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112 posts found
  crazynanny

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/03/10
Posts: 175

8/08/12 3:23:14 AM#41

RMAH would be nice equivalent for regular cash shops, which are far more P2W than RMAH will ever be - due to infinite supply of items. Furthermore cash shops have way bigger influence on game development, which is commonly known as making game around cash shop. Surely RMAH allows that too, but not to same degree as after all it's players who have to supply needed items.

 

So it's quite strange that so many peeps are okay with cash shops which are far worse then RMAH will ever be. Conservatism aka being afraid of new things? Not to mention in cash shop case only company profits, in D3 RMAH majority of money goes actually to player.

  vgamer

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/27/11
Posts: 149

8/08/12 3:38:08 AM#42
Originally posted by jusomdude

Lol, really, the RMAH is a great thing. It works for Diablo3. It really isn't hard to clear Act 1 inferno with very cheap gear you get of the GOLD AH.

If players want to spend real money to advance then that's their choice.

Saying the RMAH will devolve into buy to win for games that implement it for things like I said in the first post is like saying games with similar things in their cash shops will devolve in to buy to win.

 

There is a lot of potential for RMAH. Yeah, it's gonna be a shit fest when pvp goes live in D3, since players can buy the best gear with real money... don't like it don't play it.

 

Care to share why it's such a bad thing besides the flawed assumption that it will devolve into buy to win? Keep in mind with what I suggested, ANY player can get the items traded through the RMAH whether or not they spend real money.

 

 

So your main reasoning for RMAH is that since it won't hurt me, it doesn't matter if it's implemented. Guess what, it will hurt us all as gamers.

 

I already said that Blizz is manipulating drop rates (hence the buff in some patch a while ago). That alone is undeniable proof of how YOUR RMAH will affect MY gameplay.

 

Then you continue your reasoning and state it's a flawed assumption that it will devolve in p2w. How is it flawed? Just take a look at 10 years ago. Now if I told you at the time in 10 years we would have cash shops like those in Age of Conan and Runes of magic (aka pay 2 win), you would laugh at me telling me im a stupid fool.

 

 Now 10 years later, runes of magic seems quite acceptable, pay to win starts to become the norm (although most gamers still frown upon). Suddenly, industry giant Blizz introduces this RMAH, where you can buy gear. You don't think other companies will pick this up (since diablo 3 sold 10 million copies)? You don't see how it will become acceptible FOR COMPANIES to do this?

 

Basically, because blizz did it it will be a more conventional thing to do. It will be forced down our throats and pay 2 win is inevitable.

 

 

 

PS: On your statement about how hacks and bots will be controllable. Even the pentagon was not immune for hacks. Imagine how a game like diablo 3 will become a target for hackers once real money gets involved.

  jusomdude

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 11/21/06
Posts: 2311

 
OP  8/08/12 3:43:36 AM#43
Originally posted by vgamer
Originally posted by jusomdude

Lol, really, the RMAH is a great thing. It works for Diablo3. It really isn't hard to clear Act 1 inferno with very cheap gear you get of the GOLD AH.

If players want to spend real money to advance then that's their choice.

Saying the RMAH will devolve into buy to win for games that implement it for things like I said in the first post is like saying games with similar things in their cash shops will devolve in to buy to win.

 

There is a lot of potential for RMAH. Yeah, it's gonna be a shit fest when pvp goes live in D3, since players can buy the best gear with real money... don't like it don't play it.

 

Care to share why it's such a bad thing besides the flawed assumption that it will devolve into buy to win? Keep in mind with what I suggested, ANY player can get the items traded through the RMAH whether or not they spend real money.

 

 

So your main reasoning for RMAH is that since it won't hurt me, it doesn't matter if it's implemented. Guess what, it will hurt us all as gamers.

 

I already said that Blizz is manipulating drop rates (hence the buff in some patch a while ago). That alone is undeniable proof of how YOUR RMAH will affect MY gameplay.

 

Then you continue your reasoning and state it's a flawed assumption that it will devolve in p2w. How is it flawed? Just take a look at 10 years ago. Now if I told you at the time in 10 years we would have cash shops like those in Age of Conan and Runes of magic (aka pay 2 win), you would laugh at me telling me im a stupid fool.

 

 Now 10 years later, runes of magic seems quite acceptable, pay to win starts to become the norm (although most gamers still frown upon). Suddenly, industry giant Blizz introduces this RMAH, where you can buy gear. You don't think other companies will pick this up (since diablo 3 sold 10 million copies)? You don't see how it will become acceptible FOR COMPANIES to do this?

 

Basically, because blizz did it it will be a more conventional thing to do. It will be forced down our throats and pay 2 win is inevitable.

 

 

 

PS: On your statement about how hacks and bots will be controllable. Even the pentagon was not immune for hacks. Imagine how a game like diablo 3 will become a target for hackers once real money gets involved.

There's about a bajillion online companies that handle money everyday. I guess they should stop because they can be hacked?

I don't even see how you came to the statement that it won't affect you. It will since it's in the game. Don't like it, don't play it... very simple.

Things that let me make a profit while doing something I love hurts me... hmmm... interesting.

I get it, you don't like the RMAH... moving on.

  User Deleted
8/08/12 6:33:51 AM#44

I think this article nicely sums up why RMAH is bad.

http://www.extremetech.com/gaming/131615-diablo-3-the-blizzard-sweatshop

The only people who benefit from RMAH are Blizzard, Goldfarmers, and botters.

  Hurvart

Novice Member

Joined: 11/02/10
Posts: 566

8/08/12 6:41:40 AM#45
Originally posted by TheAncient

I think this article nicely sums up why RMAH is bad.

http://www.extremetech.com/gaming/131615-diablo-3-the-blizzard-sweatshop

The only people who benefit from RMAH are Blizzard, Goldfarmers, and botters.

Exactly. It will turn you into a goldfarmer working for Blizzard.  I prefer to play games for fun. And if I work for someone I want much more money. And a much more interesting job...

  SchuMidas

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/14/12
Posts: 9

8/08/12 6:44:41 AM#46
what ever happen in D3 stays in D3, we cant let hell break losse
  jusomdude

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 11/21/06
Posts: 2311

 
OP  8/08/12 6:56:50 AM#47

It's not really true that only the farmers benefit. I play for 1-2 hours a day and have made under $50. Yeah the farmers can make better profits. But so what? No one is forcing people to play like this. The game is still there to be played any way the player sees fit.

The "real farmers" are in every game. Actually letting legit players trade real money between each other is at least a step towards putting illegal selling out of business.

 

You can't tell me that regular players can't make money, because being a regular player myself, I have already made a little off of it.

  crazynanny

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/03/10
Posts: 175

8/08/12 6:58:35 AM#48
Originally posted by TheAncient

I think this article nicely sums up why RMAH is bad.

http://www.extremetech.com/gaming/131615-diablo-3-the-blizzard-sweatshop

The only people who benefit from RMAH are Blizzard, Goldfarmers, and botters.

This whole article is just haters conspiracy theory. Like Blizzard having shady deals with gold farmers or  selling items on RMAH...

 

Not to mention whole article pressumption is that people are playing for money not for fun. Guess what had 200+ hours of solid entertainment from it, sold unneeded loot for different classes on RMAH and got enough to make D3 free + some summer Steam sale purchases. And why should I care that Blizz and Paypal got money from that? Name other game where I can play, have fun and get some pocket money from it(legal way that is)?

 

RMAH is not all that shiny and good(i.e. there is way to big pressure on itemization and not enough challenge via skill) but people exaggerate ALOT about it. There are more than enough youtube videos that prove that you don't need huge sums of gold nor real life $ to play and finish whole D3. If one lacks skill, patience and time, yes RMAH is a convinient shortcut, but such people would go for goldfarmers/item trading sites anyways.

  Salio69

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/29/06
Posts: 423

8/08/12 7:36:25 AM#49

i can only see RMAH working if people are given a choice in server. one with a regular subscription, 9.99-14.99, and another FTP server with RMAH.

this way players are given a choice to play the legit way, the way mmos were ment to be played.

or play the lazy way, those with no desire to actually do something for themselves and the unemployeed who "work" for them.

make sure theres no transfers allowed whatsoever between these 2 types of server and it will be win for legit players, win for the lazy players, and win for those who live with relatives and got no job.

  crazynanny

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/03/10
Posts: 175

8/08/12 7:47:29 AM#50
Originally posted by Salio69                                                                                                                                                             (...)the unemployeed who "work" for them.

(...) those who live with relatives and got no job.

This baffles me, why assume that someone selling item at RMAH has no job and no income? You play, you find nice items you don't have any use for(or simply don't want to) and you sell them at RMAH. It's all about luck(or bad luck as finding good but useless items for your class is frustrating). Done this thousand times, only difference was there was no RMAH, only gold AH one. I don't even count items that got obsolete cause I didn't need gold and wanted to save them for later or I stopped playing game.

 

  Salio69

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/29/06
Posts: 423

8/08/12 7:53:46 AM#51
Originally posted by crazynanny
Originally posted by Salio69                                                                                                                                                             (...)the unemployeed who "work" for them.

(...) those who live with relatives and got no job.

This baffles me, why assume that someone selling item at RMAH has no job and no income? You play, you find nice items you don't have any use for(or simply don't want to) and you sell them at RMAH. It's all about luck(or bad luck as finding good but useless items for your class is frustrating). Done this thousand times, only difference was there was no RMAH, only gold AH one. I don't even count items that got obsolete cause I didn't need gold and wanted to save them for later or I stopped playing game.

 

because at the end of the day, its those people who will benefit the most. they will make giant bot farms, each sitting on its seperate VM, with its own IP, farming endless as the owner shifts through all of them to make sure they are functioning properly and to respond to any GM PMs.

  crazynanny

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/03/10
Posts: 175

8/08/12 8:00:42 AM#52
Originally posted by Salio69
Originally posted by crazynanny
Originally posted by Salio69                                                                                                                                                             (...)the unemployeed who "work" for them.

(...) those who live with relatives and got no job.

This baffles me, why assume that someone selling item at RMAH has no job and no income? You play, you find nice items you don't have any use for(or simply don't want to) and you sell them at RMAH. It's all about luck(or bad luck as finding good but useless items for your class is frustrating). Done this thousand times, only difference was there was no RMAH, only gold AH one. I don't even count items that got obsolete cause I didn't need gold and wanted to save them for later or I stopped playing game.

 

because at the end of the day, its those people who will benefit the most. they will make giant bot farms, each sitting on its seperate VM, with its own IP, farming endless as the owner shifts through all of them to make sure they are functioning properly and to respond to any GM PMs.

Sure, but what does it have to do with RMAH? In every popular enough MMO you have those people not only botting/hacking and farming stuff but also spamming chats and hacking people that use their services accounts. I guess they can use RMAH(although they actually prefer not to as it's easier to track them) but that doesn't make their behavior more legal and they are banned in D3 like in every other MMO. Unless you go for conspiracy theory that Blizzard works with "them"...

  vgamer

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/27/11
Posts: 149

8/08/12 8:10:41 AM#53
Originally posted by jusomdude
Originally posted by vgamer
Originally posted by jusomdude

Lol, really, the RMAH is a great thing. It works for Diablo3. It really isn't hard to clear Act 1 inferno with very cheap gear you get of the GOLD AH.

If players want to spend real money to advance then that's their choice.

Saying the RMAH will devolve into buy to win for games that implement it for things like I said in the first post is like saying games with similar things in their cash shops will devolve in to buy to win.

 

There is a lot of potential for RMAH. Yeah, it's gonna be a shit fest when pvp goes live in D3, since players can buy the best gear with real money... don't like it don't play it.

 

Care to share why it's such a bad thing besides the flawed assumption that it will devolve into buy to win? Keep in mind with what I suggested, ANY player can get the items traded through the RMAH whether or not they spend real money.

 

 

So your main reasoning for RMAH is that since it won't hurt me, it doesn't matter if it's implemented. Guess what, it will hurt us all as gamers.

 

I already said that Blizz is manipulating drop rates (hence the buff in some patch a while ago). That alone is undeniable proof of how YOUR RMAH will affect MY gameplay.

 

Then you continue your reasoning and state it's a flawed assumption that it will devolve in p2w. How is it flawed? Just take a look at 10 years ago. Now if I told you at the time in 10 years we would have cash shops like those in Age of Conan and Runes of magic (aka pay 2 win), you would laugh at me telling me im a stupid fool.

 

 Now 10 years later, runes of magic seems quite acceptable, pay to win starts to become the norm (although most gamers still frown upon). Suddenly, industry giant Blizz introduces this RMAH, where you can buy gear. You don't think other companies will pick this up (since diablo 3 sold 10 million copies)? You don't see how it will become acceptible FOR COMPANIES to do this?

 

Basically, because blizz did it it will be a more conventional thing to do. It will be forced down our throats and pay 2 win is inevitable.

 

 

 

PS: On your statement about how hacks and bots will be controllable. Even the pentagon was not immune for hacks. Imagine how a game like diablo 3 will become a target for hackers once real money gets involved.

There's about a bajillion online companies that handle money everyday. I guess they should stop because they can be hacked?

I don't even see how you came to the statement that it won't affect you. It will since it's in the game. Don't like it, don't play it... very simple.

Things that let me make a profit while doing something I love hurts me... hmmm... interesting.

I get it, you don't like the RMAH... moving on.

You still ignore the point how this will be the new standard for ALL games. There is no choice and there is no moving on. I can't see how you can enjoy being a tool for blizzard unless you're on their payroll.

So yes, please hide from all the reasonable arguments brought by anti-RMAH people. Please do ignore it. It only shows that RMAH is bad for us the consumers and how willingly some people give up their rights to defend a nameless company who wouldn't give a crap if you got hacked. You're just a moneybag to them.

 

  Creslin321

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/27/09
Posts: 5424

8/08/12 8:32:24 AM#54

The RMAH is a terrible thing...please do not support it.  I will explain why it is terrible by attacking some of the popular arguments for the RMAH.

1.  Not everyone likes to farm/grind, the RMAH lets players spend money instead of time to progress!

Okay, who do you think decides whether you need to farm/grind extensively to progress?  And who do you think decides whether or not to implement an RMAH?  The answer to both these questions is THE DEVELOPER.  Do you not see a problem here?  This is like someone creating a horrible virus and then selling the cure.

Tje RMAH doesn't stop the grind...it GUARANTEES the grind.  If there is no incentive for players to buy things on it, the dev will not make money.  So they will design the game specifically to have a grind and encourage people to use the RMAH...see Diablo 3 for proof.

2.  The RMAH is great because now I can make money by playing a game!

There are two versions of this argument...one is the insane version where the player thinks they will not have to work at all because they will be making so much money in-game.  This version is just plain wrong in like 99.9% of cases.  Unless you figure out a way to exploit the system by using means against the rules like botting and stealing multiple accounts that you all run simultaneously...it is very unlikely that you will ever make sustainable income off an RMAH.  And why is this unlikely?  Simple...because you will be competing with people that are using methods against the rules to make money.

The less extreme version of this argument is where the player just wants to make enough money to pay for the cost of the game.  This isn't out of the realm of possibility, but think about this...it will probably take you MUCH more "work" to make your $60 back in-game than it would take to make that in a normal job.  Unless you really, really like farming, you are much better off just working a few hours overtime in a regular job as opposed to spending night after night farming to try to get enough items to earn $60 in game.

Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?

  Creslin321

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/27/09
Posts: 5424

8/08/12 8:44:43 AM#55
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by TheAncient
Originally posted by nariusseldon

I like it too.

The key is that finally a player, like me, can SELL items. And this will avoid gold inflation, because the currency is real and pecked to real value in the world.

It's pretty far from a real economy since Blizzard control all loot drops, and I believe there are alleged reports of those drops being manipulated by Blizzard to maximise their own end return.

I'd love to see the RMAH idea properly and thoroughly investigated by those more qualified than MMO review sites.

It is real ... because real money is used. I didn't say blizz cannot manipulate the market. In fact, OTHER real money markets (like stock & bonds) can be manipulated too.

The point is that the value is real, and NOT subject to arbitrary inflation as in a gold economy.

Now, Blizz took $1 for each transaction. Since they are not taking a percentage, there is no point in manipulation the prices. If they want money, all they need to maximize is the number of transactions.

 

The problem still exists, it's just turned on its head.

Gold inflation happens because the economy is constantly injected with gold from players acquiring it from mobs, quests, selling to NPCs, etc.  What happens is that the rate that gold supply increases exceeds the rate that tradeable good supply increases, so we wind up with gold inflation.  The comparatively rate items wind up costing more of the compartively common gold.

All the RMAH does is basically set the currency supply to real money so that it inflates very slowly (in game terms).  BUT IT DOES NOTHING TO CHANGE THE GOOD SUPPLY PROBLEM.  The economy can STILL suffer if the supply of goods increases too rapidly.  And in D3, with no soulbound items, this is definitely the case.

So instead of inflation, you will see deflation.  Items will get progressively cheaper and cheaper in real money terms as the supply of items increases rapidly, but the supply of currency (real money) stays relatively consistent.

My point is that the RMAH does nothing to solve the progressive economic problems we see in games.  These problems can be solved, but they will need to be solved by the dev actually creating a game that is designed to have a sustainable economy, with things like item decay etc...not by just tying currency to real money.

Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?

  jusomdude

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 11/21/06
Posts: 2311

 
OP  8/08/12 8:55:48 AM#56
Originally posted by Creslin321

The RMAH is a terrible thing...please do not support it.  I will explain why it is terrible by attacking some of the popular arguments for the RMAH.

1.  Not everyone likes to farm/grind, the RMAH lets players spend money instead of time to progress!

Okay, who do you think decides whether you need to farm/grind extensively to progress?  And who do you think decides whether or not to implement an RMAH?  The answer to both these questions is THE DEVELOPER.  Do you not see a problem here?  This is like someone creating a horrible virus and then selling the cure.

Tje RMAH doesn't stop the grind...it GUARANTEES the grind.  If there is no incentive for players to buy things on it, the dev will not make money.  So they will design the game specifically to have a grind and encourage people to use the RMAH...see Diablo 3 for proof.

2.  The RMAH is great because now I can make money by playing a game!

There are two versions of this argument...one is the insane version where the player thinks they will not have to work at all because they will be making so much money in-game.  This version is just plain wrong in like 99.9% of cases.  Unless you figure out a way to exploit the system by using means against the rules like botting and stealing multiple accounts that you all run simultaneously...it is very unlikely that you will ever make sustainable income off an RMAH.  And why is this unlikely?  Simple...because you will be competing with people that are using methods against the rules to make money.

The less extreme version of this argument is where the player just wants to make enough money to pay for the cost of the game.  This isn't out of the realm of possibility, but think about this...it will probably take you MUCH more "work" to make your $60 back in-game than it would take to make that in a normal job.  Unless you really, really like farming, you are much better off just working a few hours overtime in a regular job as opposed to spending night after night farming to try to get enough items to earn $60 in game.

I started this topic about mostly a commodities RMAH which pretty everyone in the thread arguing against an RMAH has completely ignored.

Think of how much time it takes to get mats for enchanting/jewelcrafting/alchemy in WoW... that's right, not long at all. But regardless, people still don't want to do it. This is also not a design flaw. These small activities are part of what makes an MMO an MMO.

Things like enchants gems and pots are mostly what end game players spend their gold on. So there are a few scenarios of what would happen if these things were put into an RMAH... Farmers would farm them to hell making them worth almost nothing... This could be solved by a diminishing returns system. And the other is that there aren't enough to go around, making them worth more than they should be... could be solved by a max price value. Keep in mind these things could also be sold for gold, made yourself, etc... the RMAH isn't the only source, which is infinitely better than a cash shop.

Everyone here is stuck soley on D3's RMAH. Which is pretty much pay to win since there's end game gear sold on it.

 

BTW, I spend an hour or two a day ENJOYING D3, I still have yet to beat it on inferno. There's no slave laboring/farming going on. Yeah, I like finding good loot.. does that make me a farmer? I dunno you decide.

 

  Nadia

Elite Member

Joined: 7/26/03
Posts: 11421

8/08/12 8:56:58 AM#57
Originally posted by Salio69

i can only see RMAH working if people are given a choice in server. one with a regular subscription, 9.99-14.99, and another FTP server with RMAH.

this way players are given a choice to play the legit way, the way mmos were ment to be played.

anything w the name "Blizzard" on it makes it seem shiny and new

 

SOE did this already for 5 years back in 2006

it was called Station Exchange, later named Live Gamer

  -- players could sell their characters, gear, gold

 

it was used on the mmos Everquest 2, Vanguard on select servers

SOE phased it out last year due to lack in popularity

 

SOE's Station Exchange - The Results of a Year of Trading   (2007 article)

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/1716/soes_station_exchange__the_.php

  jusomdude

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 11/21/06
Posts: 2311

 
OP  8/08/12 9:01:07 AM#58
Originally posted by Nadia
Originally posted by Salio69

i can only see RMAH working if people are given a choice in server. one with a regular subscription, 9.99-14.99, and another FTP server with RMAH.

this way players are given a choice to play the legit way, the way mmos were ment to be played.

anything w the name "Blizzard" on it makes it seem shiny and new

 

SOE did this already for 5 years back in 2006

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/1716/soes_station_exchange__the_.php

it was called Station Exchange, later named Live Gamer

  -- players could sell their characters, gear, gold

 

it was used on the mmos Everquest 2, Vanguard on select servers

SOE phased it out last year due to lack in popularity

 

Totally forgot about that, actually the only time I've ever bought gold. I think things would have gone differently if they didn't limit it to one server.

  Jabas

Elite Member

Joined: 7/23/08
Posts: 742

8/08/12 9:01:08 AM#59

I agree 100% with Creslin.

This gender is getting mad about "money grab".

We start to see games with B2P + P2P + CS, and was allready a bad thing.

Now the giant Blizard lunch D3 with RMAH and is allready a good thing...... this is getting crazy.

 

edit:typo

 

  oubers

Novice Member

Joined: 11/14/11
Posts: 879

8/08/12 9:02:37 AM#60
Originally posted by jusomdude
Originally posted by Anthur

There are only two parties that profit (money wise) from RMAH. The company that operates the RMAH and a very small minority of people (I do not call them players intentionally) who use the RMAH as part of their job to make money. It's business for them. They don't play the game, they don't care if the gameplay is fun or not. They work the RMAH for profit.

Personally, I don't need a second job. I want to play a game and not work the RMAH. All those players who think they can make a profit of a RMAH will be disappointed. Unless they change their game time into work time.

There will be players who try to make a living off it. I don't see how anyone is forcing you to make money in the game. If you don't want to try and profit off it then don't. 

Why do you get so uptight about it? The game is still there to be played for fun if that's all you care about.

I'm not even talking about D3. I'm talking about the possibility of RMAH in more games.

 

That's the nice thing about gaming. You can choose how you want to play.

If you dont see this then imo, you are blind to the inflation that these Pro-AH traders are causing in the ingame economy.

I played over 100 hours in D3 and still loving it.....but when i get stuck (by that i mean that the gear that drops for me is not enough to keep advancing through the game) i come to the conclusion that i dont have the money needed to buy anything (on the gold AH that is) good out there. Why is that?.....the inflation that these RMT have caused is even noticable in the gold AH.

I'll explain:  i need an item to advance (not top notch, just something that keeps me going), the price of these are between 2 MILLION gold and about 30 MILLION gold......i have in those 100+ hours just about 500K (yeah, as in thousands not millions) so if i want to buy something i have to go and buy gold of the real money AH for about 2,5€ for a million gold....so if i need a cool 10 MILLION (for 1 or maybe 2 items???) it costs me 25€ OR i can keep grinding the money (as the casual gamer that i am) and keep farming my own gold for the next 2 years so i can finally buy the item i need to advance.

Now you tell me that the real money traders and the Gold AH are two different things......so imho you sir, are blind to only that what you WANT to see.

End of my little rant :p

 

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