skirmishes, dungeones, etc...using my time spent playing the game without HAVING to spend a dime of real money. I suggest you do some research on the different types of F2P models and compare them before generalizing all F2P models into one huge sum.

On the other hand, to some people time IS money. So, if it takes time to get currency, and time IS currency, then I guess you're correct. There is NO F2P model...hmmm....

"I am handicapped...I'm psychotic."

  Mardukk

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/05/11
Posts: 1266

8/09/12 10:05:20 AM#28
Originally posted by benit59
I've said before that SoE's idea of F2P is grossly different than say Turbine's. They should clarify and state that the game is free to download and log in..."play" is a little too strong a verb for the actions that take place for free.

While I don't like that they are locking blue items (give me a break SOE) Turbine's model won't even let you do a quest.  That model is 100% unplayable unless you sink some cash into it.

  SpottyGekko

Elite Member

Joined: 9/26/04
Posts: 2421

8/09/12 10:06:53 AM#29
Originally posted by verenov
Good post, just fixed a few errors for you.

This F2P Matrix/model isn't as bad as people make out, Vanguard will NEVER be truly F2P...the one thing I have a slight problem with is the restrictions on gear capped at Common (green).

All of us Veterans with Subs even rallied to try and get this changed and we are still hounding the Devs to increase the cap to at least Uncommon (Blue).

This is a trial run to get rid of the bugs and see players comments and reactions to these things though.

Players need to understand this, stop raging and voice their concerns instead, a lot of these issues are being openly addressed by the Devs and are being reviewed.

Less throwing tantrums and move constructive feedback would go along way.

The Official F2P Launch is on the 14th August, around 4 days away, so speak up while they are listening.

This seems to be a failing of the SOE F2P in my opinion. If it's not gear, it's abilities (EQ2 F2P). I just wish they'd look at more successful F2P models and try to totally scrap the gear/ability capping.

"I just wish they'd look at more successful F2P models"

More successful for whom ? The players ? Or the company's balance sheet ? 

 

SOE are converting all their existing games to F2P. They have also said that all their future MMO's will launch as F2P. No doubt they are busy experimenting with different payment models, so there's a good chance that the Vanguard grid will change yet.

  saker

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/11/04
Posts: 810

Make a WORLD,
Not a Game.

8/09/12 10:10:27 AM#30


Originally posted by Zooce
SOE has a bloated perception of Vanguard's F2P appeal.  They also have a full-on nuissance-based matrix, ensuring free players grow annoyed before enjoying themselves enough to spend cash on an a dated game with unreliable servers and poor dev support.

/uninstalling



I agree on all points! You summed it all up very well. I like this game basically, but $oE's idea of F2P compensates for the huge technical issues they used to have! Although they still have technical issues, had the thing crash to desktop for me already and huge lag spikes... I think $oE just loves to hate this game! They just plain refuse to do anything decent with it! Death by a million cuts.

  mmoguy43

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/31/09
Posts: 2254

8/09/12 10:11:23 AM#31
Originally posted by Mardukk
Originally posted by benit59
I've said before that SoE's idea of F2P is grossly different than say Turbine's. They should clarify and state that the game is free to download and log in..."play" is a little too strong a verb for the actions that take place for free.

While I don't like that they are locking blue items (give me a break SOE) Turbine's model won't even let you do a quest.  That model is 100% unplayable unless you sink some cash into it.

If I'm going to only play VG with the intent to do group content then it is 100% unplayable (by your definition). If I can't get the lengendary and above rewards for doing the hardest group content in the game then there is no reason for me to bother with F2P.

  saker

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/11/04
Posts: 810

Make a WORLD,
Not a Game.

8/09/12 10:12:21 AM#32


Originally posted by SpottyGekko

Originally posted by verenov

Good post, just fixed a few errors for you. This F2P Matrix/model isn't as bad as people make out, Vanguard will NEVER be truly F2P...the one thing I have a slight problem with is the restrictions on gear capped at Common (green). All of us Veterans with Subs even rallied to try and get this changed and we are still hounding the Devs to increase the cap to at least Uncommon (Blue). This is a trial run to get rid of the bugs and see players comments and reactions to these things though. Players need to understand this, stop raging and voice their concerns instead, a lot of these issues are being openly addressed by the Devs and are being reviewed. Less throwing tantrums and move constructive feedback would go along way. The Official F2P Launch is on the 14th August, around 4 days away, so speak up while they are listening.
This seems to be a failing of the SOE F2P in my opinion. If it's not gear, it's abilities (EQ2 F2P). I just wish they'd look at more successful F2P models and try to totally scrap the gear/ability capping.
"I just wish they'd look at more successful F2P models"

More successful for whom ? The players ? Or the company's balance sheet ? 

 

SOE are converting all their existing games to F2P. They have also said that all their future MMO's will launch as F2P. No doubt they are busy experimenting with different payment models, so there's a good chance that the Vanguard grid will change yet.


Well they're not going to make any mint off Vanguard the way they're playing this.
"More successful for whom ? The players ? Or the company's balance sheet ?"
Maybe they should look at someone like Turbine that generally is seen to have done the whole F2P thing right...

  JerYnkFan

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/10/06
Posts: 331

8/09/12 10:12:22 AM#33

Well they announced that in this hotfix they are reducing the price of the potion of unlocking:

 

http://forums.station.sony.com/vg/posts/list.m?topic_id=58133

  User Deleted
8/09/12 10:13:22 AM#34
Originally posted by Starpower

Same here

I don't really care about space,money, chunk or class/race restrictions. I understand a F2P scheme is suppose to bring money in, but the item restriction just means I can't play any of my toons unless I either downgrade their gear or pay a full subscription price of 15 bucks. That would have been OK if the game was worth 15 a month alongside other triple A titles.

Not entirely true. They have gear unlockers which cost about 50c per item, less if you buy them on sale. The items that are restricted are raid and high end group tier.

Not defending the subscription model though, it really is horrible. SoE don't seem to understand that people will spend a bucketload of cash on appearance items, mounts and convenience gear as long as they don't feel pressured into paying just to play on par with other players. I hope more adopt the Aion model and not SoEs.

  jusomdude

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 11/21/06
Posts: 2260

8/09/12 10:14:52 AM#35
I don't really get SOE. They offer so much for F2P in DCUO and offer so little for their other F2P games.
  verenov

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/26/08
Posts: 51

8/09/12 10:16:39 AM#36

"I just wish they'd look at more successful F2P models"

More successful for whom ? The players ? Or the company's balance sheet ? 

SOE are converting all their existing games to F2P. They have also said that all their future MMO's will launch as F2P. No doubt they are busy experimenting with different payment models, so there's a good chance that the Vanguard grid will change yet.

 

I know, right? Actually, I believe it requires a good balance of making money for the company and offering players a good play experience.  Here's an article that shows how Turbine turned their company around with their F2P model.

http://massively.joystiq.com/2011/01/06/turbine-lotro-revenue-tripled-since-going-f2p/

Here's an article that shows DC Universe Online make a LOT of money switching to their F2P model (notice the percentage increase of income)

http://massively.joystiq.com/2011/11/03/dcuo-registers-120-000-new-players-sees-concurrent-user-spike/

Now, these are articles from last year so these numbers have changed either up or down, I'm sure. However, both games are still going pretty strong and making them money. I played both and really enjoyed both.

You're right, though. It seems that some companies are out for ONE thing only: profits. However, I believe that some do care about their customer base, especially if they realize that it's a symbiotic relationship. Happy customers = paying/playing customers.

"I am handicapped...I'm psychotic."

  Vesavius

Old School

Joined: 3/08/04
Posts: 7029

Players come for the game, but they stay for the people- Most Devs have forgotten this.

8/09/12 10:16:42 AM#37
Originally posted by ellobo29

i actually like the game...but id have to buy a subscription to enjoy it fully. and im just not in a place in my life where i want to subscribe to any game really. (just lost a job heh).

Its like i dont feel SOE wanted me to stay and at least POPULATE the game.....it feels like a big FU.

 

FU to a non paying customer that has no intention of ever spening a dime on their service?

Who woulda thunk.

  verenov

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/26/08
Posts: 51

8/09/12 10:18:34 AM#38
Originally posted by jusomdude
I don't really get SOE. They offer so much for F2P in DCUO and offer so little for their other F2P games.

Yeah, I noticed this as well. One reason that DCUO is probably the only SOE title I enjoy F2P.  However, I'm downloading/installing the new Vanguard: SoH at the moment and look forward to trying it.

"I am handicapped...I'm psychotic."

  Sovrath

Elite Member

Joined: 1/06/05
Posts: 16602

8/09/12 10:19:10 AM#39
Originally posted by UnleadedRev

When you all gonna learn:

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS FREE TO PLAY

Essentially this is the crux of it.

Ultimately companies want/need to make money. They aren't making these games available out of the goodness of their hearts.

  Xexv

Novice Member

Joined: 6/02/11
Posts: 310

8/09/12 10:20:57 AM#40


Originally posted by evilastro

Originally posted by Starpower Same here I don't really care about space,money, chunk or class/race restrictions. I understand a F2P scheme is suppose to bring money in, but the item restriction just means I can't play any of my toons unless I either downgrade their gear or pay a full subscription price of 15 bucks. That would have been OK if the game was worth 15 a month alongside other triple A titles.
Not entirely true. They have gear unlockers which cost about 50c per item, less if you buy them on sale. The items that are restricted are raid and high end group tier.

Not defending the subscription model though, it really is horrible. SoE don't seem to understand that people will spend a bucketload of cash on appearance items, mounts and convenience gear as long as they don't feel pressured into paying just to play on par with other players. I hope more adopt the Aion model and not SoEs.


This...I mean for God's sake the game and the Vets could do with a break, VG has plenty of ways in which appearance items/convenience stuff could make a mint. I think SoE will eventually move away from their Trial/F2P model, especially with the release of PS2...I just suspect that by that point it may be too late for VG. Instead of giving a limited experience of the world to prospective players and bullying them into a subscription (these people didn't subscribe in the previous years, why now?) just open it up and let them enjoy the world and put money into the bank via convenience/appearance purchases. At the end of the day what VG really needs is an increase in player population - that should be the long-term goal...I'm not sure this F2P model will acheive that.

Xexv Xfire Miniprofile
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