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Guild Wars 2

Guild Wars 2 

General Discussion  » GW2 Stats and Attributes - Are they too simple?

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70 posts found
  bcbully

Elite Member

Joined: 3/03/12
Posts: 7644

 
OP  8/07/12 3:46:30 PM#41
Originally posted by Derpybird
Originally posted by bcbully
Originally posted by sammyeli
Originally posted by The_Korrigan
Originally posted by Derpybird
Originally posted by Sixpax

So "enemy evade chance" is a character stats/attribute?

Also, the OP left out a few stats/attributes in GW2 like Armor Rating, Health, and Critical chance.

And the entire trait system.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Trait

Yet another thread created by someone who has not played the game at all, taking about features he does not fully understand, to conclude that it is "too simple." How novel.

It just appears that posting game bashing misinformation on the GW2 forums seems to be more fun than playing TSW, or even just participating in improving the TSW community of this site. When someone plays TSW and pretends enjoying it, and 90% of his latests posts are on the GW2 forum bashing the game... then there's something wrong somewhere.

Well atleast we haven't seen MMOExposed lately =P

17 days /played over the last month, forgive me if I take a break...  I enjoy discussing mmos. 

dis·cus·sion

n.

1. Consideration of a subject by a group; an earnest conversation.

I'm not sure that this is the word you're looking for.

Why do you think I'm responding to you then? That's why we all are here. You left out #2 btw.

 

dis·cus·sion  (d-skshn)

n.

1. Consideration of a subject by a group; an earnest conversation.

 

2. A formal discourse on a topic; an exposition.

 
  Zooce

Novice Member

Joined: 1/24/11
Posts: 589

8/07/12 4:07:40 PM#42
Originally posted by bcbully

 

Primary stats

With only four it's pretty simple to see what will give you the most dmg, and what will improve survivability. No theory crafting needed here.No learning necessary.  Do these stats even change from item to item, or are they based soley on level? I assume they vary, but I do not know. 

I really wish you would've snuck into the final beta weekend somehow so you would know just a little firsthand information.  The stat system is not needlessly complex, just for the sake of appearing "deep".  The depth comes from which traits you choose, and that is directly tied into what stats you end up with from your build.  Gear provides various stat bonuses, but balanced amount.  The best example I can give you is to play around with this build planner.  After choosing a profession icon, you can click the three boxes on the right side above the stat window and view some of the various types of items and how they can give you lots of one stat and moderate amounts of a couple others, or maybe a little bit of every stat.  The amount provided would be relative to character level.

 

Originally posted by bcbully

 I honestly believe that stat simplification was one of the things that hurt WoW and one of the factor in swtors lack of staying power. The more people have to tinker with the longer they stay enganged.

I know some will disagree with me and that's well within their right. If the stats and attributes are or not is purley opinion and completely based on the player. I do think it is a fair question to ask with respect to the recent trend of streamlining and simplification of the genre that has left theory crafters wanting.

Look more at the major traits for theory crafting, that is where the planning is important as it will govern which weapons your character wields most effectively.
  Kuppa

Novice Member

Joined: 9/24/10
Posts: 3443

The problem with censorship is ********

8/07/12 4:14:00 PM#43
You are also forgetting Traits. Were you essentially pick 14 passives besides the inate increase in select attributes.


  BadSpock

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/21/04
Posts: 7769

Logic be damned!

8/07/12 4:18:48 PM#44
Originally posted by Kuppa
You are also forgetting Traits. Were you essentially pick 14 passives.

10 stats to balance for each profession, all of them useful and desired depending on build.

Build dictates what traits and passives, build dictates choice of 1 Heal 3 Utility and Elite.

Traits also increase 10 stats (primary/secondary).

Weapon selection determines everything.

Gear on top of that, runes/sigils + rings/trinket/necklace/accessory.

Yep, so very simple OP.

 

Now Playing: Destiny, WoW

  bcbully

Elite Member

Joined: 3/03/12
Posts: 7644

 
OP  8/07/12 4:25:37 PM#45
delete answerd my own question.
  rygard49

Novice Member

Joined: 3/22/11
Posts: 988

8/07/12 4:38:13 PM#46

I gotta say... The more these negative threads pop up, the more info, obscure and otherwise, I get to read without really having to search it out, and the more I want to play the game after reading said info.

So... keep it up? :)

  jondifool

Novice Member

Joined: 6/04/07
Posts: 1122

8/07/12 4:39:13 PM#47

OP ask if stats and Attributes are too simple ?

First we have to establish that the we have seen several iterations of stats during development, and it have ended with 4 main stats that all proffesions can use. No redundant stats, no ranged stats that do nothing for a mellee setup. No physical stat that doesn't work for a  magic user and so on.

Any combination of the 4 main stats will do something good for your proffesion. Thats simple, but is it too simple?

Now OP speculates that with only 4 main stats its easy to figure out what gives you most damage and what increase your surviability. And OP goes on saying that no theorycrafting is needed and no learning necesserry. That is a theorycrafting statement and it could be right in theory if it wasn't because it doesn't take into account what stats and attributes are part off.

The main thing here to understand is that stats is part of a build and the main defining factor of a build is the 2 weapon sets. But the 5 other skills can take a proffesion in many different direction. Adding in traits and it get insane how many builds there are.

So stats and attributes is part of builds and builds is nothing but complicated. And requires a lot of work to learn and master.

And as part of changing builds stats and attributes is meant to be altered aswell.

Changing stats and attributes is not only made easy in sPvP, its also made simple with the use of amulets that means that you really don't have to change all your armor every time you want to change your build. That makes it easy to try out  changes and see how they do with different stat combinations.

The point is changing one weapon, or just one skill could just aswell gives you reason to change stats. Your damage, control and support change and with that the build might benefit from changing stats aswell.

But mostly that experience will come from praxsis and not from theorycrafting, but learning by playing

Nothing simple in that.

 

 

 

 

read how to create a succesfull mmo before posting about GW2. And read tao of ArenaNet before talking about innovation in GW2

  Freyas

Novice Member

Joined: 3/16/11
Posts: 32

8/07/12 4:41:45 PM#48
Originally posted by bcbully
Originally posted by Alot

May I ask which/how many stats/attributes The Secret World has got?

 

 

Offensive Stats

Combat Power

Attack Rating

Weapon Power

Critical Rating

Critical Chance

Crit Power Rating

Crit Power

Hit Rating

Enemy Evade Chance

Penatration Rating

 

Defensive Stats

Evade Rating

Evade Chance

Physical Protection

Magical Protection

Defence Rating

Enemy Crit Rating

Block Rating

 

Healing Stats

Healing Power

Healing Rating

Weapon Power

Critical Rating

Critical Chance

Crit Power Rating

Crit Power

 

So, Weapon Power, Critical Rating, Critical Chance, Crit Power Rating, and Crit Power are counted twice because they're both offensive and healing stats?  Not to mention, what's the difference between Critical Rating and Critical chance, or between Crit Power Rating and Crit Power?  Half of the stats you list seem to be duplicates because you're listing the "rating" stat separate from the actual stat, when all that the "rating" stat does is give you some amount of the real stat.

Outside of the basic stats (power, crit, defense), about all that's left in your list is stats to modify your invisible chance to hit with or be hit by attacks, which GW doesn't have because there's no random die roll determining if an attack hits, but rather they always hit if you're in the hit area of the skill and never hit if you're not.

I'm not certain if you're trying to intimate that TSW has a more in-depth stat system with more interesting/meaningful choices than GW2, but from the two lists that you posted here, GW2 seems to have a significantly more complex yet easier to understand stat system.  I haven't played TSW enough to have an in-depth knowledge of the game, and it may have a great stat system, but if so, you're not selling it well.

 

  Redemp

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/30/05
Posts: 1058

If I didn't respond to you, chances are you're a idiot.

8/07/12 4:43:27 PM#49

 I see this thread didn't turn out the way which was intended. I have yet to find anything in Guild Wars 2 which is simple , on the surface a few systems seem to be though. Stats  are one of the systems which I found truly daunting when I first jumped in ... they are still dauting when building characters out.

 

  Kuppa

Novice Member

Joined: 9/24/10
Posts: 3443

The problem with censorship is ********

8/07/12 4:44:17 PM#50
Originally posted by rygard49

I gotta say... The more these negative threads pop up, the more info, obscure and otherwise, I get to read without really having to search it out, and the more I want to play the game after reading said info.

So... keep it up? :)

It is good, the more post we get like this one were there is misinformation the more information gets out.


  MattVid

Novice Member

Joined: 5/19/04
Posts: 409

8/07/12 4:46:32 PM#51

If this is really turning into some TSW/GW2 war, I will throw in my 2 cents.

 

In TSW. I basically just picked what I wanted to be. Tank, DPS or Healer. From then on, you basically just stacked items with 3-4 stats. Like I said before. Most games with this trinity system forces people down a certain path choice. If you are going to tank, you are going to take more defensive stats. If you are going to heal, more healing stats. Therefore, 70% of the stats in the game are pointless for your character.

 

I did not feel overwhelmed with stats in TSW. I did feel somewhat overwhelmed with all the skills choices though. I guess the deck system helps with this, but personally, I think the customization is a little too loaded up in the skill tree. Also, there seems like a lack of overall specialization in the game ... especially if you can just swap everything on the fly by changing out skills and gear. It seems a little too open ended, IMO.

 

GW2 is also pretty overwhelming at times. When I jumped into SPvP on a new character, and had all my skills unlocked and 100's of pieces of gear to look at ... I just choose to not bother and go with the default. However, as I leveled up, I felt that the game introduced you to customization very well. It isn't even until level 30 that you get your last skill unlocked. Traits also stay pretty simple and just less to look at  due to the tiering system. It feels more like drinking out of a straw, rather than a fire hose.

 

In GW2, you also kind of pick a role, however, they are most definitely less defined. On my one character I got to level 34 in the BWE, I chose a more support/control focused build. At the same time though, I always felt I could change my role by simply changing weapons. I might not be spec'd perfectly, but it still works sort of. My guess, is these roles will be more defined as people level up and push stats in one directoin or another. I wlil be interested to see how it all plays out.

 

Overall though, there are many choices to make in both games. For me, I just had more fun in GW2 than TSW. It is also far less glitchy and buggy. I don't think the skills, stats or specialization systems in either game are necessarily bad, or a reason I would say not to play them. And I definitely don't think either of them seem "oversimplified".

  gestalt11

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/17/06
Posts: 6187

8/07/12 4:47:16 PM#52

When you consider all the traits and such you wind up with a pretty big list really.  Just try building out something for sPvP.

 

Its just low on personal stats like Strength or intelligence.  When comes to things you can increase via traits and equipments + procs it turns out to be pretty big.

 

Not as complex as a City of Heroes invention build, but no game is really that complex when it comes to builds.

  Kuppa

Novice Member

Joined: 9/24/10
Posts: 3443

The problem with censorship is ********

8/07/12 4:49:59 PM#53
Originally posted by MattVid

If this is really turning into some TSW/GW2 war, I will throw in my 2 cents.

 

In TSW. I basically just picked what I wanted to be. Tank, DPS or Healer. From then on, you basically just stacked items with 3-4 stats. Like I said before. Most games with this trinity system forces people down a certain path choice. If you are going to tank, you are going to take more defensive stats. If you are going to heal, more healing stats. Therefore, 70% of the stats in the game are pointless for your character.

 

I did not feel overwhelmed with stats in TSW. I did feel somewhat overwhelmed with all the skills choices though. I guess the deck system helps with this, but personally, I think the customization is a little too loaded up in the skill tree. Also, there seems like a lack of overall specialization in the game ... especially if you can just swap everything on the fly by changing out skills and gear. It seems a little too open ended, IMO.

 

GW2 is also pretty overwhelming at times. When I jumped into SPvP on a new character, and had all my skills unlocked and 100's of pieces of gear to look at ... I just choose to not bother and go with the default. However, as I leveled up, I felt that the game introduced you to customization very well. It isn't even until level 30 that you get your last skill unlocked. Traits also stay pretty simple and just less to look at  due to the tiering system. It feels more like drinking out of a straw, rather than a fire hose.

 

In GW2, you also kind of pick a role, however, they are most definitely less defined. On my one character I got to level 34 in the BWE, I chose a more support/control focused build. At the same time though, I always felt I could change my role by simply changing weapons. I might not be spec'd perfectly, but it still works sort of. My guess, is these roles will be more defined as people level up and push stats in one directoin or another. I wlil be interested to see how it all plays out.

 

Overall though, there are many choices to make in both games. For me, I just had more fun in GW2 than TSW. It is also far less glitchy and buggy. I don't think the skills, stats or specialization systems in either game are necessarily bad, or a reason I would say not to play them. And I definitely don't think either of them seem "oversimplified".

Good read


  gestalt11

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/17/06
Posts: 6187

8/07/12 4:51:09 PM#54

As for the whole TSW thing.  They are roughly similar in actual number of stats.  Both have things like toughness.  Both have crit chance and crit power.

Both have heal increasing stats.  They are actually quite close.  Only thing TSW has is a dodge/block/glance chance.  GW2 has no passive avoidance, only acive dodge and skills that cause small duration blocks.  But I prefer GW2s design choice for that.

 

 

  Bad.dog

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/20/10
Posts: 1155

8/07/12 4:55:27 PM#55
Originally posted by bcbully
Originally posted by Alot

May I ask which/how many stats/attributes The Secret World has got?

 

 

Offensive Stats

Combat Power

Attack Rating

Weapon Power

Critical Rating

Critical Chance

Crit Power Rating

Crit Power

Hit Rating

Enemy Evade Chance

Penatration Rating

 

Defensive Stats

Evade Rating

Evade Chance

Physical Protection

Magical Protection

Defence Rating

Enemy Crit Rating

Block Rating

 

Healing Stats

Healing Power

Healing Rating

Weapon Power

Critical Rating

Critical Chance

Crit Power Rating

Crit Power

 

With all these stats and attributes ...Why does combat in TSW suck so bad?

  Outis

Novice Member

Joined: 9/07/07
Posts: 101

8/07/12 4:55:49 PM#56
Originally posted by SwissToni
I'm chuckling as I'm casting my mind back to Shadowbane...now that game HAD stats!

Ah the days of Shadowbane, its sad they could not secure the servers better and fix the exploits/hacks. Some of the best PvP I have ever had was then. It was all about playstyle and less about LvL/Gear.

  bcbully

Elite Member

Joined: 3/03/12
Posts: 7644

 
OP  8/07/12 4:56:34 PM#57
Originally posted by MattVid

If this is really turning into some TSW/GW2 war, I will throw in my 2 cents.

 

In TSW. I basically just picked what I wanted to be. Tank, DPS or Healer. From then on, you basically just stacked items with 3-4 stats. Like I said before. Most games with this trinity system forces people down a certain path choice. If you are going to tank, you are going to take more defensive stats. If you are going to heal, more healing stats. Therefore, 70% of the stats in the game are pointless for your character.

 

 

For pve you are correct, but for pvp there are so many hybrids running around, all the stats matter.

 

For example I made a Spriest type build. I needed damage, healing, and HP. I geared for HP and dmg. I decided to use passive on hit heals for the healing.  I even used protection glyphs lol.

 

  gestalt11

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/17/06
Posts: 6187

8/07/12 4:58:21 PM#58
Originally posted by MattVid

If this is really turning into some TSW/GW2 war, I will throw in my 2 cents.

 

In TSW. I basically just picked what I wanted to be. Tank, DPS or Healer. From then on, you basically just stacked items with 3-4 stats. Like I said before. Most games with this trinity system forces people down a certain path choice. If you are going to tank, you are going to take more defensive stats. If you are going to heal, more healing stats. Therefore, 70% of the stats in the game are pointless for your character.

 

I did not feel overwhelmed with stats in TSW. I did feel somewhat overwhelmed with all the skills choices though. I guess the deck system helps with this, but personally, I think the customization is a little too loaded up in the skill tree. Also, there seems like a lack of overall specialization in the game ... especially if you can just swap everything on the fly by changing out skills and gear. It seems a little too open ended, IMO.

 

GW2 is also pretty overwhelming at times. When I jumped into SPvP on a new character, and had all my skills unlocked and 100's of pieces of gear to look at ... I just choose to not bother and go with the default. However, as I leveled up, I felt that the game introduced you to customization very well. It isn't even until level 30 that you get your last skill unlocked. Traits also stay pretty simple and just less to look at  due to the tiering system. It feels more like drinking out of a straw, rather than a fire hose.

 

In GW2, you also kind of pick a role, however, they are most definitely less defined. On my one character I got to level 34 in the BWE, I chose a more support/control focused build. At the same time though, I always felt I could change my role by simply changing weapons. I might not be spec'd perfectly, but it still works sort of. My guess, is these roles will be more defined as people level up and push stats in one directoin or another. I wlil be interested to see how it all plays out.

 

Overall though, there are many choices to make in both games. For me, I just had more fun in GW2 than TSW. It is also far less glitchy and buggy. I don't think the skills, stats or specialization systems in either game are necessarily bad, or a reason I would say not to play them. And I definitely don't think either of them seem "oversimplified".

I find TSW neither hard nor overhwleming.  But of course I like to analyze and create RPG builds.  I did need to put a good amount of work into analyzing the skill wheel and trying things out.  A good couple hours of thinking about things.  Which is fine because I like that.  But that is all I needed to do really.  Once that was done game was cruise control other than figuring out the quest

But harder than GW2?  Hardly.  GW2 classes are, in total, easily more complex and far harder to figure out without actually playing.

In TSW I can tell exactly how a build will play without even playing in.  GW2 getting the feel for a new build even in a class you have played a good bit takes time and effort.

 

The build themselves are far more involved to create, you have just as many stats, but you also have abilties that are simply far far more rich than the active skills in TSW which are basically dirt simple other than some condition they may do.  And how your stats will interact with your playstyle as you attempt to play the build is not always immediately apparent.

In the end TSW is still a pretty simple equation of damage out versus healing.  The only time that gets switched up is versus nightmare mobs where you must then create a specific build to use the correct conditions.  But once you swap in the right build it becomes quite simple again.

  Kuppa

Novice Member

Joined: 9/24/10
Posts: 3443

The problem with censorship is ********

8/07/12 5:00:22 PM#59
Originally posted by bcbully
Originally posted by MattVid

If this is really turning into some TSW/GW2 war, I will throw in my 2 cents.

 

In TSW. I basically just picked what I wanted to be. Tank, DPS or Healer. From then on, you basically just stacked items with 3-4 stats. Like I said before. Most games with this trinity system forces people down a certain path choice. If you are going to tank, you are going to take more defensive stats. If you are going to heal, more healing stats. Therefore, 70% of the stats in the game are pointless for your character.

 

 

For pve you are correct, but for pvp there are so many hybrids running around, all the stats matter.

 

For example I made a Spriest type build. I needed damage, healing, and HP. I geared for HP and dmg. I decided to use passive on hit heals for the healing.  I even used protection glyphs lol.

 

Unfortunately this would probably fail when going against min/max players. Its not a TSW thing though its in all things in general. In other words its ineffective against players who know what they are doing. I think you could agree with that.


  bcbully

Elite Member

Joined: 3/03/12
Posts: 7644

 
OP  8/07/12 5:00:23 PM#60
Originally posted by gestalt11

As for the whole TSW thing.  They are roughly similar in actual number of stats.  Both have things like toughness.  Both have crit chance and crit power.

Both have heal increasing stats.  They are actually quite close.  Only thing TSW has is a dodge/block/glance chance.  GW2 has no passive avoidance, only acive dodge and skills that cause small duration blocks.  But I prefer GW2s design choice for that.

 

 

The two games are similar in more than a few features.

 

For the orange, along with dodge/block/glance/evade/defense there are also the competing offensive stats.

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