Now I am going to use wow as an example.

The open world  pvp sucks because they try to make the talent trees both pve and pvp.

If they seperated them, made them completely different. I.E 3 pve trees, 3 PVP trees. You could make the talents spacific. When they are mixed togather they need to balance them for both which puts one side bitching about they other so the end up ruining both.

They need 6 trees in total 3/3, and a way to switch them on the fly (with no Skill cooldowns once switched.)  And add small amounts of PVP stats to all PVE gear so you are not sitting with 0% resiliance while questing.

Originally posted by Kiljaedenas

What's wrong with this? Why shouldn't someone who's spent a lot of time practising PvP be better than someone who hasn't? That's usually the way it works in any PvP game. If for example I went and played a couple of rounds of Counterstrike I'd fully expect someone who plays a couple of hours a day to kick my ass up down and sideways compared to me who plays at most once a week (and often not even that). It's simple, raw fact; if you spend a lot of time doing something you get good at it. So of course time invested = skill.

Right.

The difference in whether PVP mechanics are acceptable largely revolves around whether time investment is formalized in a game rule (spend time playing to level up and gain a quantifiable advantage before the battle begins) or not.

Almost nobody objects to PVP which is really about player skill, but most people -- at least subconsciously -- see through the casual shallowness of PVP which revolves around things like playing longer.

Originally posted by DrunkWolf

6. the playerbase has become so carebear that games cater to them now, and most pvp is just 10v10 mini games.

7. tab target heat seeking arrows and magic that allways hits has taken away skill in pvp.

8. so much CC and stealth in games that players need it now like a crutch in pvp.

So your ideal PvP scenario is a blob of people bunny hopping and zig zagging as they spam their own attacks as much as possible so they hit something. 

Originally posted by Truelevel

Originally posted by Kiljaedenas

Originally posted by Lienhart

Actually, you're all wrong.

Most MMO PvP are usually

Time invested == Skill

That is the reason why MMO PvP is shit. Compare this to other genres that have PvP, it suddenly becomes

Effective Time Invested == Skill

However, MMOs are created to take the OCD in us and slam it till we break.

What's wrong with this? Why shouldn't someone who's spent a lot of time practising PvP be better than someone who hasn't? That's usually the way it works in any PvP game. If for example I went and played a couple of rounds of Counterstrike I'd fully expect someone who plays a couple of hours a day to kick my ass up down and sideways compared to me who plays at most once a week (and often not even that). It's simple, raw fact; if you spend a lot of time doing something you get good at it. So of course time invested = skill.

I believe what Lienhart is talking about is the accumulated advantage "over time" regardless of skill.

Take 2 players... Player A and Player B are just starting out in a new MMO

Player A, usually has 3 hours a day to play.. hand-eye cordination isnt good but he makes up for it with experience.

Player B, has only about 2 hours to play sporadically throughout the week.. he has great hand-eye cord and reflexes.

After a span of 2 months player A and B meet up in battle and player A kills player B due to the equipment he obtained through raiding (which of course everybody knows raids are time consuming). Using your counterstrike example player A wouldnt last a week against player B because... [skill/talent > Weapons/experience]

Ah, yes, now I see, the classic "more time spent = better gear and stats = lower level characters can't hit them worth crap even if they sit still" argument. Very true, and far too many MMOs have that. That's another reason why I like Eve so much; even the dinky little tech 1 frigates can be very deadly to larger ships if used properly. Hell, I've seen groups of players fleet up in nothing but the free rookie frigates (the weakest damn ships you can find in Eve) and successfully kill veterans in battleships in them (if you're interested in seeing this, look up Eve Noobswarm in Youtube).

PvP sucks in most MMOs because its a tacked on gear and rep grind as opposed to a true feature of the MMO itself.

For an example you can refer to: every MMO made since DAOC*   

*with a few notable exceptions ofc

Originally posted by Palladin

1. It is forced on all players in the open world I.E. Darkfall, Vanguard, Shadowbane

2. PvP specific gear

3. PvP specific gear for event pvp such as BGs and arena.

4. gear from 2 and 3 used in open world pvp.

5. Movement during combat is to fast and furious it should be reduced by 50%

 

IT'S MY OPINION:

BGs and Arenas are fine if the gear rewards only work in those events but should never be allowed in open world.

PvP should never be forced on anyone unless they "chose" to engage.

I see no reason for pvp specific gear

Allmost couldnt disagree with you more, only point i agree too is 2/3, ie. pvp specific gear.

I wholehartedly dislike games where pvp is reduced to being a meta game, ie. only being possible in BGs type instances+ eventually one static zone.

Open world pvp is what makes a good game great in my book, and the lack of it makes me pass on titles these days,,, I wanna gank and be ganked!!

Originally posted by Insane666

Originally posted by Palladin

1. It is forced on all players in the open world I.E. Darkfall, Vanguard, Shadowbane

2. PvP specific gear

3. PvP specific gear for event pvp such as BGs and arena.

4. gear from 2 and 3 used in open world pvp.

5. Movement during combat is to fast and furious it should be reduced by 50%

 

IT'S MY OPINION:

BGs and Arenas are fine if the gear rewards only work in those events but should never be allowed in open world.

PvP should never be forced on anyone unless they "chose" to engage.

I see no reason for pvp specific gear

Allmost couldnt disagree with you more, only point i agree too is 2/3, ie. pvp specific gear.

I wholehartedly dislike games where pvp is reduced to being a meta game, ie. only being possible in BGs type instances+ eventually one static zone.

 

Open world pvp is what makes a good game great in my book, and the lack of it makes me pass on titles these days,,, I wanna gank and be ganked!!

Ganking and being Ganked is a bad word around these parts and often associated with "high levels" focus firing "low levels" in the starter area.... taking all thier stuff.. tea bagging and whatever else you can fit into the open world PvP stereotypes

Originally posted by Lucioon

Originally posted by Asuran24

Originally posted by L0C0Man

Originally posted by Palladin

Originally posted by L0C0Man

PvP sucks in most games, IMHO, because developers are trying to fuse two completely different and in many way opposites playing styles (PvP and PvE) and forcing them to work together, and adjusting something to work in PvE might break it in PvP and the other way around.

IMHO there are two kind of games that really got it right, one is the EVE style where the whole game is centered around the idea that the enemies are the players, and no real attempt is made on PvE balancing, and the other is the GW1/GW2 style, where PvE and PvP are completely separated, and even skills work differently when entering PvP areas, so adjusting them for PvE doesn't break PvP, and the other way around.

I completly disagree I think pvp and pve can exist in one game... I think GW2 has it right.

That was my point, GW2 has it right because while it does  have PvP and PvE, they're completely segregated from each other. You can't PvP on PvE areas, and while there are a couple of PvE encounters in WvW, once you enter in PvP areas is balanced towards PvP with some skills behaving differently, health (and armor and skills in sPvP) normalization and the like.

I actually would say that a pvp and pve set up in a mmo world would work without seperating it into two different parts of the world. I mean for forced open world pvp if you  actually make ganking, griefing,a nd such have a increasing negative effect on the person doing it, than you very well could curb the amount of such activities happening by increasing the chances of them being punished or the sevarity of the punishement they are dealing with. Such as making them have a chance to have bands of npcs coming out into the game world to hunt them (offline or online), having random players getting questss or requests to kill the player for a reward (gold, loot, titles, and such). Also having the system actually detect if a player is a mob or player-character, and then having each ability having a seperate effect based on which you are hitting, that way you can just effect one side of the abiliies by targeting pvp or pve side of the ability. I mean in wow some abilties do just that their effect changes based on if you hit a mob or character, and so i am sure you could take that further that all aspects fo the abilites could have a pvp an pve setting.

PVP and PVE can never coexist within one realm, its very simple, Certain Class will be better than others in doing the same thing. That is to create variety, but it only works for PVE, therefore there is no balance between classes.

So unless everyone is okay with being classless and everyone can choose to become whatever they want, then no PVP will ever work with PVE.

Oh yes they can co-exist in a single realm, so long as you make it that each ability of each class has a pvp-combat value, and a pve-combat value that can be adjusted without worrying about it affecting their proformance n the other aspect of the game. Balance does not mean that every class proforms the exact same, but that all clases have a chance of winning that is not drastically higher or lower then the other. You have have classes that will have slightly higher then normal chances of beating other classes, as then they will normally have a slightly lower  chance of beating other classes as well, and that is well balance by the very fact of no one is going to be completely better across the board. Yet the issue is that most games use one set of values for abilies, which is based on pve making it that if you change that value to accomadate pvp or pve it will unbalance the other. Yet if you used a dual value system that would change the facts of balancing the game as you now have two sets of values that do not actually effect the other if you change one.

What i mean is that each ability has values set for both pve target (ie mobs/npcs.), and values for pvp targets (players.) which are independent of each other when making changes to one of the value sets. Like making a fireball deal 300-600 damage to a mob yet 150-300 damage to players, or having a stun that incapasates a mob for 15 second yet for players that would only be 5 or 6 seconds. The issue most games have is that one set of values are affecting two playstyles, where it should be one set of values for each, that way the two sets of values exist in the same realm yet influence difference aspects fo the realm without interfering with each other.

Originally posted by Grixxitt

PvP sucks in most MMOs because its a tacked on gear and rep grind as opposed to a true feature of the MMO itself.

For an example you can refer to: every MMO made since DAOC*   

*with a few notable exceptions ofc

This is the bigest issue is that the game is built as only either a pve, or a pvp based game, and then adjusted via one set of values in an attept to balance aspects of  the game where clases/abilities are under/over-performing in the game (ala tacked on content that the game was not actually built to excell in.). They use thigns like pvp-exclusive stats, or pvp-only gear to combat it yet when things in one or the other aspect get unbalanced they have  to fiddle with the values, and so they very likely will unbalance the other aspect of the game by doing so.

PvP sucks in MMO's because it can't really be balanced unless they take the route of GW (areana setting, limited skills/stats, same gear, same level, etc).

Otherwise there will be too many different builds and items and no control over the amount of enemies your facing. Basically to have fun in MMO PvP you have to accept it will never be 100% balanced and in some situations you will just die due to things other than lack of skill.

Originally posted by Lucioon

When you have specific roles for each class, then PVP won't work in that game.

Because how can you balance an Healer vs DPS, or an Tank vs Healer, in a game with Roles, those Roles works together against an NPC. But when you turn those roles against eachother, then those roles becomes an Hinderance.

Thats why Trinity will never work in an PVP setting, it will be too hard trying to balance the Trinity against each other when you are trying to separate them from eachother for PVE.

 

What the hell are u talking about ??

Why would you want to balance Trinity in PVP ????

Trinity is the best thing there is in a PvP.

Originally posted by Insane666

Originally posted by Palladin

1. It is forced on all players in the open world I.E. Darkfall, Vanguard, Shadowbane

2. PvP specific gear

3. PvP specific gear for event pvp such as BGs and arena.

4. gear from 2 and 3 used in open world pvp.

5. Movement during combat is to fast and furious it should be reduced by 50%

 

IT'S MY OPINION:

BGs and Arenas are fine if the gear rewards only work in those events but should never be allowed in open world.

PvP should never be forced on anyone unless they "chose" to engage.

I see no reason for pvp specific gear

Allmost couldnt disagree with you more, only point i agree too is 2/3, ie. pvp specific gear.

I wholehartedly dislike games where pvp is reduced to being a meta game, ie. only being possible in BGs type instances+ eventually one static zone.

 

Open world pvp is what makes a good game great in my book, and the lack of it makes me pass on titles these days,,, I wanna gank and be ganked!!

Exactly. MMO's with no Open world PvP are FAKE and boring.

Its like walking outside in the dark when a stranger with a gun comes your way.

In a fake and boring MMO he would just walked past you.

In a real MMO like WoW an Epic fight would have occurred. EXCITING.

Originally posted by gasperk

Originally posted by Lucioon

When you have specific roles for each class, then PVP won't work in that game.

Because how can you balance an Healer vs DPS, or an Tank vs Healer, in a game with Roles, those Roles works together against an NPC. But when you turn those roles against eachother, then those roles becomes an Hinderance.

Thats why Trinity will never work in an PVP setting, it will be too hard trying to balance the Trinity against each other when you are trying to separate them from eachother for PVE.

 

What the hell are u talking about ??

Why would you want to balance Trinity in PVP ????

Trinity is the best thing there is in a PvP.

Yeah i got to agree with you reallyhere, having clases that use specific sets of abilities that can be made to synergize an work off each other is great for pvp. The issue I see as i have said before is that most mmo pvp combat is based around using pve-values for the pvp, but then adjusting that value to balance pvp which imbalnces the pve side of the game causing a cycle of blancing changes between each side. If you create the game around having one set of values for abilities that is for pvp combat, and then one set for pve combat you can balance each class for both pvp combat an pve combat without either balancing attempt effecting the other. Then also having gear that is tailred towards pve or pvp combat without it actually having stats that are solely for pve or pvp helps further as each part of the combat is independent of each other.

Originally posted by gasperk

Originally posted by Lucioon

When you have specific roles for each class, then PVP won't work in that game.

Because how can you balance an Healer vs DPS, or an Tank vs Healer, in a game with Roles, those Roles works together against an NPC. But when you turn those roles against eachother, then those roles becomes an Hinderance.

Thats why Trinity will never work in an PVP setting, it will be too hard trying to balance the Trinity against each other when you are trying to separate them from eachother for PVE. 

What the hell are u talking about ??

Why would you want to balance Trinity in PVP ????

Trinity is the best thing there is in a PvP.

Agreed.  Role-based teamplay is the best part of PVP.

Top 5 PvP Design Flaws

Originally posted by Asuran24

Originally posted by gasperk

Originally posted by Lucioon

When you have specific roles for each class, then PVP won't work in that game.

Because how can you balance an Healer vs DPS, or an Tank vs Healer, in a game with Roles, those Roles works together against an NPC. But when you turn those roles against eachother, then those roles becomes an Hinderance.

Thats why Trinity will never work in an PVP setting, it will be too hard trying to balance the Trinity against each other when you are trying to separate them from eachother for PVE.

 

What the hell are u talking about ??

Why would you want to balance Trinity in PVP ????

Trinity is the best thing there is in a PvP.

Yeah i got to agree with you reallyhere, having clases that use specific sets of abilities that can be made to synergize an work off each other is great for pvp. The issue I see as i have said before is that most mmo pvp combat is based around using pve-values for the pvp, but then adjusting that value to balance pvp which imbalnces the pve side of the game causing a cycle of blancing changes between each side. If you create the game around having one set of values for abilities that is for pvp combat, and then one set for pve combat you can balance each class for both pvp combat an pve combat without either balancing attempt effecting the other. Then also having gear that is tailred towards pve or pvp combat without it actually having stats that are solely for pve or pvp helps further as each part of the combat is independent of each other.

Exactly. It adds depth to PVP and gameplay in MMO's. :)

Do you mean something like the system that was added in Guild Wars 1 ?

abilities were balanced differently for PVP and PVE.

Originally posted by gasperk

Originally posted by Asuran24

Originally posted by gasperk

Originally posted by Lucioon

When you have specific roles for each class, then PVP won't work in that game.

Because how can you balance an Healer vs DPS, or an Tank vs Healer, in a game with Roles, those Roles works together against an NPC. But when you turn those roles against eachother, then those roles becomes an Hinderance.

Thats why Trinity will never work in an PVP setting, it will be too hard trying to balance the Trinity against each other when you are trying to separate them from eachother for PVE.

 

What the hell are u talking about ??

Why would you want to balance Trinity in PVP ????

Trinity is the best thing there is in a PvP.

Yeah i got to agree with you reallyhere, having clases that use specific sets of abilities that can be made to synergize an work off each other is great for pvp. The issue I see as i have said before is that most mmo pvp combat is based around using pve-values for the pvp, but then adjusting that value to balance pvp which imbalnces the pve side of the game causing a cycle of blancing changes between each side. If you create the game around having one set of values for abilities that is for pvp combat, and then one set for pve combat you can balance each class for both pvp combat an pve combat without either balancing attempt effecting the other. Then also having gear that is tailred towards pve or pvp combat without it actually having stats that are solely for pve or pvp helps further as each part of the combat is independent of each other.

Exactly. It adds depth to PVP and gameplay in MMO's. :)

Do you mean something like the system that was added in Guild Wars 1 ?

abilities were balanced differently for PVP and PVE.

More like each ability had two different set of variables (ike damage, duration, and such.) for pve, and pvp based combat. This way a fireball could be balanced to deal one set of damage in pvp an another in pve combat, or a stun last five seconds in pvp an 12 seconds in pve, this way you actually have essially one versiion of the ability that is balanced for pvp an another for pve without worrying about either effecting the other. Since the values of each are serperate from each other, and since games already can distinguish between npcs an players switching the effect between the pvp an pve values to determine the effect could be handled as well. Been too long since i played gw1 so not sure, that is the best i can discribe it though. If you wish i can give it another try when i get back.

Originally posted by Palladin

1. It is forced on all players in the open world I.E. Darkfall, Vanguard, Shadowbane

2. PvP specific gear

3. PvP specific gear for event pvp such as BGs and arena.

4. gear from 2 and 3 used in open world pvp.

5. Movement during combat is to fast and furious it should be reduced by 50%

 

IT'S MY OPINION:

BGs and Arenas are fine if the gear rewards only work in those events but should never be allowed in open world.

PvP should never be forced on anyone unless they "chose" to engage.

I see no reason for pvp specific gear

One and only reason: LOOK IN THE MIRROR