Despite only being 21, I hate feeling like Ripvanwinkle when I tell my new-to-MMO friends about questing in the days of EQ, Dark Age of Camelot, EQ2, and SWG.  And now, the debate about MMO's going Free to Play because subscriptions end with only a month or so of content (Think ToR or Post-Lich King WoW) has got me wondering:

Perhaps the problem with MMO's today is that they're too easy to level through.  When I think back on the games mentioned above, it took countless hours to reach the level cap (usually 50 or 60) because leveling was just plain slow.  The areas weren't littered with fetch/kill quests that then pumped out crazy amounts of experience.  They were still crucial to leveling, but you also did have to grind, explore or go through dungeons multiple times (more on dungeons later).

I wholly believe the worst impact WoW had on MMOs was making the end-game content more appealing than the journey itself.  Mind you, I played the ever-living heck out of WoW and I appreciate it's financial success/popularity, but I feel it's lasting impact left too many gamers with a lesser patience for leveling.  Nowadays, it's all about the shinies you receive from the Big Bad Boss

And with this lack of patience comes a lack of cooperation.  Am I the only one who feels like mid-game dungeons are pretty worthless now besides a leveling sling-shot?  This feeling was incredibly pronounce when I played through the most recent version of WoW, and in my time playing ToR.  I could either go through the dungeon/Flashpoint, or just keep weeding through my log of kill/fetch quests.  In both cases, the loot or experience was comparably the same (in that they are utterly worthless in the next area).  It wasn't always like this.  Dungeons used to be critical to advancing your character (unless you wanted to weed-wack Smelly Gnomes for 12 hours), and you usually had to play through them more than once.

Maybe I'm just cynical and rose-tinted glasses, but I miss the journey rather than reducing my experience to Derping in 4 end-game dungeons while everyone else whines about a lack of  end-game dungeons.

Originally posted by Asuran24
I am not sure i would say that it is too easy, as much as it is to fast paced rather. Like you said in games like pre lk wow for an example alot of your gaming time actually was spent leveling thru the game content,  meeting other players int eh world daly, and investing in the game more an more as each day passed. Then comes the mmos from post lk wow where it is all about progressing to the end game to join a high end guild, gear up for the raids, and spending as little time as possible in content that is not getting you to this end result.

Exactly

I do not think an MMO should launch with an end game due to this exact problem you mentioned. As long as you have end-game people are brainwashed now and set in their ways, its just been beat into their wowbie heads that they have to get to end game. There are ways to make leveling fun and rewarding but devs now have not done their part to do so. Basically this all boils down to the garbage themepark models we have now. 

     Way to easy and quick..  Since playing WoW and ever game since, why bother even doing a dungeon when the rewards you recieve are obsolete the next day or two..  I prefer the way it used to be, when leveling WAS the game.. The journey was what you enjoyed, not the finish line.. When I was doing crafting in EQ1 it was worth while because as I took the time getting the mats, the items I made lasted longer then a day.. It baffles me that so many players want a game that allows you to max out in less then a month, then what? 

     If I was Lord of the gaming empire, I would make it so the average person would reach max level in about 2,000 playing hours.. maybe more.. lol  I would also make it so that non-combat activities such as fishing, cooking, crafting etc etc  are available and have a useful purpose.. I grew up that MMORPG's were just an online extention of AD&D with a semi virtual world..

The thing I am seeing now is that most mmo developers are not planning on what to do with an increase in level cap.  They are using an exponential exp curve instead of a linear curve.  This leads to quick progression through early levels, and extremely slow progression in later levels.  To me its a failure of design as the only enjoyable levels become the originally intended cap of the game.  This is excluding WoW and looking at a general picture of mmos 2~4 years out.  Personally, I would like to see y=2x+200 then y=x^1.2+10.  Where y = exp needed and x = level.

The other thing I am beginning to hate is the level progression system in general.  Most players like the level progression system because it gives them a set goal and they can see there growth.  However, I think a better system would be one that gives players more options as they progress in the game rather then make them more powerful.  This would make balancing new zones easier and not make starter zones ghost towns.

Just to add in too..

     I want a game that takes me over a year of playing before I see "end game"..  This way I can enjoy some social raiding at max level for a few months before the next expansion comes out.. And, I want to see expansions like the ones we saw with EQ's Kunark, SoV and SoL.. 

I think MMOs today have too quick of leveling, however, the leveling content is designed in a way that if it took too long to level, the leveling process would just be mind numbingly boring.

Take a game like Everquest, for example, with its extremely slow leveling.  However, the content wasn't designed in such a way that there was a huge focus on max level only content (I'm talking the original game and the first few expansion here, I am well aware it changed later on).

There were ton of non-max level dungeons in the early years of the game that were a ton of fun - Blackburrow, Najena, Crushbone, Befallen, Paw, Cazic Thule, Upper and Lower Guk, Solusek A and B (some of these had level 50 areas, but also large portions of non level 50 content).  In Kunark you had plenty of new ones like Kurn's, Dalnir, Nurga, Kaesora, Karnor's, Sebilis, and Howling Stones (again, some had areas for level 60 players, but also large areas for non level 60s).  Plus, you had probably a dozen or more outdoor zones no matter what level you were that was level appropriate.  Raids weren't even restricted to max level characters.  You could do Hate/Fear at 46 and people were still doing these long after the level cap went past 50.

Now, look at a game like RIFT.  Each level range basically has one zone and one instance to level in.  If it took months to level in the game, it would be painfully boring.

I guess I'm agreeing with you while simultaneously pointing out that Everquest had more content than modern MMOs.

Speaking as an EQ veteran (played from release till fairly recently) I find the current spread of MMORPG's a joke when it comes to leveling, the last MMO I bought (and greatly regret) was SWTOR. Leveling in that was way way to easy. I played WoW for abit, and without a leveling guide was able to get to max level in about a week to 10 days, again way way to easy.

Speaking of the good old days (1999 EQ) you had to group with people and actually play (grind) through content, once you got through it you had a sense of achievement that you had done something that was quite hard.

To me and my psuedo understanding of psychology, I just put it down to the crazy entitlement culture thats begun to spring up everywhere, everyone seems to want everything and they want it now. It might just be me, but people just don't want to work for anything anymore, and for me I find that this wrecks the games that are currently being designed and released.

There is seriously nothing wrong with it taking a few months to reach end game, if MMO developers did this it would enable content to be spread in such a way as to accomodate both hard core games and casual gamers.

I doubt I'll see the likes of EQ as it was again, the times have changed and so have the people playing the games.

Originally posted by Cleffy

The other thing I am beginning to hate is the level progression system in general.  Most players like the level progression system because it gives them a set goal and they can see there growth.  However, I think a better system would be one that gives players more options as they progress in the game rather then make them more powerful.  This would make balancing new zones easier and not make starter zones ghost towns.

     Good observation.. I had thought of that myself a number of years ago.. As some have mention is to focus on horizontal gaming instead of vertical progression.... Especially if you wish to have any sort of PvP in the game.. Why have a game where people are going around one shotting old content or younger players..  Instead of level progression.. Why not make more of reputation progression.. What this does is do as you said.. It opens up new travel paths , zones and cities... I can see maybe having some slight variance in gear that would allow some increase in power, but not what we are accustomed to.. This way people never truely outlevel older content..

Originally posted by Rydeson

     Way to easy and quick..  Since playing WoW and ever game since, why bother even doing a dungeon when the rewards you recieve are obsolete the next day or two..  I prefer the way it used to be, when leveling WAS the game.. The journey was what you enjoyed, not the finish line.. When I was doing crafting in EQ1 it was worth while because as I took the time getting the mats, the items I made lasted longer then a day.. It baffles me that so many players want a game that allows you to max out in less then a month, then what? 

     If I was Lord of the gaming empire, I would make it so the average person would reach max level in about 2,000 playing hours.. maybe more.. lol  I would also make it so that non-combat activities such as fishing, cooking, crafting etc etc  are available and have a useful purpose.. I grew up that MMORPG's were just an online extention of AD&D with a semi virtual world..

I would play that game, if there was enough content / gameplay to keep those 2,000+ hours fun.

Too easy and too fast.  We need to get rid of this mindset that max level is where the game begins.

Make max level seem like a distant dream.  Remember L2 during it's prime?  Nobody talked about max level because most players were never going to get there.

My ideal progression would come from GW 1's skill points.  Every time you'd "level up," you'd get x amount of skill points, which would then be placed into individual skills.  That way, no two healers, fire/frost/earth mages, or even warriors would need to function in the same manner.  Plus, you remove balancing areas by just making the npcs have more health/armor so the player can tackle them as needed.

Thinking further, I've also realized how the quick progression has cut away at incredible roleplaying mechanics.  I'm a huge fan of player housing/communities like in LOTRO, EQ2 and SWG (obviously Galaxies was much further refined).  The sheer amount of hours I spent invested in roleplaying these various games alone made each monthly drop worthwhile.

Leveling speed is pretty irrelevant.

Whether a game provides continually interesting challenges is what matters (possibly making things more interesting with rewards, but games fun for their own sake works too.)

It's always seemed a little odd to me, in games where the game keeps going past max level, that people seem to fixate severely on the fact that they've stopped leveling.  That's why it felt smart of Trion to implement its post-max-level progression system using the same XP bar and general mechanics as leveling.  Gives them the that hit of level-up they were addicted to, while holding real levels for what matters (talents+new abilities).

I played an EQ-Necromancer and I needed 90 days (ingame playtime) to Lvl 60. Did I have fun? Not every day. But you bet, I had more days of fun in EQ than in all the games together, I played later.

I dont want all the old-school mechanics back. Some mechanics have been terrible. And there are a lot of features in modern MMOs like. But it was a big mistake from WoW and EQ2 in 2004 to abandon some of the mechanics of old-school MMOs.

Even looking to a game like GW2, which is different and looks promising, i am sure, that i cant play it for years. I will be done in a few months (which is way more than with any wow-clone). Is that the famous new business model of the devs nowadays? That i am done with their game after a few months?

What about this: Get rid of the leveling system and focus on content. 

A leveling system is artificial progression, actual skill in combat and knowledge should matter instead of relying on this archaic system as a indicator how strong one is.

First of all linear levelling system is not good thing tbh.

Secondly nowadays levelling consist of literally hundreads of simple quests (and maybe 5-10% have anything interesting in them) which is boring.

Making quests more interesting backgroundly (better story or stupidly expensive full VO) is not helping much cause those qests STILL SUCK.

Why?

1. too many of simple kill 5 wolfs or bring 5 livers

2. HAND-HOLDING = quest gps, markers on map and mini-map, highlighted items / places in-game, etc

Point nr. 2 making point number 1 even worse and pushing back players even more.

Add insanely easy mobs, that instead of being more robust and interesting are too densely packed every 2 meters and you have recipe for disaster. = people not wanting to do this content.

So yes levelling is too easy, but whole problem is multi-layered and much more complicated.

Levellling system especially in it's current form is flawed on so many levels, than I found it hard to wrote short post about it 'on-the-fly' (I could make it much shorter and better but since noone is paying me for this I won't bother).

Developer Rock or a Hard Place.

Which would you rather face on the forums?

A) Just bought this game, 8 years behind, won't ever catch up, I'm quitting.

B) Omg ezmode leveling, too fast, I'm quitting.  They don't even have to jog for 40 levels!

"Every way you look at this, you lose."--P. Simon

Devs do generally vote for the new player retention direction.  Many will definitely argue against.