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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » General: Is Leveling Too Easy?

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61 posts found
  dave6660

Elite Member

Joined: 9/26/08
Posts: 2266

"Next time I see you, remind me not to talk to you."

8/08/12 1:40:23 PM#41
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by dave6660
Originally posted by Icewhite

Developer Rock or a Hard Place.

Which would you rather face on the forums?

A) Just bought this game, 8 years behind, won't ever catch up, I'm quitting.

B) Omg ezmode leveling, too fast, I'm quitting.  They don't even have to jog for 40 levels!

 

"Every way you look at this, you lose."--P. Simon

Devs do generally vote for the new player retention direction.  Many will definitely argue against.

 

Another  train of thought I will never understand.  Why do you need to catch up?  Is a players self esteem tied to their level?

In the real world there are always people ahead of you in all facets of life.  Does that mean you should live in a cave and never come out.

 

That reply makes me wonder if you've ever started playing an MMO at any time other than release. After the intiial six months, most MMOs have a massive gap between the people in the newbie area and the main player populace. It's difficult to find a group or sometimes even to level up in that deadzone.

Many devs have acknowledged this problem and have made game changes to work around it. For example, Lineage 2 offers a fasttrack option to quickly get to level 20 and help get you to Giran or whatever the populated town is  (been a few years since I played). WOW realized this issue during development and pushed every player to their capital city by level 10 so they would at least be in the hub of activity. The leveling problem in WoW has not reared its ugly head because, well, with 9 million players you've got a pretty populated world. :) However, the population will eventually lead to a tipping point where that deadzone exits and subs will drop insanely fast if a change isn't made to counter it.

 

To answer you first question, yes.  I started playing Eve Online 6 years after release and did great for myself.  Instead of whining and complaining about everybody else I focused on improving myself.

 

"Why so serious?"
-- The Joker

  Valecruiz

Novice Member

Joined: 5/25/07
Posts: 22

Do what you must.

 
OP  8/08/12 1:50:40 PM#42
Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by Valecruiz

I wholly believe the worst impact WoW had on MMOs was making the end-game content more appealing than the journey itself.  Mind you, I played the ever-living heck out of WoW and I appreciate it's financial success/popularity, but I feel it's lasting impact left too many gamers with a lesser patience for leveling.  Nowadays, it's all about the shinies you receive from the Big Bad Boss

Imagine someone took a road trip.   There were mile-markers for the first 100 miles, but for the remaining 600 miles there were no markers.

Now imagine that person fixated so intensely on the mile-markers and their feeling of progress that their journey was completely ruined for the remaining 600 miles because those markers weren't there.

Meanwhile his wife enjoyed the whole trip, both the markers and the sights ("shinies") along the way.

That's the problem with implying that only leveling is "journey".  The whole game is journey!  Stop fixating on the mile-markers and enjoy the trip!

I understand what you're saying, and to me there IS so much more to the game than just the level progression.  Or at least, there should be.  But take games like Aion, SWToR, etc.  Technically you *DO* have other options to explore before end game, but most of it is garbage like getting crafting to Super Ultra Mega Master or a PvP system that's, once again, really only enjoyed when you get "teh phat lewtz."

So while it may seem like I'm just focusing on feeling excited about going from 17 to 18, in actuality I'm saying modern MMO's are pretty much like playing in a coma until level cap (in that I can recall nothing worthwhile of the experience until I'm in the end-game content).

If not faith, have trust

  madazz

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/07/03
Posts: 1256

8/08/12 3:06:14 PM#43

What has happened to MMO's in general is that the developers have been listening. The people got what they thought they wanted and now everything is the same. On these forums alone it used to be constant complaining about "grinding". Everygame the talk was about the "grind" even when it wasn't bad. Now its all uber easy... pvp has been removed, skills are streamlined... the games are easier and now no one is happy with that either.

 

Maybe the developers need to create a game that you open up, enter your password and it just lets you choose the coolest looking armour, the most powerful skills, and then when you enter the game it says "YOU WON TEH MMO!". So basically a graphical chat system? 

 

More levels, or longer levels would be great... but not when you are repeating stupid instances that run the same way over and over again.

  Theocritus

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/15/08
Posts: 3541

8/08/12 4:07:03 PM#44
        If given the option, I think the majority of gamers today would want to be max level right off the bat and skip leveling altogether.....
  User Deleted
8/08/12 4:10:38 PM#45
I remember back in the day when FFXI was made. It literally took you months to level to max but you know what I enjoyed every second of that. Today mmo players are not what they used to be. They want the quick fix and move on to the next them park weekend bonanza. Eveything is rush rush rush and race to the end because today some gamers out there do not know how to enjoy a real mmo.
  laokoko

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/14/09
Posts: 1845

8/08/12 5:15:16 PM#46

Why does it even matters?  Do all of you stop playing once you hit max level? 

 

 

  madazz

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/07/03
Posts: 1256

8/08/12 5:52:59 PM#47
Originally posted by laokoko

Why does it even matters?  Do all of you stop playing once you hit max level? 

 

 

Well... yeah... most do. What else is there to do? Repeat the same dungeon over and over and over so that we can unlock new stuff and re-do that dungeon over again, albeit easier due to our unlocked goodies?

  laokoko

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/14/09
Posts: 1845

8/08/12 6:04:18 PM#48
Originally posted by madazz
Originally posted by laokoko

Why does it even matters?  Do all of you stop playing once you hit max level? 

 

 

Well... yeah... most do. What else is there to do? Repeat the same dungeon over and over and over so that we can unlock new stuff and re-do that dungeon over again, albeit easier due to our unlocked goodies?

So You'll kill the same monster over and over again, and do the same dungeon over and over again, just because there's a exp/level bar?

  Foomerang

Elite Member

Joined: 11/10/05
Posts: 4294

A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still

8/08/12 6:10:54 PM#49


Originally posted by dave6660

Originally posted by Icewhite Developer Rock or a Hard Place. Which would you rather face on the forums? A) Just bought this game, 8 years behind, won't ever catch up, I'm quitting. B) Omg ezmode leveling, too fast, I'm quitting.  They don't even have to jog for 40 levels!   "Every way you look at this, you lose."--P. Simon Devs do generally vote for the new player retention direction.  Many will definitely argue against.  
Another  train of thought I will never understand.  Why do you need to catch up?  Is a players self esteem tied to their level?

In the real world there are always people ahead of you in all facets of life.  Does that mean you should live in a cave and never come out.


People have adopted (and developers have catered to) the mindset that the goal of an mmorpg is to finish it.

If you thought the events were dynamic, you'll think the stories are living.

  Valecruiz

Novice Member

Joined: 5/25/07
Posts: 22

Do what you must.

 
OP  8/08/12 6:14:43 PM#50
Originally posted by laokoko

Why does it even matters?  Do all of you stop playing once you hit max level? 

 

 

Essentially, yes.  I mean I'm usually one to give most of the end-game content a swing, but it's almost always the same "Farm x, get lewtz" mechanic.  I'll grant one thing, going through Molten Core in a 40-man raid was an incredible experience for end-game because the dungeon was well laid out and for it's time the boss fights were pretty well done.  Now it's all watered down to 5-10 people who can finish the instance in about 2 days if they're having a bad streak.  Then there's nothing to do but sit on your hands until the devs. make one more dungeon (to be completed in a day or two) a month later.

I don't see enjoyment in that, at all.  Even The Old Republic, for however much I praised it pre-launch, became the epitome of that ideal style, and it's received mostly criticism.

 

Case in point: You don't read a book just to know how it ends.  Every page you read should be interesting enough to make the finale worthwhile, and much is the same here.  Granted, MMO's don't have a designated finale like a book or movies does, but that just makes the journey to level cap that much more important.

If not faith, have trust

  User Deleted
8/08/12 6:17:10 PM#51
Originally posted by Valecruiz

Despite only being 21, I hate feeling like Ripvanwinkle when I tell my new-to-MMO friends about questing in the days of EQ, Dark Age of Camelot, EQ2, and SWG.  And now, the debate about MMO's going Free to Play because subscriptions end with only a month or so of content (Think ToR or Post-Lich King WoW) has got me wondering:

Perhaps the problem with MMO's today is that they're too easy to level through.  When I think back on the games mentioned above, it took countless hours to reach the level cap (usually 50 or 60) because leveling was just plain slow.  The areas weren't littered with fetch/kill quests that then pumped out crazy amounts of experience.  They were still crucial to leveling, but you also did have to grind, explore or go through dungeons multiple times (more on dungeons later).

I wholly believe the worst impact WoW had on MMOs was making the end-game content more appealing than the journey itself.  Mind you, I played the ever-living heck out of WoW and I appreciate it's financial success/popularity, but I feel it's lasting impact left too many gamers with a lesser patience for leveling.  Nowadays, it's all about the shinies you receive from the Big Bad Boss

And with this lack of patience comes a lack of cooperation.  Am I the only one who feels like mid-game dungeons are pretty worthless now besides a leveling sling-shot?  This feeling was incredibly pronounce when I played through the most recent version of WoW, and in my time playing ToR.  I could either go through the dungeon/Flashpoint, or just keep weeding through my log of kill/fetch quests.  In both cases, the loot or experience was comparably the same (in that they are utterly worthless in the next area).  It wasn't always like this.  Dungeons used to be critical to advancing your character (unless you wanted to weed-wack Smelly Gnomes for 12 hours), and you usually had to play through them more than once.

Maybe I'm just cynical and rose-tinted glasses, but I miss the journey rather than reducing my experience to Derping in 4 end-game dungeons while everyone else whines about a lack of  end-game dungeons.

I agree, say what they will, but the reason these devs made these games like this was to cater to the minority raider/dungeoneer group. They did so because they thought foolishly that they could keep up with end game demand. It's one of the reasons i like GW2 potential so much because they''ve taken that out of the way so you can enjoy the game again. There are goals they just aren't ALL at the end like it once was. Oh and one doesn't have to run a specific set of dungeons 100 times before having the right gear to go to the next dungeon 100 times before heading to the next raid 100 times. That's the other thing gone. :)

  madazz

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/07/03
Posts: 1256

8/08/12 6:18:31 PM#52
Originally posted by laokoko
Originally posted by madazz
Originally posted by laokoko

Why does it even matters?  Do all of you stop playing once you hit max level? 

 

 

Well... yeah... most do. What else is there to do? Repeat the same dungeon over and over and over so that we can unlock new stuff and re-do that dungeon over again, albeit easier due to our unlocked goodies?

So You'll kill the same monster over and over again, and do the same dungeon over and over again, just because there's a exp/level bar?

Well you see, once you max out and have done all the content everything is stale and doesn't change. As you level up you encounter new areas, gain new abilities, fight new monsters and obtain new experiences. When you level up to max in a modern MMO you don't do those things. You do get some new gear... but thats it. 

 

So I take it you enjoy repeating the same thing over and over again instead of finding new content?

  laokoko

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/14/09
Posts: 1845

8/08/12 6:32:24 PM#53
Originally posted by madazz
Originally posted by laokoko
Originally posted by madazz
Originally posted by laokoko

Why does it even matters?  Do all of you stop playing once you hit max level? 

 

 

Well... yeah... most do. What else is there to do? Repeat the same dungeon over and over and over so that we can unlock new stuff and re-do that dungeon over again, albeit easier due to our unlocked goodies?

So You'll kill the same monster over and over again, and do the same dungeon over and over again, just because there's a exp/level bar?

Well you see, once you max out and have done all the content everything is stale and doesn't change. As you level up you encounter new areas, gain new abilities, fight new monsters and obtain new experiences. When you level up to max in a modern MMO you don't do those things. You do get some new gear... but thats it. 

 

So I take it you enjoy repeating the same thing over and over again instead of finding new content?

ya I enjoy fighting challenging scripted boss fight dungeon or raid or pvp or arena battle so I don't mind doing it over and over again.  The thing is, take raid for example, if the content is difficult enough you'll get stuck, so the main focus is beating the raid which you havn't beaten yet.

And most important of all, you are playing with people.  So I wouldn't mind. 

  tixylix

Elite Member

Joined: 12/02/11
Posts: 1041

8/08/12 8:49:04 PM#54

Sorry but you didn't play EQ when it launched if you're only 21, you're probably one of these weird posers on the forums these days that pretends they played it. The ironic thing is EQ didn't have quests, it had basic kill 10 rats things which it came from but questing didn't really exist until WoW. I mean EQ2 had quests in beta but they were few and far between after level 10. The first game that really introduced them from 1 to end level was WoW. Even SWG in 2003 didn't have quests.... it just had missions you grinded on like EQ..

 

People seem to want to remember a genre they didn't play. The truth is WoW changed the MMO to what everyone thinks of it now, for better or for worse it's totally different thanx to WoW.

  Loktofeit

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 11358

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ESO, and Combat Arms

8/08/12 9:10:13 PM#55
Originally posted by laokoko

Why does it even matters?  Do all of you stop playing once you hit max level? 

I can't answer for others, but when I hit 60 in WOW, the game was pretty much over for me. I had been to all the zones, reached max level, got attuned, and did MC. There was nothing really left at that point other than the raid grind of repeating a dungeon to get better gear to repeat the next dungeon to get better gear to repeat the next dungeon to get better gear to... well, you get the point. :) The game that I was playing ended, the content was completed, and the new game seemed like a pointless cycle to me.

  laokoko

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/14/09
Posts: 1845

8/08/12 9:13:53 PM#56

I'm surprised you guys quit after you hit max level.  Because the "leveling phase" is the most boring part of the game for me.

Besides the leveling phase is mostly solo and you don't get to play with people in most game.  The content itself is boring too.  Kill 10 boars, go fetch that item.  THat's what the typical leveling phase of todays mmorpg looks like.

 

  Valecruiz

Novice Member

Joined: 5/25/07
Posts: 22

Do what you must.

 
OP  8/08/12 11:27:59 PM#57
Originally posted by laokoko

I'm surprised you guys quit after you hit max level.  Because the "leveling phase" is the most boring part of the game for me.

Besides the leveling phase is mostly solo and you don't get to play with people in most game.  The content itself is boring too.  Kill 10 boars, go fetch that item.  THat's what the typical leveling phase of todays mmorpg looks like.

 

And that's the problem with modern MMO's, which is why I started the discussion in the first place :P  So at least we're all on the same page now!

If not faith, have trust

  Lucioon

Novice Member

Joined: 1/12/06
Posts: 840

8/09/12 8:03:11 AM#58

When you get down to it, Gamers will complaint about everything, regardless if its too easy or too hard.

When there are a million players, there will be a million complaints.

So Its up to the Developers to risk it all and create a Very long term MMO that will make everyone Grind for Years on end, and still like it.

Otherwise there will no pleasing anyone at all.

Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.

  ruonim

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/25/09
Posts: 250

8/09/12 8:38:32 AM#59
Originally posted by Valecruiz
Originally posted by laokoko

I'm surprised you guys quit after you hit max level.  Because the "leveling phase" is the most boring part of the game for me.

Besides the leveling phase is mostly solo and you don't get to play with people in most game.  The content itself is boring too.  Kill 10 boars, go fetch that item.  THat's what the typical leveling phase of todays mmorpg looks like.

 

And that's the problem with modern MMO's, which is why I started the discussion in the first place :P  So at least we're all on the same page now!

Guess why guild wars 1 was so popular.  Max lvl after 2 days or so. You played for skins, gathered skill unlocks, pvp. Exp gived skill points not lvls. Even if you hated that fast leveling, you could make max lvl character for pvp 1 min after you installed game.

  Valecruiz

Novice Member

Joined: 5/25/07
Posts: 22

Do what you must.

 
OP  8/09/12 4:20:56 PM#60
Originally posted by ruonim
Originally posted by Valecruiz
Originally posted by laokoko

I'm surprised you guys quit after you hit max level.  Because the "leveling phase" is the most boring part of the game for me.

Besides the leveling phase is mostly solo and you don't get to play with people in most game.  The content itself is boring too.  Kill 10 boars, go fetch that item.  THat's what the typical leveling phase of todays mmorpg looks like.

 

And that's the problem with modern MMO's, which is why I started the discussion in the first place :P  So at least we're all on the same page now!

Guess why guild wars 1 was so popular.  Max lvl after 2 days or so. You played for skins, gathered skill unlocks, pvp. Exp gived skill points not lvls. Even if you hated that fast leveling, you could make max lvl character for pvp 1 min after you installed game.

GW1 was so popular for a variety of reasons.  1st, it was B2P.  For a MORPG, that was nearly unheard of.  Better yet, the content was well done and the game was beautiful.  2nd, the game was never meant to be taken at a hardcore pace.  Casual gamers could take days or weeks from playing and suffer no consequences.  3rd, As you pointed out, their PvP system was phenominal.  It made sense and everyone was on the same playing field.  It became about skill rather than gear whoring.

Yes, the skill points were an added perk to keep gamers going (especially with a level cap of 20), but to say the end game (or lack thereof) is what made GW enduring is to play that game with blinders on.

If not faith, have trust

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