Having played both games, I'm enjoying The Secret World much more than SWToR.  I feel like I'm making a difference in TSW.  Also, when I want to just explore, I can.  It's fun trying to sneak around the mobs without stealth or crouch.  SWToR is too linear, and I had to play alts to see all the stories; I never capped any since all the quests were the same.  TSW's repeatables are enjoyable because you know what you're doing, they're short, and they do give a lot of points, but they're not mandatory.  

I also like the idea in TSW that I'm not "the chosen one" or the only person that can save the world...I'm just another in the big fight.  That's what MMO's should be about.  There are too many "chosen ones" running around in every game out there, it just doesn't make sense from a storytelling/RP point of view.

TSW is a difficult game, but it's possible to improve your skills, etc. or just change them.  I hit a wall in SWToR with my Inquisitor, and stopped playing.  There was no way to get better since I couldn't do it without grinding.  Grinding isn't heroic.  

I get a huge sense of accomplishment when I finally get through something in TSW.  With SWToR it was just "ok, done, move on".  

The only thing I would like in TSW is a companion/pet/henchman.  I should be able to hire a lackey from HQ every now and again...they've got to have rookies that need training...lol  Some of those solo instances are extremely difficult.

I'm looking forward to GW2.  It looks really impressive for a game with no sub. 

Originally posted by elocke

Originally posted by Vapors

Originally posted by elocke
For me both games have the same problem.  Limited content and a storyline that just ends as well as boring ALT play due to redundant "leveling" paths.  Also, combat in both games needs an overhaul.  To me, any game that makes me want to find ways around mobs instead of fighting them, fails at FUN combat design.  It should MAKE me want to tackle every mob I see, not look for the easiest path around them or FORCE me to fight them when I dont' want to, as TSW and SWTOR do.  Epic fail on those fronts.

The question is simply how you want to to see the combat to be? Try to explain me your view of how should a shooting pumpgun and a shooting pistol look like and how should you shoot them up, by pressing 1 button or aiming with them with the mouse or stuff like that.

I guess its very hard for both of the games make the player satisfied, they can't make simple weapons to look like epic.

Im not sure but the most players just love to see awesome particle flying over your whole computers window (not a big fan of it personally)

My complaint about the combat is not the animation or graphics or even if its tab target or reticle.  My complaint is about how it "feels" and "flows".  It feels slow and tedious and not visceral at all.  GW2 combat is what I really enjoy, maybe even a hint of Tera's combat IF they would add more depth to it and get rid of the locked in place while casting, hence why I lean toward GW2.

Have you played the game? You're not locked to the place and can walk around all the time kiting enemies and stuff. There's like 2-3 skills out of 550 which makes u rooted while shooting. GW2 Combat simply looks better to players since they have much more abilties to perform as fantasy based mmo

Originally posted by elocke

Originally posted by Vapors

Originally posted by elocke
For me both games have the same problem.  Limited content and a storyline that just ends as well as boring ALT play due to redundant "leveling" paths.  Also, combat in both games needs an overhaul.  To me, any game that makes me want to find ways around mobs instead of fighting them, fails at FUN combat design.  It should MAKE me want to tackle every mob I see, not look for the easiest path around them or FORCE me to fight them when I dont' want to, as TSW and SWTOR do.  Epic fail on those fronts.

The question is simply how you want to to see the combat to be? Try to explain me your view of how should a shooting pumpgun and a shooting pistol look like and how should you shoot them up, by pressing 1 button or aiming with them with the mouse or stuff like that.

I guess its very hard for both of the games make the player satisfied, they can't make simple weapons to look like epic.

Im not sure but the most players just love to see awesome particle flying over your whole computers window (not a big fan of it personally)

My complaint about the combat is not the animation or graphics or even if its tab target or reticle.  My complaint is about how it "feels" and "flows".  It feels slow and tedious and not visceral at all.  GW2 combat is what I really enjoy, maybe even a hint of Tera's combat IF they would add more depth to it and get rid of the locked in place while casting, hence why I lean toward GW2.

I completely agree with this point. For PvE missions I had a high-AOE dmg build because everywhere I went I seemed to be fighting 3-5 of something. There was something about mob density that made even moving around the world tedious. I mean maps are just packed with stationary mobs, and some limited-patrol mobs, that stand between you and mission goals. Sprint-speed boosts helped to an extent, but I found myself just wanting to avoid combat because it was so repetitive. And even though mob design was sometimes very good, basic combat mechanics didn't seem to change, the exception being storyline bosses and dungeon content.

Originally posted by Vapors

Originally posted by elocke

Originally posted by Vapors

Originally posted by elocke
For me both games have the same problem.  Limited content and a storyline that just ends as well as boring ALT play due to redundant "leveling" paths.  Also, combat in both games needs an overhaul.  To me, any game that makes me want to find ways around mobs instead of fighting them, fails at FUN combat design.  It should MAKE me want to tackle every mob I see, not look for the easiest path around them or FORCE me to fight them when I dont' want to, as TSW and SWTOR do.  Epic fail on those fronts.

The question is simply how you want to to see the combat to be? Try to explain me your view of how should a shooting pumpgun and a shooting pistol look like and how should you shoot them up, by pressing 1 button or aiming with them with the mouse or stuff like that.

I guess its very hard for both of the games make the player satisfied, they can't make simple weapons to look like epic.

Im not sure but the most players just love to see awesome particle flying over your whole computers window (not a big fan of it personally)

My complaint about the combat is not the animation or graphics or even if its tab target or reticle.  My complaint is about how it "feels" and "flows".  It feels slow and tedious and not visceral at all.  GW2 combat is what I really enjoy, maybe even a hint of Tera's combat IF they would add more depth to it and get rid of the locked in place while casting, hence why I lean toward GW2.

Have you played the game? You're not locked to the place and can walk around all the time kiting enemies and stuff. There's like 2-3 skills out of 550 which makes u rooted while shooting. GW2 Combat simply looks better to players since they have much more abilties to perform as fantasy based mmo

Did you read my post?  You must have skipped the part where I mentioned TERA when referring to being locked in place.  Try again.

Originally posted by Derpybird

Originally posted by elocke

Originally posted by Vapors

Originally posted by elocke
For me both games have the same problem.  Limited content and a storyline that just ends as well as boring ALT play due to redundant "leveling" paths.  Also, combat in both games needs an overhaul.  To me, any game that makes me want to find ways around mobs instead of fighting them, fails at FUN combat design.  It should MAKE me want to tackle every mob I see, not look for the easiest path around them or FORCE me to fight them when I dont' want to, as TSW and SWTOR do.  Epic fail on those fronts.

The question is simply how you want to to see the combat to be? Try to explain me your view of how should a shooting pumpgun and a shooting pistol look like and how should you shoot them up, by pressing 1 button or aiming with them with the mouse or stuff like that.

I guess its very hard for both of the games make the player satisfied, they can't make simple weapons to look like epic.

Im not sure but the most players just love to see awesome particle flying over your whole computers window (not a big fan of it personally)

My complaint about the combat is not the animation or graphics or even if its tab target or reticle.  My complaint is about how it "feels" and "flows".  It feels slow and tedious and not visceral at all.  GW2 combat is what I really enjoy, maybe even a hint of Tera's combat IF they would add more depth to it and get rid of the locked in place while casting, hence why I lean toward GW2.

I completely agree with this point. For PvE missions I had a high-AOE dmg build because everywhere I went I seemed to be fighting 3-5 of something. There was something about mob density that made even moving around the world tedious. I mean maps are just packed with stationary mobs, and some limited-patrol mobs, that stand between you and mission goals. Sprint-speed boosts helped to an extent, but I found myself just wanting to avoid combat because it was so repetitive. And even though mob design was sometimes very good, basic combat mechanics didn't seem to change, the exception being storyline bosses and dungeon content.

Exactly.  I've had this issue in other games as well, where the combat is lackluster to me because the game makes it unfun to wade through mobs when it should be the other way around.  SWTOR is a good example.  Just can't stand fighting mobs in TSW or SWTOR.  However, in GW2 I was literally going out of my way to kill everything between me and where I was going, 1. because it rewards you for doing so in multiple areas from xp to dailies and so forth but also because the combat itself is fun and dynamic and FUN to practice on mobs in the world.

Overall I like the angle of this article. It definitely approaches both games from an interesting perspective.

However, I also feel like this article is waaay too premature. This article could've been made about SWTOR when it was in it's 2nd month of release, and produced the exact opposite conclusion. Simply put, TSW has barely been out more than a month, and where it currently stands is already somewhat difficult to tell. It's got a following, absolutely. However, it's really hard to tell just how much of a following the game actually has, and whether or not there's any real staying power to the game.

To be honest, I would disagree with the article that 'epicness' really has anything to do with the success or failure of either game. It's certainly an interesting perspective to take, but ultimate (what I believe) is the reason SWTOR is doing so poorly, is a problem that TSW also shares. The article is basically focusing on the symptom, not the problem.

So what exactly is the problem?

Well, the problem is that (in both games) the core game changes once you reach the 'end'. Both games 'end' and both games have you grinding the same dungeons to get better and better gear. It has to do with having a vertical progression system in an MMO. We've also been seeing the downfalls of this system for the past decade.

In SWTOR you go from this epic storyline, making your mark on the galaxy, to rehashing the same old tired mini-battles over and over again. In TSW you change from basically being a paranormal investigator, to  rehashing the same old tired mini-battles over and over again. They're both story based games, and they both end up being gear grinds.

-- some spoilers ahead if you haven't played TSW --

What bugged me even more about TSW, is that, unlike SWTOR, the story elements don't even seem to matter. Most are really well done, but they are all very fire & forget. Every magical weapon you are sent to uncover gets taken away from you. Instead of following up on this, or even hinting at what the outcome of such failures are, you instead get treated to a 'bad agent! okay, next assignment' story progression. It completely belittles the entire ordeal you just went through, and leaves the story feeling somewhat lackluster.

--- spoilers over ---

In summary, TSW and SWTOR share a lot more similarities than I think many people want to accept. They are both highly story-based games, centered around superb quality voice acting. However, they are also both vertical progression system centered around gear grinds. What really screws over both games, is also their biggest strength. Their story elements.

The main problem with vertical progression scaling, is that you have to continuously churn out newer and newer content to keep people interesting. At the same time, people will chew through the same amount of content at a faster & faster rate, so you are then forced to produce content in greater and greater volume to meet the increased demand. It's exponential. Combine this with content that is primarily oriented around well voice acted cutscenes, and you have the perfect recipe for not delivering content fast enough. Cutscenes take time to do right, and AoC has shown us what happens when you frontload your quality content and then follow it up w/ something subpar. In order for Funcom to continue to meet the demands of the players, it will be expensive, and VERY time consuming.

Victor, I applaud the format of this article over your previous entry.

In my opinion, you dug yourself in a deep hole in describing SW:TOR's problems, which mirror TSW's, and failed to climb back out when trying to distance TSW from SW:TOR.

SWTOR and TSW Limitations

To put it simply, the problem with SWTOR's and TSW's epic adventure is that it ends. There is a disconnect between this chosen hero you have raised to cap and the person he becomes upon reaching the cap.

Here you are, going on this grand journey as a heroic or dastardly sort of fellow with amazing storyline quests to take you to 50 and quality 10. Upon hitting the cap, however, the story hits its high point and then gradually reaches its inevitable end. The only way you progress further with your newly minted level 50 quality 10 epic hero is through the completion of the same high-level nightmare dungeons repeatedly for better EPIC gear or by engaging in PVP.

This is aggravated by the limited number of available quests to do among all possible characters you can make (no point rolling other characters in TSW), such that some stories in Transylvania get forcibly rehashed way too easily and thus water down other class (no point rolling other characters in TSW) playthroughs. Even worse, the content patches provided so far focused on aspects of the game that aren't really story-based (TSW's content patches focused on aspects of the game that are story-based yielding 12-16 hours of original content, majority of which was in pre-transylvania zones), and that's not what people wanted to experience in a game with such a rich lore component (and that's not what someone who is already finished with the short story and in quality 10 gear needs to distract them from the gear-treadmill endgame).

Great article.

This is a bit off topic but I have not reached the end game in either mmo's yet. i just want to comment on the actual worlds they are set in.
 

When i first played WoW, the world felt so epic to me, and for me, having an "epic" world is the main aspect of what makes an MMO actually epic. Azeroth felt so huge, and amazing, i used to gasp at the huge zones, the huge maps, look out to sea from the coast and think "wow there is another whole island over there, and I'm gonna be there one day!!". The mountians where epic, the caves where dark and mysterous, the secret areas that nobody could reach where epic and the raid dungeons, well they where just a dream to me, and the fact that I never reached them gave them there epicness. As 7 years have passed, the world does not feel as epic as it once was in vinilla mainly due to the flying mounts that where introduced and also the fact that new mmos have come out with larger, bigger scaled worlds. But none of them will feel as epic as Azeroth first did.

SWTOR did not have this epic feeling for me, even tho the world land masses where 10x as big, it just did not have the epic world feeling. The fact that there where npcs that you couldnt even click on annowed me, they felt like they were not part of the world at all, and the layouts of the zones, just didnt feel epic. I get this same feeling in The Secret World. The way the world is laid out, does not make me feel like it is a proper "world", does not justify the epicness i first felt when i stepped foot into Azeroth. For me the world itself has to feel epic, or else I might as well just stay in the real world and not play mmos at all.

Disagree about SWTOR not being epic. 

It is THE most epic fail ever

I have to agree with elocke and Marcelino about their views. Story alone doesn't make an MMO epic. Combat alone doesn't make an MMO epic. In order to be an epic MMO, you have to do everything perfect and that makes an MMO epic.

MMO's that came close to being epic in my opinion are probably EverQuest, Vanilla WoW, and Star Wars Galaxies.

Honestly, those 3 games in my opinion of course are still better than SWTOR or TSW.

I think the term EPIC is a good analysis but not quite in the way people talk vaguely about it.

I have often thought about it becuase yes i have heard the same mention many times myself.

I think have the answer and wil ltry to explain.

To me Epic battles are ones that are extremely tough near impossible to win but are definitely "possible".So many games i see have such a poor combat design that you know right away if yo uhave a chance or not,there is little actual skill behind the whole combat set of spells/abilities.

SWTOR had a VERY limited set of spells/abilities to begin with,then each one was extremely simple,nothing to think about at all.Been awhile but i remeber one ability,the ONLY one that had any substance,it had something to do with holding the enemy in the air and damaging it and sending it for a knockback.other than that the entire combat sysem offered nothing to in depth variable combat.

I will give a small example of EPIC combat can happen.

First of all you need timers that are NOT spamming,so yo uhave to be smart in their use.

Ok you start with debuffs that lower attack/defense/mobility/lower accuracy and possible stuns[paralyze] and various other possibilities.Then you have assorted long timer abilities like SLEEP,BIND,Gravity/SLOW yo ucan already see a VAST array of abilities that coudl allow you to defeat an enemy even if your attack versus the enemy attack is grossly outmatched.

Bottom line is SWTOR did NOT offer that kind of depth,not even close,so the combat NEVER felt epic,just generic and everything predictable.

I hope when they get around to adding more end game content, that its more "area's". There is so much lore and mythology in the world to dive into that if they use it right , the options are endless.

We've seen so far a portion of the East Cost of the US, Egypt and Transylvania (sp?). I hope to see other countries such as China or India in future content.

Originally posted by Jaedor

I think it depends on your definition of epic. For some players, epic is about the setting, the story and how you fit into it while for others it is the intensity of battle. Both can provide adrenaline rush, but the path is different, as is the length of time the rush lasts.

 

Epic is pretty well defined. Of course people might bastardise the meaning (that was an epic burger). To base a whole thesis on the 'wrong' meaning is iffy to say the least.

Epics usually involve a hero, the article argues against that. An epic is also large in size and scope. IMHO opinion TSW is clearly not that either. So TSW is epic in the hyperbole sense of 'this was an epic burgher'. Not epic in the sense of Homers Iliad. (its arguably finished as quick as the burger too!).

Originally posted by Derpybird

Originally posted by elocke

Originally posted by Vapors

Originally posted by elocke
For me both games have the same problem.  Limited content and a storyline that just ends as well as boring ALT play due to redundant "leveling" paths.  Also, combat in both games needs an overhaul.  To me, any game that makes me want to find ways around mobs instead of fighting them, fails at FUN combat design.  It should MAKE me want to tackle every mob I see, not look for the easiest path around them or FORCE me to fight them when I dont' want to, as TSW and SWTOR do.  Epic fail on those fronts.

The question is simply how you want to to see the combat to be? Try to explain me your view of how should a shooting pumpgun and a shooting pistol look like and how should you shoot them up, by pressing 1 button or aiming with them with the mouse or stuff like that.

I guess its very hard for both of the games make the player satisfied, they can't make simple weapons to look like epic.

Im not sure but the most players just love to see awesome particle flying over your whole computers window (not a big fan of it personally)

My complaint about the combat is not the animation or graphics or even if its tab target or reticle.  My complaint is about how it "feels" and "flows".  It feels slow and tedious and not visceral at all.  GW2 combat is what I really enjoy, maybe even a hint of Tera's combat IF they would add more depth to it and get rid of the locked in place while casting, hence why I lean toward GW2.

I completely agree with this point. For PvE missions I had a high-AOE dmg build because everywhere I went I seemed to be fighting 3-5 of something. There was something about mob density that made even moving around the world tedious. I mean maps are just packed with stationary mobs, and some limited-patrol mobs, that stand between you and mission goals. Sprint-speed boosts helped to an extent, but I found myself just wanting to avoid combat because it was so repetitive. And even though mob design was sometimes very good, basic combat mechanics didn't seem to change, the exception being storyline bosses and dungeon content.

AoE circle straffing seems to be the way to go. The mob density detracted a bit for me, I was hoping more for a lovecraftian 'hidden evil'. The story is great but the world almost felt 'post apocalyptic' rather than leading up to the coming of great evil. 

Originally posted by burmese
TSW 'end' as we see it now is just 'Act I' as the Director pointed out - gives you an idea of how much content is still to come.

Problem is no one has managed to deliver content remotely quick enough to feed voracious players. Whether FC produce it as quick as Trion (rift) or SoE (DCUO) remains to be seen. Hell blizzard promised major monthly content updates until they realised tat they simpy could not, if they can not with there resources........

Originally posted by Gorilla

Hell blizzard promised major monthly content updates until they realised tat they simpy could not, if they can not with there resources........

Blizzard could have delivered monthly content for WoW if they wanted, but why should they? Before now, the expansion model has worked out really well for them. Why go for the more expensive route?

Hey folks. Victor here. 

I know my articles are a bit long, but I appreciate everyone going through them and chiming in... strangely enough, this is perhaps my shortest article to date. :D

The one difference between SWTOR and TSW, I think, is that TSW came after SWTOR. Funcom and Ragnarthulhu know that if they mess up with content update deliveries, they're going to be in a world of hurt in the long run. To maintain a good subscriber base, they have to appease casual players and people more dedicated to the game, which means having a good mix of all types of content to sustain interest.

I'm hoping they can maintain momentum. :D

Anyway, I'm going to go on an off-tangent for a moment. The main reason why this TSW article is shorter than this week's Devil's Advocate or the Lovecraft post from two weeks ago is because of torrential rains that have hit my country, the Philippines, these past few days. Flooding, property destruction, and general death and mayhem for people across a good portion of the northern side of the country.

In other words, I had to hurry up and send something worthwhile out in case I got flooded or lost power.

Anyway, if you folks have a spare dollar or two on a paypal account, perhaps you can send a donation to the Philippine Red Cross at http://www.redcross.org.ph/donate

Doing so will go a long way towards rescuing people and providing needed provisions that can be given to people who have lost their homes as a result of the flood.

Originally posted by Zooce

Victor, I applaud the format of this article over your previous entry.

In my opinion, you dug yourself in a deep hole in describing SW:TOR's problems, which mirror TSW's, and failed to climb back out when trying to distance TSW from SW:TOR.

 

SWTOR and TSW Limitations

 

To put it simply, the problem with SWTOR's and TSW's epic adventure is that it ends. There is a disconnect between this chosen hero you have raised to cap and the person he becomes upon reaching the cap.

 

Here you are, going on this grand journey as a heroic or dastardly sort of fellow with amazing storyline quests to take you to 50 and quality 10. Upon hitting the cap, however, the story hits its high point and then gradually reaches its inevitable end. The only way you progress further with your newly minted level 50 quality 10 epic hero is through the completion of the same high-level nightmare dungeons repeatedly for better EPIC gear or by engaging in PVP.

 

This is aggravated by the limited number of available quests to do among all possible characters you can make (no point rolling other characters in TSW), such that some stories in Transylvania get forcibly rehashed way too easily and thus water down other class (no point rolling other characters in TSW) playthroughs. Even worse, the content patches provided so far focused on aspects of the game that aren't really story-based (TSW's content patches focused on aspects of the game that are story-based yielding 12-16 hours of original content, majority of which was in pre-transylvania zones), and that's not what people wanted to experience in a game with such a rich lore component (and that's not what someone who is already finished with the short story and in quality 10 gear needs to distract them from the gear-treadmill endgame).

 

Just so you know, I applaud your framing of this. I can see where my thoughts can bring about your own rebuttals well!  Thank you. 

One thing I wasn't able to really discuss in detail (due to my attempt to focus on the TSW thing) was the difference in expectations for SWTOR and TSW.  SWTOR has had a little over half a year to distinguish itself and make money. It spent a lot, but didn't recoup its losses. It also carries with it a strong fan base of people who are heavily invested in Star Wars lore.

By comparison, TSW has had a month or so of activity. People have either blown through the game, or they are progressing slowly and enjoying themselves in a different way. There is no large fanbase with exaggerated expectations of awesomeness, so people have more realistic expectations (I'm hoping) for the game's direction. You can't please everyone in month one, but by providing different types of content across the next few months and being open about their directions, they can sustain interest and mitigate churn (people leaving versus people coming in).

That said, your points are quite valid, and I will admit that I may have had my blinders on when writing  some aspect of the epicness bit. I'm not at endgame yet... which would skew matters further. Thank you for addressing issues with my post. :)