My biggest concern is that i just don't think a sandbox game can acheive that multi-million subscriber type of success.  I think the reason for this is that sandbox games pretty much rely on PVP content, and unfortunately PVP content is frustrating for certain players.  There is a huge portion of the MMO playerbase that has absolutely no desire WHATSOEVER to PVP in their mmos.

What i wish is that we would go back to the "themepark" mmo's of yonder days.  I actually feel that EQ1 was in fact a sandbox, just a PVE one.  There were no quest hubs, there were multiple dungeons and overland areas that had plenty of level overlap, so you were never pigeon holed into the standard "oh, im level 26? that means if i want a dungeon i go here, and only here, and if i want to do quests, i go to this part of this zone, and only this part of this zone"  crap that you have nowadays.

I really believe the root problem is that developers and publishers have been catering to ultra casuals and keep making leveling times faster, and content faster to get through etc.  And i feel that they're shooting themselves in the foot as a result.

"Guild Wars 2, at least to me, represents a sort of middle ground between the two subgenres. The game features a fully developer driven content pipeline, but the underlying game design and functionality of the event system inspires the same sort of wanderlust players often feel when playing a sandbox game.""

Err no, sry.  The wanderlust you get from GW2 is the same wanderlust you get from any new AAA title in the honeymoon phase before the rose tint fades.  GW2 is just another themepark - you enjoy it  for awhile, consume the fully developer provided content and move on, perhaps returning when new developer created content is available.  Same as all themeparks.

The wanderlust you get from a sandbox comes from truly memorable high adrenalin moments arising out of player created interactions.  But sandboxes have their problems as well - notably there is typically lots of fairly boring time between such moments, and they seem to require very large amounts of time commitments.

If someone could legitimately meld the best parts of the two types of MMO design, they may well have a winner.

The thing I loved about SWG when I first started playing (between the CU and the NGE) was that you got experience off what you did.

If you fired a pistol, you got xp towards pistol, not rifle or axe or brawling, but towards shooting a pistol.

And the more you shot it, the better you got.

It took me 4 years to level my first character to max, because I was so busy just wandering around and flying my X-Wing. And it never bothered me.

Wasn't thrilled with the NGE, but stuck it out nonetheless (no other SW options!)

Things actually got a little better for SWG towards the end, with the ability for players to craft missions (chronicles), Beast Master, City Invasions and some other things.

They were actually figuring things out, but the problem was that it was too late.

Too many people had a sour taste and it was nearly impossible to get anyone to even try it again.

Would F2P have saved SWG?

Hard to say, but by then, LA had already invested in SWTOR and there was no way they could let two SW properties compete in the MMO market.

Also, the fact that they had encoded an entirely different type of game on top of the original pre-cu code made it too unstable and difficult to make improvements.

I honestly believe that if SWTOR had been more like SWG post NGE, say around 2010/2011, built that way intentionally from the ground up instead of tacked on, that it would have been more successful.

What LA/Bioware/SOE fail to understand is that SW fans are a very dedicated lot and very vocal.

If they like/love something, they will let it be known.

But if they feel screwed over (looking at you Jar-Jar) then they are also going to let it be known in a very distinct and loud way.

And since so many were used to the freedom that SWG gave them in crafting, having a house, piloting a ship, etc., they were turned off when SWTOR turned out to be too much of a WoW clone.

Now, I do play SWTOR, I waited until June to pick it up so that it could get its legs and push past the "rush" of initial subscribers that would inevitably drift off.

And I really do like many aspects of the game.

However I haven't hit 50 with any of my toons yet, and I wonder if it will become a bore when I do.

Another thing developers have to realize is that today, most people want to pick up a game and just play the story or jump into pvp.

They aren't looking for an endless grind for either levels or gear.

Now SWTOR got it right with the Warzones and the fact that you can join at any level (after level 10) and you are defaulted to the same level as everyone else.

You can jump right into Battlefront-type fighting with your character equipped as they are without having to wait until max level to be competitive.

This makes it easier for players to practice their pvp skills and learn to use their abilities effectively in pvp as they progress.

But whether an mmo that is built around a completely levelless system can be successful is to be seen.

Originally posted by BadSpock

Originally posted by bcbully

Everywhere you said GW2 you sould have put TSW.

Other than that good article.

Umm content consumption + end-game gear/instance grind. Exactly what MB says (correctly I might add) people are tired of.

I guess reading comprehension is not strong with you - this is what MB actually says,

" BioWare followed the World of Warcraft model, but put a bit too much stock into their story, hoping players would see reason to re-roll alternate characters enough times at level cap to make up for the title’s somewhat deficient endgame content. No one could possibly hope to compete with roughly seven years of content updates to World of Warcraft with the launch of a new title, and so the same song and dance of the last couple of years essentially played out once more.

Players quickly consumed the game’s admittedly much easier endgame dungeon and raid content and that was the end of that.

"

To paraphrase, once players consumed the content they were done.,  Nothing about end game gear grind.

Originally posted by BadSpock

Hybrid is the future.

Elocke is 100% correct.

The "old school" sandbox of UO/EvE etc. just won't cut it, but neither will the cookie-cutter EQ formula games since 2004.

The original MMO audience I feel misses a virtual world, and the "new" MMO audience is growing tired of the same old formula and want virtual world aspects too.

I agree with Elocke and you BadSpock, a hybrid approach I think will benefit the entire genre. There will still be players like myself that crave sandboxes, and players that crave full themeparks, but most I think want some of both and even I can adapt to a Hybrid MMO when I had no desire to adapt to WoW or it's clones. The best of both worlds hopefully.

I am not so optimistic about how the Masters see this issue though... the Investors.... perhaps they are reading the Tea Leaves as well... they were so sold on themeparks, I hope they see the opportunity Hybrid desgn holds.

( Now if we can just get Turbine to read this article and take notes. Middle Earth needs more sand in it's playground. That would be progress.)

Originally posted by chervil

The thing I loved about SWG when I first started playing (between the CU and the NGE) was that you got experience off what you did.

If you fired a pistol, you got xp towards pistol, not rifle or axe or brawling, but towards shooting a pistol.

And the more you shot it, the better you got.

It took me 4 years to level my first character to max, because I was so busy just wandering around and flying my X-Wing. And it never bothered me.

Wasn't thrilled with the NGE, but stuck it out nonetheless (no other SW options!)

Things actually got a little better for SWG towards the end, with the ability for players to craft missions (chronicles), Beast Master, City Invasions and some other things.

They were actually figuring things out, but the problem was that it was too late.

Too many people had a sour taste and it was nearly impossible to get anyone to even try it again.

Would F2P have saved SWG?

Hard to say, but by then, LA had already invested in SWTOR and there was no way they could let two SW properties compete in the MMO market.

Also, the fact that they had encoded an entirely different type of game on top of the original pre-cu code made it too unstable and difficult to make improvements.

I honestly believe that if SWTOR had been more like SWG post NGE, say around 2010/2011, built that way intentionally from the ground up instead of tacked on, that it would have been more successful.

What LA/Bioware/SOE fail to understand is that SW fans are a very dedicated lot and very vocal.

If they like/love something, they will let it be known.

But if they feel screwed over (looking at you Jar-Jar) then they are also going to let it be known in a very distinct and loud way.

And since so many were used to the freedom that SWG gave them in crafting, having a house, piloting a ship, etc., they were turned off when SWTOR turned out to be too much of a WoW clone.

Now, I do play SWTOR, I waited until June to pick it up so that it could get its legs and push past the "rush" of initial subscribers that would inevitably drift off.

And I really do like many aspects of the game.

However I haven't hit 50 with any of my toons yet, and I wonder if it will become a bore when I do.

 

Another thing developers have to realize is that today, most people want to pick up a game and just play the story or jump into pvp.

They aren't looking for an endless grind for either levels or gear.

Now SWTOR got it right with the Warzones and the fact that you can join at any level (after level 10) and you are defaulted to the same level as everyone else.

You can jump right into Battlefront-type fighting with your character equipped as they are without having to wait until max level to be competitive.

This makes it easier for players to practice their pvp skills and learn to use their abilities effectively in pvp as they progress.

But whether an mmo that is built around a completely levelless system can be successful is to be seen.

The problem for some of us that loved SWG is that we also hated SOE. We had stopped trusting SOE as a MMO publisher, and the information leak a year ago made matters worse. I for one decided to never again trust SOE and I know in real life other Gamers that feel the same way (at least up til now).

SWG's Failure was as much a Failure of SOE as it was a failure of SWG and it's mangement.

The challenge/problem with people who want sandbox MMOs to work is that... there are ones out there already.  But all of the ones out there are so insanely unpopular that even with the sandbox setup... they don't play them.  Those that do two cookies for you!

Yes SWTOR failed but before it did it capped at 1.7M subscribers, they probably got closer to double that in sales.  They're now the fourth best selling RPG of all time.   Compare that to SWG which capped out at 250K subs... not even close.... at all.  What can be learned from SWTOR is that linear games are still quite popular and will sell well.  What can be learned is necessarily not every game needs to be or should be an MMO.

Sandboxes are doing quite well as co-op games.  Terraria and Minecraft both did very well.

Originally posted by Turkish4676

Originally posted by Kyleran

Well written article and I can agree with the major points, that SWG helped put nails in the sandbox coffin...

 

 

I think you missed the point. SWG was the first to really offer sandbox, and the developers put the nails in the games coffin by changing that. SWG was the first major mmo that had player based weapons, armor, housing, buildings, equipment etc. etc. The game allowed players to decide what type of character they were going to be with a mixed class point delegation system. You could change allegances, change class build, build player cities, free to roam anywhere in any zone including space. (although this came after the great ruining and I mean the first ruining of the game not NGE) I have not touched on several of the games better points but in no means did SWG put the nail in the sand box's coffin.

SWG at launch and for a few months was the essence of sand box and sadly what was not touched on, and I have never seen touched, was its utter failure to launch. My friends and I had been waiting for its launch since we saw its announcement at E3 98 or 99. (can't remember which) They never had a commercial, game magazine ad, announcement releases, websites, announced betas, etc. When it came out none of us ever knew. I chanced upon it one Friday evening after work, and had to call 20+ people to let them know. It just showed up to the store unannounced. After a couple of months playing I ran into gamers that had no idea it even existed. So essentially the game was killed before it ever launched.(secretly)

By no means was it the nails, at one point it was a great game, just never given a proper chance. And some other poster stated that it was bleeding subs before NGE, duh like I stated previously, the game was ruined when they did the Combat Upgrade. CU was the answer to all the whiney lazy players that flood our games today. Pistoleers who only had to do one set of bars were as powerful as classes that had to do three full masteries.

Turkish is saying something I've been saying for years. SOE/LA never - NEVER - formally advertised SWG. Perhaps a snippet commercial LONG ago, somewhere that was forgotten, but much less than the way games are advertised these days (superhype).

Many talks between friends in-game were had on how we could make our own commercials or get the word out ourselves. This was a couple years before youtube. Now you see youtube movies about SWG everywhere. SWG PvP, SWG space battles, SWG crafting/decorating, SWGLetsPlay tutorials, SWG closure farewells.

Yes, the original game, the pre-CU game, the Raph Koster designed game that had a vision for what was a massive real life immersion in the video realm... that game made you wonder, made you design, made you THINK, made you LIVE the game. Sometimes to its own detriment - terrain negotiation, item decay, battle fatigue.

The CU and NGE were the WoW-population-and-subscription-chasing-abominations, I can agree to that in their inceptions/implementations, but post-NGE (SWG post 2009) was by far the better game all around. Combat was fairly balanced, crafting was still FAR superior to anything out there even now, and the community and economy that the community created was second to none.

All in all it was the advertising. WoW never stopped advertising, even after they reached 2mil, 3mil, 5mil subs, the advertising still came on strong. If it wasn't Mr. T telling you he was a night-elf-mohawk, it was Chuck Norris and his battle cat puttin' the smack-down on some Orcs. Those commercials ran on numerous channels, multiple times, day and night. THAT is was made WoW a household name. Just because it was a spin-off of Blizzard's Warcraft, only meant that the minor (or more "secret") gaming population knew about it, otherwise the game meant nothing to the population that plays/knows about it now. It was pure advertising and being in the right place at the right time.

So you (we - my friends and I in-game) would have thought that during all that time, with all of the Star Wars movies on Spike TV being re-run month after month, year after year, they would have thrown out at least one simple ad for SWG to say "Hey, we're here and still going strong!" wouldn't have broke the bank, but actually brought in new subs... instead they took the beating like a boss, and faded away due to sneaky management and underhanded attorneys and CEOs after a pipe-dream-payday.

While I guess no one will read this 102031th answer, but for what's it worth:

YES!

"The thing is, I feel that Star Wars: The Old Republic’s failures are symptomatic of a larger issue: themepark games just don’t really work and MMO gamers are tired of them. The issues plaguing SW:TOR weren’t new, just about every themepark MMO launched since World of Warcraft has been plagued by the same problems, yet developers continued to use WoW’s themepark design as a foundation.

Like Star Wars Galaxies, SW:TOR’s failures here, despite all the money and talent behind the project, may represent the straw that ultimately breaks the camel’s back when it comes to the themepark sub-genre of MMOs. There is simply no way for a developer to keep up with player demand for content."

I think this is the most crucial part, the one ALL developers, past, present and future need to read over and over and over. Until they REALLY get it.

Yeah I too feel about GW2 a bit a middle ground for the adventuring feeling.

The fall of SWG was very unfortunate. I think it was, among many things too sandboxish. I know it had quests, but when WOW came, people just wanted *some* direction. It was nice a fun to aimlessly wander for a while, but in the long run that alone simply doesn't carry, as much as a mere, pure themepark doesn't carry either. WOW was the great exception. It was a sort of a one time hit, and there simply aren't any major conclusions to get from it, maybe except people were dead tired of the long ways until the fun starts, stuff that made EQ1, SWG, UO and other first era MMO simply too much of a chore for the new era. Those hardship days of 4 days boss camping and corpse runs just were over, and that will remain the merit of WOW. But people read too much into it, like ending all sandbox aspirations.

IMVPO the perfect Star Wars MMO would be a mix of SWG and SWTOR, and to this day I NEVER understand how Bioware refused to take ANYTHING from SWG. I mean, it was a controversial MMO, yes, but some parts were really LOVED by it's players and famous in the MMO genre. Why did Bioware not pick at least a few things from SWG up? It was on the table! That is what I REALLY never will understand.

So I hope sandbox will come back as serious feature. But then, developers strangely so far didn't seem to be the fast learning type... :(

Originally posted by troublmaker

The challenge/problem with people who want sandbox MMOs to work is that... there are ones out there already.  But all of the ones out there are so insanely unpopular that even with the sandbox setup... they don't play them.  Those that do two cookies for you!

Yes SWTOR failed but before it did it capped at 1.7M subscribers, they probably got closer to double that in sales.  They're now the fourth best selling RPG of all time.   Compare that to SWG which capped out at 250K subs... not even close.... at all.  What can be learned from SWTOR is that linear games are still quite popular and will sell well.  What can be learned is necessarily not every game needs to be or should be an MMO.

Sandboxes are doing quite well as co-op games.  Terraria and Minecraft both did very well.

Direct contradiction doesn't prove a point. Yes, there are other "sandbox" games out there, and yes, there are people playing them. But those games, for some reason, aren't set up for everyone. As stated above somewhere, there needs to be balance... "sandbox" and "Themepark" and "PvP". Then not only the right balance, but for it to be released at the right time.

Comparison of TOR subs to SWG subs is like apple and oranges. Yeah, they're both "round" but that doesn't mean they are the same. The mainstream population that are actually playing MMO's (and I use that term loosely for TOR) today weren't that prevalent back in 2003. The MMO industry was just getting started. People were still stuck on console/SPRPGs. To actually play with other people in a game like Warcraft, much less a STAR WARS game was almost unheard of. And again, it wasn't until Blizzard's spin-off of Warcraft and their bombardment of advertisements, that made MMOs the popular "must play" of today.

Good read MB.

I am so turned away from any game that is WoWish, unless it's WoW itself.

Here are a few of the big releases of the last 8 years.

You can add Warcraft to any Released MMO after 2004, example. Star Warcraft Galaxies (NGE), Guild Warcraft, Lord of the Warcraft Online, Warcraft Online, AIONCRAFT, Age of Warcraft, RIFTCRAFT, Star Warcraft and the Old Republic and finally Guild Warcraft 2.

WoW should just remain WoW, unfortunately it's the big influence on mmo themeparks today whether the company is taking some or if not all idea's from WoW.

I had to do a double take when I read this article.  One day bashing those of us who had negative remarks about swtor then this.

I find it funny that he compares swg to swtor.

SWG was never advertised other than word of mouth,  SWTOR had millions spent in advertising.

SWG lasted a good long time it's demise was LA pulling the license.   SWTOR demise was when the game was created, and was missing key elements of game play,  lack of content and just not worth paying 1 red cent to play it, not to mention it was no were near star wars and iconic enough, lack of group content.  Take you pick it has many failing.

Like it or not SWG lived for years with the nga and after I left,  it only died because of SWTOR and lucasarts not wanting to have two IP's covering the same sort of subject matter.

All I can say is I wish LA would pull the license from EA/Bioware so somebody can try to do justice to my belief Star Wars IP.

Yes and I think this entire ea/bioware failure we do a lot of harm to the current state of mmo's and the crappy games that the devs keep putting out.  Hopefully this will be the long awaited wakeup call we all been saying needed to happen.

Originally posted by Taonite

Comparison of TOR subs to SWG subs is like apple and oranges. Yeah, they're both "round" but that doesn't mean they are the same. The mainstream population that are actually playing MMO's (and I use that term loosely for TOR) today weren't that prevalent back in 2003. The MMO industry was just getting started. People were still stuck on console/SPRPGs. To actually play with other people in a game like Warcraft, much less a STAR WARS game was almost unheard of. And again, it wasn't until Blizzard's spin-off of Warcraft and their bombardment of advertisements, that made MMOs the popular "must play" of today. Yep, these games are doing okay partly because they are not corporately driven. Indie games will do well most times until someone decides to buy them out to try and make the buck for themselves. Graphics might be the only thing holding them back, as the game mechanics are thier strong points.But "sandbox" games are not co-ops if done properly. They are all inclusive - open world free exploration, player created cities, themepark, pvp, pve, crafting, player economy, social community. "Co-ops" are more like Diablo III and... TOR.

 

I'd accept your second (which appears in this crop as your first) point as true if not for the fact of World of Warcraft.  Here is a game that on launch had a million subs.  Star Wars is a big franchise that sells 3-4 million games and yet they could not attract subs like the Warcraft franchise could.

I don't think Minecraft's success was it being indie.  I think it had more to do with the hype of popular gamers and the indoctrination the developers had of gamers by including them into the development process.  But yeah, I'm simply stating that sandboxes do REALLY well as co-op games.

I mean honestly imagine Skyrim as an MMO. I'd be a nightmare.

The only thing that went wrong with SWTOR I can immagine, and playing since first day , is pvp and end game. To which both I could not care less.

For the rest all the best. Never in my life at my 50 years have played more fun game. And taking in account since C64 era.

Everything is done just right. Despite for last 1 week I'm playing mainly TSW and starting to enjoy it every day more, SWTOR was real love at first sight which grow stronger every single day.  Had a blast leveling and playing my 4 main alts of rep side and another 4 on empire side. And have another 8 in total above 40. Lore, environment, avesome voice questing, incredible twists in class quests, better then in any movie, very fun combat, physics, ... simply every single expect. Guess besides pvp and end game.

And as already said .... SWTOR holds another record ... never in any game "haters community" raised so fast and was so vocal.

Mike B.     YOU'RE CRAZY !

But, I hope you are right.

Something I would like to point out that I think some of the commenters are missing on.

I think Mike is trying to point out a correlation between the 2 Star Wars games.

The crux is that both games did poorly. The reasoning Mike is using is that the industry is looking at those failures. If both games performed poorly, then maybe it wasn't because SWG was a sandbox .

Looking further into the industry most Themeparks after WOW have been mediocre at best. Yet clearly there is a market for MMO games. SO developers can either invent a new genre; sandpark, minepark ,zombiebox , ect.   Or do what movie and music studio's have done for generations and go look to the past for inspiration.  That pretty much leaves the older sandbox design in the realm of MMO's.

I for one would love a truly updated 2012 look at a sandbox game. I think most major developers have figured out that non consensual PVP is not a good feature. So there is little to fear in that direction. Archeage has full PVP but only on one huge contested continent. You know that if you go to this place , you might get attacked and I don't have a problem with that, as long as you are not required to go there to get the best stuff in the game it is fine.

I just really want a game with good housing. It adds so much. Trophies, furnishings, decorations and so much more to the crafting chains in the world. It gives you a feeling of ownership.There is talk of making the personal zones in GW2 into more of a housing feature and  I would love it. I think all games should now come out at launch with a minimum of the housing that EQ2 has.

I also think some of you are being a little unfair to GW2, time will tell of course. However, if it holds true that you can craft items comparable to end game drops and they expand on the personal zones and crafting in that direction, then I think it will be a bit more Sandbox than it is getting credit for. It is certainly a hybrid themepark, but you can ignore the personal story and pretty much go anywhere you can survive and do whatever you want.You can even jump right into the PVP zones at level 1 and level up that way.This all sounds a bit sandy to me.The only thing you can't do is jump other players in the PVE zones which is emeliorated by the easy access to zones dedicated to this sort of behavior.

Oh, give me a home, where the goblin hordes roam, and the odd jobs are no longer called quests...

Originally posted by winter

 I don't get it. The Author starts out by pointing out SWG was a Sandbox, and a Sandbox that dispite its popular IP that tanked hard , was bleeding subs even before the NGE. Massive fail but a sanbox. He then goes on to say that SW:TOR a theme park game with the same IP failed, ok how does that equal any revival of sandbox games?

  GW2 is in no way a sandbox, and proclaiming it a overwhelming Major success just yet would be a bit soon I'd say, maybe at leaast wait a month or 2 after its been out. hell there were tons of people saying how SW;Tor was gonna be a major success before it was releaased too and we have seen how thats turned out.

  Surely in the end the Author can come up with better then wishfull thinking and the arguement that because one SW sandbox game failed and one SW theme park game failed its gonna lead to a revival of sandbox games. Thatt just doesn't make any logical sense

This was my exact opinion too. We have seen no sandbox MMO ever have be a mega-hit like WoW is. Until that day comes sandboxes wont be the thing everyone is striving to make.

I love the sandbox game play. And I for one can't wait for a decent fantasy based mmo sandbox. For my sci-fi fix I have Eve Online which I still love and play.

SWG was a really good sandbox game but like the article said SOE destroyed it over night.

Waiting now for WoD MMO from CCP. All the other MMO's thats in development do not hold my intrest appart from TSW, which had a really good release and plays very well. Funcom did a nice job on this game and I am still in Egypt not even gotten round to doing any Nightmares yet.