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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Reason PvP sucks in most games

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113 posts found
  bcbully

Elite Member

Joined: 3/03/12
Posts: 6485

8/07/12 3:34:04 PM#61
Originally posted by Rohn
Originally posted by Palladin

1. It is forced on all players in the open world I.E. Darkfall, Vanguard, Shadowbane

2. PvP specific gear

3. PvP specific gear for event pvp such as BGs and arena.

4. gear from 2 and 3 used in open world pvp.

 

 

 

One of the worst PvP trends in MMO gaming is that almost all of it is canned.  Everytime developers take one of the themepark "rides" out of the gameworld, they strip the game of life and immersion.

Want to adventure?  You'll have to go to PvE-World.  Want open world action?  Well, we really don't have that, but WvW-Land kinda simulates it, without actually being it (hurry, though, the current deathmatch ends in a couple of days).  Housing?  You'll find that in Housing-Land.

Now, games are an amalgamation of completely separate sub-games.  Personally, I think the best games are the ones in which almost everything happens in one, unified open world.

Same thing with character development - it's a key element of RPGs, and always has been.  The separation of sub-games is creating schizophrenic characters.

I agree.

  nate1980

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/03/09
Posts: 1812

8/07/12 3:45:59 PM#62

I'd say PvP sucks in most games because there's little point to it, it's too fast paced, and the players behind them are bunny hopping kids.

Good PvP, iMHO, will be based around conquering other factions through siege and territory control. That gives us a point to PvP. The pace of combat should be a lot slower so that tactics and strategy could be used. Formations should be beneficial, unit collision should be in place, and when you die, it should take you a while before you can rejoin the main battle.

I think the pace SWG had in combat was good. It would take me up to 15 minutes for a friend and I to finish a duel. That was good, but nothing compared to the 30min + it took 2 Jedi to fight.

  nate1980

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/03/09
Posts: 1812

8/07/12 3:50:33 PM#63
Originally posted by Lucioon

When you have specific roles for each class, then PVP won't work in that game.

Because how can you balance an Healer vs DPS, or an Tank vs Healer, in a game with Roles, those Roles works together against an NPC. But when you turn those roles against eachother, then those roles becomes an Hinderance.

Thats why Trinity will never work in an PVP setting, it will be too hard trying to balance the Trinity against each other when you are trying to separate them from eachother for PVE.

 

The roles don't change in PvP. A healer still heals, a tank still tanks, and dps still burns down the enemy players. The only difference between PvP and PvE is that you're not sure what the PvPers will do.

  Odinthedark1

Novice Member

Joined: 10/06/11
Posts: 338

"A fool learns from his own mistakes, a wise man learns from the mistakes of others."

8/07/12 4:02:12 PM#64
i like open world pvp sure but whats with the hate on instanced pvp, why not go out kill people in the world WHILE in queue for BG's / Arena's....i personally like both, instanced you can just jump in anywhere and its convenient lets say if theres no1 flagged or theyre running out and in safe zones...i can see why if you are a lore obssessive person instanced pvp would be bad but pvp doesnt go with lore anyway as lore usually focuses on ONE hero being your character and a bunch of characters killing each other doesnt make sense lore wise. so why do so many people hate it, is it simply too competitive and in your face? cause business wise a game that gets the player's to play competitively will usually sell better in that it gives a person a goal or incentive to actually pvp...the sad fact is unless a good sandbox comes out open world pvp is garbage in that ur usually penalized and if successful get no reward for killing other players while taking the risk....people need a reason to kill....
  nate1980

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/03/09
Posts: 1812

8/07/12 4:03:13 PM#65
Originally posted by Lienhart

Actually, you're all wrong.

Most MMO PvP are usually

Time invested == Skill

That is the reason why MMO PvP is shit. Compare this to other genres that have PvP, it suddenly becomes

Effective Time Invested == Skill

However, MMOs are created to take the OCD in us and slam it till we break.

RPG's are all about time invested = power. You're looking for the FPS genre, not RPGs for PvP.

  gasperk

Novice Member

Joined: 7/22/12
Posts: 62

8/07/12 4:06:33 PM#66

Yeah i got to agree with you reallyhere, having clases that use specific sets of abilities that can be made to synergize an work off each other is great for pvp. The issue I see as i have said before is that most mmo pvp combat is based around using pve-values for the pvp, but then adjusting that value to balance pvp which imbalnces the pve side of the game causing a cycle of blancing changes between each side. If you create the game around having one set of values for abilities that is for pvp combat, and then one set for pve combat you can balance each class for both pvp combat an pve combat without either balancing attempt effecting the other. Then also having gear that is tailred towards pve or pvp combat without it actually having stats that are solely for pve or pvp helps further as each part of the combat is independent of each other.

Exactly. It adds depth to PVP and gameplay in MMO's. :)

Do you mean something like the system that was added in Guild Wars 1 ?

abilities were balanced differently for PVP and PVE.

More like each ability had two different set of variables (ike damage, duration, and such.) for pve, and pvp based combat. This way a fireball could be balanced to deal one set of damage in pvp an another in pve combat, or a stun last five seconds in pvp an 12 seconds in pve, this way you actually have essially one versiion of the ability that is balanced for pvp an another for pve without worrying about either effecting the other. Since the values of each are serperate from each other, and since games already can distinguish between npcs an players switching the effect between the pvp an pve values to determine the effect could be handled as well. Been too long since i played gw1 so not sure, that is the best i can discribe it though. If you wish i can give it another try when i get back.

 

Yeah this is something like the GW did :D

  tixylix

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/02/11
Posts: 1043

8/07/12 6:42:08 PM#67
Originally posted by Kiljaedenas
Originally posted by tixylix

I only like open world PVP, don't bother with any thing else because why play an MMO if you want arena or BGs? Might as well play CS or something....

Sadly open world PVP doesn't exist any more outside Dayz really and that isn't even an MMO, though it's more like one than most MMOs these days.

You forgot Eve Online, open world PvP is in that too.

Yeh but EVEs combat requires no skill, all about what ship you bring and how many of you there are.

  Vapors

Elite Member

Joined: 1/16/10
Posts: 328

8/07/12 6:55:38 PM#68
Originally posted by Lucioon

When you have specific roles for each class, then PVP won't work in that game.

Because how can you balance an Healer vs DPS, or an Tank vs Healer, in a game with Roles, those Roles works together against an NPC. But when you turn those roles against eachother, then those roles becomes an Hinderance.

Thats why Trinity will never work in an PVP setting, it will be too hard trying to balance the Trinity against each other when you are trying to separate them from eachother for PVE.

 

Strange how did full pvp based moba fire games balanced it then? Now im really confused.

And it's easily balanced Healer vs. Dps, in the most games you can't burn down the healer solo as dps, Tank vs Healer= in the most games healer can't kill the tank because his lifereg or selfheal is to high.

Sure there are games not balancing it, but then I didn't play them.

As much I see from your post, youre gaming experience isnt very thought or you played the wrong games:D

  Ramanadjinn

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/08/11
Posts: 1126

8/07/12 6:56:14 PM#69
Originally posted by nate1980
Originally posted by Lucioon

When you have specific roles for each class, then PVP won't work in that game.

Because how can you balance an Healer vs DPS, or an Tank vs Healer, in a game with Roles, those Roles works together against an NPC. But when you turn those roles against eachother, then those roles becomes an Hinderance.

Thats why Trinity will never work in an PVP setting, it will be too hard trying to balance the Trinity against each other when you are trying to separate them from eachother for PVE.

 

The roles don't change in PvP. A healer still heals, a tank still tanks, and dps still burns down the enemy players. The only difference between PvP and PvE is that you're not sure what the PvPers will do.

 

his point was that this is PVE centric class design and it is one of the major problems behind pvp balance in many games.  this is the reason the unkillable healers, worthless or overpowered tanks, and overly bursty dps, and simplistic paper/rock/scissors style balance are so ubiquitous in games.  these same pvp balance issues appear in so many games because they all have the same pve mechanic driving their character creation.

@ the guys talking about MOBAs.. this is all in reference to MMORPGS.. not mobas designed to be mobas.  that is a different genre of games with completely different class design goals.

 

  rutaq

Elite Member

Joined: 8/08/06
Posts: 388

8/07/12 7:57:46 PM#70

In my opinion PvP sucks in most MMOs because...

  • PvP has been perverted by rules and regulations to make it like just some lame e-sport with a goal to collect, tokens, badges, honor points,etc...
  • PvP has no impact in the game world.  No significant impact, No Changes, No losing, Just slowing earning more cookies...
  • PvP has no risk, losing is just a momentary delay before you can carelessly throw yourself at your enemy again.
  • PvP have no big picture purpose,  like the old days of fighting over limit resources, over land, over Boss mobs, etc...

 

And the biggest reason it sucks is that, too many people join a PvP server but don't really want to complete fully.  

  •  They don't want complex world competition like vying for control of a critical resources,  NPC city or leveling zone.
  •  They don't want an open system that pits them against players that play hard, give 100% and work to gain advantages over them.  They want to compete without the preapring, trainiing or working for it.
  •  They don't want a system that has any risk and even demand that losing should be rewarded, just with few cookies than winning.
  •  They don't want a complex and variable competitive environment, instead favoring a controlled and stifling e-sport that rewards continually re-spawning until your enemy falls asleep or quits the match out of boredom.

In the end their favorite PvP is the kind that simple doesn't matter and is completely forgettable, hence the sucking...


  Ramanadjinn

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/08/11
Posts: 1126

8/07/12 8:01:32 PM#71
Originally posted by rutaq

 

In the end their favorite PvP is the kind that simple doesn't matter and is completely forgettable, hence the sucking...

 

a classic utopian dilemma actually.. if everyone gets what they want what challenge, thrill, and adventure is left?

victory can only exist because defeat exists

and other light/shadow buddhist type of stuff.

i like your point is what i'm trying to say.

  dethlord

Novice Member

Joined: 6/26/06
Posts: 16

8/07/12 8:07:07 PM#72
Originally posted by Palladin

1. It is forced on all players in the open world I.E. Darkfall, Vanguard, Shadowbane

2. PvP specific gear

3. PvP specific gear for event pvp such as BGs and arena.

4. gear from 2 and 3 used in open world pvp.

5. Movement during combat is to fast and furious it should be reduced by 50%

 

IT'S MY OPINION:

BGs and Arenas are fine if the gear rewards only work in those events but should never be allowed in open world.

PvP should never be forced on anyone unless they "chose" to engage.

I see no reason for pvp specific gear

this guys opinion is so far off its no wonder devs get confused when taking feedback from a playerbase.

Deth to you ALL!

  rutaq

Elite Member

Joined: 8/08/06
Posts: 388

8/07/12 8:49:14 PM#73
Originally posted by Ramanadjinn
Originally posted by rutaq

 

In the end their favorite PvP is the kind that simple doesn't matter and is completely forgettable, hence the sucking...

 

a classic utopian dilemma actually.. if everyone gets what they want what challenge, thrill, and adventure is left?

victory can only exist because defeat exists

and other light/shadow buddhist type of stuff.

i like your point is what i'm trying to say.

 

ummm ..Thanks.

 

You brought up a good point.   In good PvP, for one players to the have the thrill and excitement of winning another must feel the anguish and frustration of losing, another reason that most MMOs stay far away from truely competitiive PvP.

 

  Swollen_Beef

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 7/15/09
Posts: 203

8/07/12 8:50:56 PM#74
PvP sucks today because too much importance is placed on gear. Skill is nearly removed.
Class balance isn't too much of an issue depending on how PvP was originally designed.
In DAOC's case, the game was designed for huge sieges and zergs. Individual class balance wasn't as important. That was until people decided 8v8 was more important than realm defense. Then with TOA... Well, most know how that essential ruined it.
  zymurgeist

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/24/04
Posts: 5144

8/07/12 8:57:57 PM#75

Wonder weapons? My God, I don't see the wonder in them. Killing without heroics. Nothing is glorified, nothing is reaffirmed. No heroes, no cowards, no troops. No generals. Only those that are left alive and those that are left... dead. ~Patton, the movie

 

Pretty much sums it up for me. All PvP since Shadowbane has been utterly meaningless.

"Any sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice." ~Greys Law

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

8/07/12 11:59:56 PM#76
Originally posted by rutaq

In my opinion PvP sucks in most MMOs because...

  • PvP has been perverted by rules and regulations to make it like just some lame e-sport with a goal to collect, tokens, badges, honor points,etc...
  • PvP has no impact in the game world.  No significant impact, No Changes, No losing, Just slowing earning more cookies...
  • PvP has no risk, losing is just a momentary delay before you can carelessly throw yourself at your enemy again.
  • PvP have no big picture purpose,  like the old days of fighting over limit resources, over land, over Boss mobs, etc... 

And the biggest reason it sucks is that, too many people join a PvP server but don't really want to complete fully.  

  •  They don't want complex world competition like vying for control of a critical resources,  NPC city or leveling zone.
  •  They don't want an open system that pits them against players that play hard, give 100% and work to gain advantages over them.  They want to compete without the preapring, trainiing or working for it.
  •  They don't want a system that has any risk and even demand that losing should be rewarded, just with few cookies than winning.
  •  They don't want a complex and variable competitive environment, instead favoring a controlled and stifling e-sport that rewards continually re-spawning until your enemy falls asleep or quits the match out of boredom.

In the end their favorite PvP is the kind that simple doesn't matter and is completely forgettable, hence the sucking...

Well yeah, we mostly want pure skillful competition.  We don't want watered down casual PVP.

Which is odd because usually the more casual thing (PVP where you can gain substantial advantages through time investment or zerging, instead of just skill) is less popular.  Usually it's the other way around.

World PVP is about as thrilling as if someone made a war movie about a bunch of marines killing some civilians.  There'd be no conflict; no drama; no excitement; just a steamroll.  No entertainment.  But entertainment is the point of games!

  Sixfeetunder

Novice Member

Joined: 2/19/07
Posts: 185

----------------------Game: EQ 1&2-SWG-WoW-DnL-DDO-SoH-GW1-AoC-WAR-Aion-Rift-SWTOR-D3-TSW-GW2

8/08/12 12:05:15 AM#77

i think the biggest prob is balance class and secondo ... noob player with bad skill choice , don't understand your class combo

 

mythosopic Xfire Miniprofile
  waynejr2

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/12/11
Posts: 3663

RIP City of Heroes!

8/08/12 12:13:52 AM#78
Originally posted by Truelevel
Originally posted by Kiljaedenas
Originally posted by Lienhart

Actually, you're all wrong.

Most MMO PvP are usually

Time invested == Skill

That is the reason why MMO PvP is shit. Compare this to other genres that have PvP, it suddenly becomes

Effective Time Invested == Skill

However, MMOs are created to take the OCD in us and slam it till we break.

What's wrong with this? Why shouldn't someone who's spent a lot of time practising PvP be better than someone who hasn't? That's usually the way it works in any PvP game. If for example I went and played a couple of rounds of Counterstrike I'd fully expect someone who plays a couple of hours a day to kick my ass up down and sideways compared to me who plays at most once a week (and often not even that). It's simple, raw fact; if you spend a lot of time doing something you get good at it. So of course time invested = skill.

I believe what Lienhart is talking about is the accumulated advantage "over time" regardless of skill.

Take 2 players... Player A and Player B are just starting out in a new MMO

Player A, usually has 3 hours a day to play.. hand-eye cordination isnt good but he makes up for it with experience.

Player B, has only about 2 hours to play sporadically throughout the week.. he has great hand-eye cord and reflexes.

After a span of 2 months player A and B meet up in battle and player A kills player B due to the equipment he obtained through raiding (which of course everybody knows raids are time consuming). Using your counterstrike example player A wouldnt last a week against player B because... [skill/talent > Weapons/experience]

you haven't shown why the player's skill should be more important than the character's gear.   The mage is casting a fireball the player can't.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 17961

8/08/12 1:53:46 AM#79
Originally posted by hyllstarter
Open world pvp rules !!! I never understood why people liked the canned instanced pvp.

fairness, convenience, scripted events and more interesting objectives .. lots of reasons.

In fact, i don't play games with open world pvp, only instanced, or no pvp.

  jusomdude

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 11/21/06
Posts: 2261

8/08/12 1:57:36 AM#80

Everyone has their ideal PvP system. Mine would be something like EvE's where you can attack noobs but also at great risk to yourself.

Also, there should be better rewards to gain in less secure areas.

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