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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » The Future of RMAH's

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112 posts found
  Loke666

Elite Member

Joined: 10/29/07
Posts: 16694

8/08/12 9:05:38 AM#61

I will not play gamess with D3 styled auction houses and that is that.

I will not even start to play a game with a monthly sub and which sells stuff to players no matter if those are just for looks or not.

  jusomdude

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 11/21/06
Posts: 2359

 
OP  8/08/12 9:09:06 AM#62
Originally posted by oubers
Originally posted by jusomdude
Originally posted by Anthur

There are only two parties that profit (money wise) from RMAH. The company that operates the RMAH and a very small minority of people (I do not call them players intentionally) who use the RMAH as part of their job to make money. It's business for them. They don't play the game, they don't care if the gameplay is fun or not. They work the RMAH for profit.

Personally, I don't need a second job. I want to play a game and not work the RMAH. All those players who think they can make a profit of a RMAH will be disappointed. Unless they change their game time into work time.

There will be players who try to make a living off it. I don't see how anyone is forcing you to make money in the game. If you don't want to try and profit off it then don't. 

Why do you get so uptight about it? The game is still there to be played for fun if that's all you care about.

I'm not even talking about D3. I'm talking about the possibility of RMAH in more games.

 

That's the nice thing about gaming. You can choose how you want to play.

If you dont see this then imo, you are blind to the inflation that these Pro-AH traders are causing in the ingame economy.

I played over 100 hours in D3 and still loving it.....but when i get stuck (by that i mean that the gear that drops for me is not enough to keep advancing through the game) i come to the conclusion that i dont have the money needed to buy anything (on the gold AH that is) good out there. Why is that?.....the inflation that these RMT have caused is even noticable in the gold AH.

I'll explain:  i need an item to advance (not top notch, just something that keeps me going), the price of these are between 2 MILLION gold and about 30 MILLION gold......i have in those 100+ hours just about 500K (yeah, as in thousands not millions) so if i want to buy something i have to go and buy gold of the real money AH for about 2,5€ for a million gold....so if i need a cool 10 MILLION (for 1 or maybe 2 items???) it costs me 25€ OR i can keep grinding the money (as the casual gamer that i am) and keep farming my own gold for the next 2 years so i can finally buy the item i need to advance.

Now you tell me that the real money traders and the Gold AH are two different things......so imho you sir, are blind to only that what you WANT to see.

End of my little rant :p

 

Well I don't know what you're playing but I've never spent more than 50k on the AH and have cleared act 1 Inferno as a Barb. I have a feeling I'm going to be here for awhile because the gear I need to progress comes very slowly. Anyways the game was intentionally designed this way, Blizzard has said so. If you're not patient enough to wait for the gear you need to drop or farm the gold for it then you can pay up or quit.

  Creslin321

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/27/09
Posts: 5424

8/08/12 9:22:53 AM#63
Originally posted by jusomdude
Originally posted by Creslin321

The RMAH is a terrible thing...please do not support it.  I will explain why it is terrible by attacking some of the popular arguments for the RMAH.

1.  Not everyone likes to farm/grind, the RMAH lets players spend money instead of time to progress!

Okay, who do you think decides whether you need to farm/grind extensively to progress?  And who do you think decides whether or not to implement an RMAH?  The answer to both these questions is THE DEVELOPER.  Do you not see a problem here?  This is like someone creating a horrible virus and then selling the cure.

Tje RMAH doesn't stop the grind...it GUARANTEES the grind.  If there is no incentive for players to buy things on it, the dev will not make money.  So they will design the game specifically to have a grind and encourage people to use the RMAH...see Diablo 3 for proof.

2.  The RMAH is great because now I can make money by playing a game!

There are two versions of this argument...one is the insane version where the player thinks they will not have to work at all because they will be making so much money in-game.  This version is just plain wrong in like 99.9% of cases.  Unless you figure out a way to exploit the system by using means against the rules like botting and stealing multiple accounts that you all run simultaneously...it is very unlikely that you will ever make sustainable income off an RMAH.  And why is this unlikely?  Simple...because you will be competing with people that are using methods against the rules to make money.

The less extreme version of this argument is where the player just wants to make enough money to pay for the cost of the game.  This isn't out of the realm of possibility, but think about this...it will probably take you MUCH more "work" to make your $60 back in-game than it would take to make that in a normal job.  Unless you really, really like farming, you are much better off just working a few hours overtime in a regular job as opposed to spending night after night farming to try to get enough items to earn $60 in game.

I started this topic about mostly a commodities RMAH which pretty everyone in the thread arguing against an RMAH has completely ignored.

Think of how much time it takes to get mats for enchanting/jewelcrafting/alchemy in WoW... that's right, not long at all. But regardless, people still don't want to do it. This is also not a design flaw. These small activities are part of what makes an MMO an MMO.

Things like enchants gems and pots are mostly what end game players spend their gold on. So there are a few scenarios of what would happen if these things were put into an RMAH... Farmers would farm them to hell making them worth almost nothing... This could be solved by a diminishing returns system. And the other is that there aren't enough to go around, making them worth more than they should be... could be solved by a max price value. Keep in mind these things could also be sold for gold, made yourself, etc... the RMAH isn't the only source, which is infinitely better than a cash shop.

Everyone here is stuck soley on D3's RMAH. Which is pretty much pay to win since there's end game gear sold on it.

 

BTW, I spend an hour or two a day ENJOYING D3, I still have yet to beat it on inferno. There's no slave laboring/farming going on. Yeah, I like finding good loot.. does that make me a farmer? I dunno you decide.

 

A commodities RMAH does nothing to change either argument I made...farming is still required to make it work.  

And as for a diminishing returns system...I think this would do more harm than good.  Players who can only play infrequently, but in long bursts of time (weekends) would suffer, and gold farmers probably wouldn't notice that much because of the scale of their operation.

As for being stuck on D3's RMAH...it's really the best example of a large scale RMAH ever implemented.  Of course it's going to be used as an example.

Finally, I'm sure that you can make a modest amount of money just playing the game as you normally would.  But you yourself said you have made under $50.  I really don't think that's worth all the other problems that come with an RMAH.

Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?

  jusomdude

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 11/21/06
Posts: 2359

 
OP  8/08/12 9:31:15 AM#64
Originally posted by Creslin321
Originally posted by jusomdude
Originally posted by Creslin321

The RMAH is a terrible thing...please do not support it.  I will explain why it is terrible by attacking some of the popular arguments for the RMAH.

1.  Not everyone likes to farm/grind, the RMAH lets players spend money instead of time to progress!

Okay, who do you think decides whether you need to farm/grind extensively to progress?  And who do you think decides whether or not to implement an RMAH?  The answer to both these questions is THE DEVELOPER.  Do you not see a problem here?  This is like someone creating a horrible virus and then selling the cure.

Tje RMAH doesn't stop the grind...it GUARANTEES the grind.  If there is no incentive for players to buy things on it, the dev will not make money.  So they will design the game specifically to have a grind and encourage people to use the RMAH...see Diablo 3 for proof.

2.  The RMAH is great because now I can make money by playing a game!

There are two versions of this argument...one is the insane version where the player thinks they will not have to work at all because they will be making so much money in-game.  This version is just plain wrong in like 99.9% of cases.  Unless you figure out a way to exploit the system by using means against the rules like botting and stealing multiple accounts that you all run simultaneously...it is very unlikely that you will ever make sustainable income off an RMAH.  And why is this unlikely?  Simple...because you will be competing with people that are using methods against the rules to make money.

The less extreme version of this argument is where the player just wants to make enough money to pay for the cost of the game.  This isn't out of the realm of possibility, but think about this...it will probably take you MUCH more "work" to make your $60 back in-game than it would take to make that in a normal job.  Unless you really, really like farming, you are much better off just working a few hours overtime in a regular job as opposed to spending night after night farming to try to get enough items to earn $60 in game.

I started this topic about mostly a commodities RMAH which pretty everyone in the thread arguing against an RMAH has completely ignored.

Think of how much time it takes to get mats for enchanting/jewelcrafting/alchemy in WoW... that's right, not long at all. But regardless, people still don't want to do it. This is also not a design flaw. These small activities are part of what makes an MMO an MMO.

Things like enchants gems and pots are mostly what end game players spend their gold on. So there are a few scenarios of what would happen if these things were put into an RMAH... Farmers would farm them to hell making them worth almost nothing... This could be solved by a diminishing returns system. And the other is that there aren't enough to go around, making them worth more than they should be... could be solved by a max price value. Keep in mind these things could also be sold for gold, made yourself, etc... the RMAH isn't the only source, which is infinitely better than a cash shop.

Everyone here is stuck soley on D3's RMAH. Which is pretty much pay to win since there's end game gear sold on it.

 

BTW, I spend an hour or two a day ENJOYING D3, I still have yet to beat it on inferno. There's no slave laboring/farming going on. Yeah, I like finding good loot.. does that make me a farmer? I dunno you decide.

 

A commodities RMAH does nothing to change either argument I made...farming is still required to make it work.  

And as for a diminishing returns system...I think this would do more harm than good.  Players who can only play infrequently, but in long bursts of time (weekends) would suffer, and gold farmers probably wouldn't notice that much because of the scale of their operation.

As for being stuck on D3's RMAH...it's really the best example of a large scale RMAH ever implemented.  Of course it's going to be used as an example.

Finally, I'm sure that you can make a modest amount of money just playing the game as you normally would.  But you yourself said you have made under $50.  I really don't think that's worth all the other problems that come with an RMAH.

Yes there is very minimal farming for it... not extensive farming like you said.

What are the problems that come with it?

So far you've said grinding... part of every MMO, don't see how it adds any extra problem.

Your second argument, well I'm not even sure what is the issue. Pro gold farmers are gonna do their thing no matter what, RMAH or not, and the average player thinking they're gonna make a living off it is delusional.

  maplestone

Novice Member

Joined: 12/10/08
Posts: 3109

8/08/12 9:43:49 AM#65
Originally posted by jusomdude

Scripts/exploits are controllable. Power farming could be controllable also... Maybe like a rested xp bonus, players who take longer breaks get bonuses to their GF/MF if we're talking in D3 terms.

If this were true, the RMT industry would have gone out of business by now.

I notice that the RMAH seems to have inspired a casino-like mentality in some players - that dream that they'll be able to support themselves playing games.  I think this is a very dangerous idea for people to get in their heads, to the point that if it persists, I think these games are in danger of being flagged as a form of gambling rather than gaming.

  crazynanny

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/03/10
Posts: 175

8/08/12 10:08:50 AM#66

 



Originally posted by Creslin321
1.  Not everyone likes to farm/grind, the RMAH lets players spend money instead of time to progress!
Okay, who do you think decides whether you need to farm/grind extensively to progress?  And who do you think decides whether or not to implement an RMAH?  The answer to both these questions is THE DEVELOPER.  Do you not see a problem here?  This is like someone creating a horrible virus and then selling the cure. Tje RMAH doesn't stop the grind...it GUARANTEES the grind.  If there is no incentive for players to buy things on it, the dev will not make money.  So they will design the game specifically to have a grind and encourage people to use the RMAH...see Diablo 3 for proof.

This is true, however the very same thing can be said about every MMO known to me with economy. Because in order to make something valuable/rare thus sellable at AH or other means to trade, developers tend to make obtaining those items quite time consuming(as this is only true currency in MMOs). Which almost always means grindy(better or worse masked). In D3 it feels as serious issue, but it's loot based game, way more than any mmo will ever be. Also I think it could be done better then Blizz did.

 

Regardless I prefer it from any F2P cash shop where developers often make it unpleasant to play game without buying items in store. In RMAH it's players who will have to get those items first. This limits game unfriendliness compared to cash shop version.

 



Originally posted by Creslin321
2.  The RMAH is great because now I can make money by playing a game!
There are two versions of this argument...one is the insane version where the player thinks they will not have to work at all because they will be making so much money in-game.  This version is just plain wrong in like 99.9% of cases.  Unless you figure out a way to exploit the system by using means against the rules like botting and stealing multiple accounts that you all run simultaneously...it is very unlikely that you will ever make sustainable income off an RMAH.  And why is this unlikely?  Simple...because you will be competing with people that are using methods against the rules to make money.
The less extreme version of this argument is where the player just wants to make enough money to pay for the cost of the game.  This isn't out of the realm of possibility, but think about this...it will probably take you MUCH more "work" to make your $60 back in-game than it would take to make that in a normal job.  Unless you really, really like farming, you are much better off just working a few hours overtime in a regular job as opposed to spending night after night farming to try to get enough items to earn $60 in game.
 
And where is most common "I play game, have fun and sell items I don't want/need" version? You sound like people(and I mean majority here) play D3 only in order to get money(be it income or just fixed amount) and I doubt it. You can easily sell used game and not everyone bothers with it. Same deal here, you can earn some $, but not everyone cares about it. I mean sure people try selling items, but when they get bored with game and AH/RMAH they just simply stop playing like with any other game.

 

  jusomdude

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 11/21/06
Posts: 2359

 
OP  8/08/12 10:16:29 AM#67
Originally posted by maplestone
Originally posted by jusomdude

Scripts/exploits are controllable. Power farming could be controllable also... Maybe like a rested xp bonus, players who take longer breaks get bonuses to their GF/MF if we're talking in D3 terms.

If this were true, the RMT industry would have gone out of business by now.

I notice that the RMAH seems to have inspired a casino-like mentality in some players - that dream that they'll be able to support themselves playing games.  I think this is a very dangerous idea for people to get in their heads, to the point that if it persists, I think these games are in danger of being flagged as a form of gambling rather than gaming.

It is true. RMT companies survive now days off thievery.

There will probably always be some sort of cheat/bots but for the most part they are very limited by bans. Thus controlled.

  crazynanny

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/03/10
Posts: 175

8/08/12 10:23:47 AM#68
Originally posted by maplestone

If this were true, the RMT industry would have gone out of business by now.

I notice that the RMAH seems to have inspired a casino-like mentality in some players - that dream that they'll be able to support themselves playing games.  I think this is a very dangerous idea for people to get in their heads, to the point that if it persists, I think these games are in danger of being flagged as a form of gambling rather than gaming.

I agree that before playing D3 people can think how nice it'd be to play game and earn money instead having a job. But most mentally healthy folks discover that in reality it's time consuming and not so fun as it seemed in the first place. And stable income is less likely than with any real life job.

I guess peeps with some mental instability can get addicted to this sort of gambling (although less dangerous then real gambling as you don't spend money here), but they usually do get addicted to different things as mean to escape from RL problems. See many stories about WoW addicts.

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

8/08/12 3:09:45 PM#69

It works in D3 because it's completely ignorable and D3 isn't a tight grouping game where you're going to guild up with some people and they're going to rely on you (and your gear) to make it through encounters successfully.

For it to work in other games, the same lack of pressure and lack of pay-to-win would have to be true.

But if it were true then I'm completely fine with it (for example if only vanity items could be RMAH'd by players.)

  laokoko

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/14/09
Posts: 1916

8/08/12 5:12:55 PM#70

My demon hunter's dps in Diablo 3(70k)

Some other guy with max gear gotten from RMAH(400k)

So you can see people who use real money pretty much hit 5-6 times stronger than me.  And if I want to have as good gear as the guy I need to farm like 5000 hours litterly.

The real problem is game company purposely makes the game really grindy and create huge power gap so people will use RMAH. 

That's the same problem with F2P games.  The problem is the games became purposely grindy and have huge power gap between people who spend money and those who don't.

  User Deleted
8/08/12 5:15:01 PM#71
I think a RMAH can work for a mmo but not for a Diablo game. 
  laokoko

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/14/09
Posts: 1916

8/08/12 5:24:58 PM#72

And the main reason I hate RMAH is it's so expensive. 

If Blizzard really want to make money, just sell us the items directly.  I could be buying a weapon from Blizzard store for 10$, but instead I have to buy it for 100$ from another player.  (either way Blizzard make the same amount of money, so why not just sell us the items directly).

  xdemonhunter

Novice Member

Joined: 4/24/12
Posts: 31

8/08/12 8:17:41 PM#73
Originally posted by laokoko

And the main reason I hate RMAH is it's so expensive. 

If Blizzard really want to make money, just sell us the items directly.  I could be buying a weapon from Blizzard store for 10$, but instead I have to buy it for 100$ from another player.  (either way Blizzard make the same amount of money, so why not just sell us the items directly).

Simple answer: because the players are that freaking dumb.

As of now Pay to Win is still seem as something to avoid the majority of population, and if Blizzard sold items directly to the players that would hit a red flag on majority of the players and they would complain the game is P2W since they selling that uber sword u want on their store with unlimited supply.

What Blizzard did was a moderate spin on the idea where the players "control" the RMAH and since it aint a company sellling but players farming and trading around it dosent look so much as P2W. Dosent look but it is the exact same thing in a different lable and it worked so well that while majority of people hates P2W Diablo 3 still sold like crazy.

It worked so well that we get someone posting a thread saying RMAH is the future and we should all love it... Kind hard to even take someone that thinks this is the right course of action but im gonna answer his original question.

Would selling only stuff like potions crafting mats and the like work on a RMAH? No, if u have any common sense and a brain u should know that much. This is something that can be easily exploited and made into pay to win by players themselfs... Here is an example: Lets say ur a new player and ur poor in game and dosent want or cant farm to make money but u got money in real life, what do u do? U buy tons and tons of potions with real money resell them for in game money and buy whatever uber godly gear. Congratulations, repeat the process a few times and u will be able to get the best available gear in that game that would take months for a non paying player in a matter of minutes (aka P2W).

  Warmaker

Novice Member

Joined: 5/04/07
Posts: 2235

8/08/12 9:13:31 PM#74

It surprises me that gamers over recent years are increasingly more accepting with monetary costs to do anything in games.

Mindboggling.

You guys would probably fine in the future for a monetary cost to change maps and zones.  Funny what direction this genre's going...

"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)

  waynejr2

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/12/11
Posts: 3734

RIP City of Heroes!

8/08/12 9:17:09 PM#75
Originally posted by Warmaker

It surprises me that gamers over recent years are increasingly more accepting with monetary costs to do anything in games.

Mindboggling.

You guys would probably fine in the future for a monetary cost to change maps and zones.  Funny what direction this genre's going...

What they don't see is that big companies like EA and Blizzard are more able to deal with a large up front cost that indie companies can easily deal with.  Demanding free games will force small guys out of the market and will feed into the hands of the big guys so many people dispise around here.

  maplestone

Novice Member

Joined: 12/10/08
Posts: 3109

8/08/12 10:05:03 PM#76
Originally posted by Warmaker

It surprises me that gamers over recent years are increasingly more accepting with monetary costs to do anything in games.

Mindboggling.

You guys would probably fine in the future for a monetary cost to change maps and zones.  Funny what direction this genre's going...

It used to be that you had to pay $0.25 to res.

  Creslin321

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/27/09
Posts: 5424

8/08/12 11:08:36 PM#77
Originally posted by maplestone
Originally posted by Warmaker

It surprises me that gamers over recent years are increasingly more accepting with monetary costs to do anything in games.

Mindboggling.

You guys would probably fine in the future for a monetary cost to change maps and zones.  Funny what direction this genre's going...

It used to be that you had to pay $0.25 to res.

Yeah and if I remember right, everyone was overjoyed that they no longer had to do this when consoles became big...and this is basically why arcades went out of business.

But now, it seems like we're going back to something not too dissimilar from the arcade model and a lot of people are jumping on board.

Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?

  xenogias

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/13/07
Posts: 1945

8/08/12 11:15:04 PM#78
Absolutely not. The RMAH in D3 has ruined the game for alot of people. More or less because of thier own stupidity buying good gear and having no reason to continue playing but still. I can honestly say I would never play an MMO with a RMAH. I may never play another game period that adds one. Games cost enough as it is. I dont want a RMAH trying to take more of my money for something I should be getting ingame with enough time. And no, the time it takes in D3 to get a top end item is not reasonable.
  LIOKI

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/02/08
Posts: 165

8/08/12 11:16:31 PM#79
What is to stop a company with a RMAH in their game to create shit drops in the game and flood the RMAH with the good gear at increased $$$ values? I can't see a company not "rigging the system" so to speak, to believe otherwise is a little naive.

Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.

  jusomdude

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 11/21/06
Posts: 2359

 
OP  8/08/12 11:24:27 PM#80
Originally posted by xdemonhunter
Originally posted by laokoko

And the main reason I hate RMAH is it's so expensive. 

If Blizzard really want to make money, just sell us the items directly.  I could be buying a weapon from Blizzard store for 10$, but instead I have to buy it for 100$ from another player.  (either way Blizzard make the same amount of money, so why not just sell us the items directly).

Simple answer: because the players are that freaking dumb.

As of now Pay to Win is still seem as something to avoid the majority of population, and if Blizzard sold items directly to the players that would hit a red flag on majority of the players and they would complain the game is P2W since they selling that uber sword u want on their store with unlimited supply.

What Blizzard did was a moderate spin on the idea where the players "control" the RMAH and since it aint a company sellling but players farming and trading around it dosent look so much as P2W. Dosent look but it is the exact same thing in a different lable and it worked so well that while majority of people hates P2W Diablo 3 still sold like crazy.

It worked so well that we get someone posting a thread saying RMAH is the future and we should all love it... Kind hard to even take someone that thinks this is the right course of action but im gonna answer his original question.

Would selling only stuff like potions crafting mats and the like work on a RMAH? No, if u have any common sense and a brain u should know that much. This is something that can be easily exploited and made into pay to win by players themselfs... Here is an example: Lets say ur a new player and ur poor in game and dosent want or cant farm to make money but u got money in real life, what do u do? U buy tons and tons of potions with real money resell them for in game money and buy whatever uber godly gear. Congratulations, repeat the process a few times and u will be able to get the best available gear in that game that would take months for a non paying player in a matter of minutes (aka P2W).

Are you serious? Buying the best items in the game... yeah, maybe with D3 but in a game like WoW for example the AH gear is mostly useless.

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