Originally posted by Zooce

I enjoy reading the articles on this site as they are usually entertaining and provoke decent discussions.  I don't mind that the site I am visiting is mmorpg.COM and not mmorpg.ORG.  Being subjected to four advetisements on every page view, is not ideal- but I'm not paying a subscription or donating, so whatever pays the bills.  What I began to find absolutely revolting about the "official reviews" I am now starting to regard as responsible journalism.

 

It had reached the point where I was on the verge of creating a thread titled "Credibility, Integrity, Game Reviews, and Ad Revenues".  I had done some limited research on the subject, Reviewers vs. Advertisers, and Bad Reviews & Being Nice.  I remembered a poll asking the question "What is your favorite feature on MMORPG.com?", and the results made it clear without a doubt that the main attraction of this site for viewers are the Reviews (14180 participants voted).  That certainly was the case for myself when I first came here looking for a new game to play.

 

Interviews - 8.8%

Forums - 21.9%

Weekly Columnists - 7.3%

Reviews - 41.5%

Developer Journals - 5.1%

Event Coverage (ComicCon, GDC, AGC, E3 etc.) - 9.3%

Podcast - 6.1%

 

 

I hadn't been motivated to post in the forums here until reading the mmorpg.com "official review" of Darkfall, linked in the Aventurine official forums.  The game had its flaws- yet, it was palatable to the niche audience that had been seeking such an offering and enjoying the game for over 2 years.  I compared my in-game experiences to the review and realized the staff here write to the mainstream casual audience, as mainstream causual gamers (not experienced gamers writing for the eyes of other experienced gaming consumers).

 

In Sean Bulger's Darkfall review he mentions one of the cons as "little content".  Let that sink in for a minute, reaming a sandbox game for not being themepark enough.  A game that lasted me 2 years with one of the slowest developers at the helm has "little content" but here we are in 2012 and I read about the great longevity of TSW after reaching the end and growing sick of the grind after only two weeks.  This same author's review of Aion does not mention the word "grind" in the cons list (the main reason I quit that game at release).  Of course this was before Bill took the reins as ME- and the reviews since then have become more subjectively balanced, but still lack the objectivity I would expect from journalists being paid to examine a product.  

 

I encourage the staff of this site to analyze the mission statement from Consumer Reports, an organization providing reviews with the consumers best interests in mind.

 

"Consumer Reports (CR) is an expert, independent, nonprofit organization whose mission is to work for a fair, just, and safe marketplace for all consumers and to empower consumers to protect themselves. The organization was founded in 1936 when advertising first flooded the mass media. Consumers lacked a reliable source of information they could depend on to help them distinguish hype from fact and good products from bad ones. Since then CR has filled that vacuum with a broad range of consumer information. To maintain its independence and impartiality, CR accepts no outside advertising and no free samples and employs several hundred mystery shoppers and technical experts to buy and test the products it evaluates."

 

Rest assured, I am not suggesting this site adopt some radical new financial model in the hopes of appearing less biased.  Consumer Reports is supported by subscriptions and donations, while I enjoy the content of this site for free.  What I would like to see are more consistent, methodical and objective reviews that cause me to praise the writer's integrity instead of experienceing the revolting feeling I may be hearing about your findings through the language of salesmanship.

 

The rationalization I came to when thinking about starting that thread (and ultimately the reason I dropped the issue until reading through this thread) was embodied in a couple old cliches.  According to Voltiare, "with power comes responsibility".  Bacon tells us, "knowledge is power".  I looked at the most recent review which discusses the numerous bugs in TSW.  Suzie acknowledged them in a responsible manner in her written review.  The majority have been dealt with, and certainly anyone checking her review with the intention of trying the game for the first time would not be bothered by already-squashed bugs.

 

Yet, parts of the review strike me as purposefully short-sighted.  It's not like you guys are rocking the boat with cutting edge reviews here- at the point of publication you have the benefit of digesting nearly every other major and minor site's reviews in addition to knowing the average user-score here at mmorpg.com.  Feigning limited knowledge of the current abysmal end-game and resting on future potential allowed her to give the game a great forecast in the longevity department with what I assume to be a clear conscience.  At the time of publishing that review the majority of the playerbase was barely scratching the half-way point of the game's content.  They won't know any better for a few months, and by that time maybe Funcom will get the game into a sustainable subscription state.  I suppose either way she acted responsibly by giving the developer the benefit of the doubt, and not prematurely turning away potential customers.

 

One change I would like to see are more specific review categories.  Lumping PvE, PvP, and crafting into "Gameplay" for a score of 8.5 does not reflect the written word of great PvE, badly designed PvP and useless crafting (at least not to me).

I agree with this 100%. It is hard to review something that just came out but what I tend to look at is the "re-reviews" to see if the writers admit to bugs and features that aren't up to par or praise the game without acknowledging any of its problems.

Originally posted by FrodoFragins

Originally posted by iamflymolo

Two things.

In response to those who say that games go f2p only because they are doing badly and that p2p is always more profitable, I submit LotRO. At the time of its f2p conversion LotRO was one of the most well-respected games on the market and had a lot more subscribers than most of its competitors. It went f2p because Turbine believed that they had found a model that was more profitable than p2p and so they converted their flag-ship game. Whether or not they actually have been more profitable I have no idea.

LOTRO was quickly dying when they announced F2P.  They released a half ass expansion in SoM and were quickly losing susbcribers.  LOTRO was not going gangbusters when they went F2P.  They were on a major downward spiral due to Turbine cutting way back on content and updates.

"quickly dying" "quickly losing subscribers" "major downward spiral"

Source?

Originally posted by BillMurphy

Originally posted by travamars

I remember being banned soley because i pointed out the obvious flaws in DCUO after reading a sickening glowing review that avoided those issues.

I remember being banned soley because i pointed out the obvious flaws in SWTOR after reading a sickening glowing review that avoided those issues.

Why cant you let the forums be driven by opinion? I understand that you get paid to hype these games but do you really have to stop people from posting their OPINIONS?

Simply put, Trav? The forums are not my area of expertise. I run content. Mike runs moderation. And his word there is law. But if you have a question about why you were banned, I do know he'll gladly tell you.  Just shoot him a PM.

And no, we do NOT get paid hype games.  We get paid to present information and offer our opinions.  Sometimes that will stir hype, and other times it will deflate it. Any real hype that surrounds a game comes from not just our writing, but the entirety of the internet.  Journalists, pundits, and bloggers? We're not the only reason GW2 has a high hype score here. In fact, it was hovering at the near 9 mark before anyone played it or started reporting on it here.  Just a thought. 

And lastly? If we're excited about a game, of course we're going to tell you we are. I'm not going to "pretend" not to like something just so I don't "influence" you. We'll write as much detail about a game as we can, but we're also going to offer our opinions with it. It's just how it's done.

Aren't you the one who reviewed DCU when a friend of yours (community manager I think?) worked for soe on the game?

Originally posted by Ginaz

Originally posted by BillMurphy

Originally posted by travamars

I remember being banned soley because i pointed out the obvious flaws in DCUO after reading a sickening glowing review that avoided those issues.

I remember being banned soley because i pointed out the obvious flaws in SWTOR after reading a sickening glowing review that avoided those issues.

Why cant you let the forums be driven by opinion? I understand that you get paid to hype these games but do you really have to stop people from posting their OPINIONS?

Simply put, Trav? The forums are not my area of expertise. I run content. Mike runs moderation. And his word there is law. But if you have a question about why you were banned, I do know he'll gladly tell you.  Just shoot him a PM.

And no, we do NOT get paid hype games.  We get paid to present information and offer our opinions.  Sometimes that will stir hype, and other times it will deflate it. Any real hype that surrounds a game comes from not just our writing, but the entirety of the internet.  Journalists, pundits, and bloggers? We're not the only reason GW2 has a high hype score here. In fact, it was hovering at the near 9 mark before anyone played it or started reporting on it here.  Just a thought. 

And lastly? If we're excited about a game, of course we're going to tell you we are. I'm not going to "pretend" not to like something just so I don't "influence" you. We'll write as much detail about a game as we can, but we're also going to offer our opinions with it. It's just how it's done.

Aren't you the one who reviewed DCU when a friend of yours (community manager I think?) worked for soe on the game?

If Bill avoided reviewing games because someone he knew worked on it, he'd never get to review a damn thing.

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by Ginaz

Originally posted by BillMurphy

Originally posted by travamars

I remember being banned soley because i pointed out the obvious flaws in DCUO after reading a sickening glowing review that avoided those issues.

I remember being banned soley because i pointed out the obvious flaws in SWTOR after reading a sickening glowing review that avoided those issues.

Why cant you let the forums be driven by opinion? I understand that you get paid to hype these games but do you really have to stop people from posting their OPINIONS?

Simply put, Trav? The forums are not my area of expertise. I run content. Mike runs moderation. And his word there is law. But if you have a question about why you were banned, I do know he'll gladly tell you.  Just shoot him a PM.

And no, we do NOT get paid hype games.  We get paid to present information and offer our opinions.  Sometimes that will stir hype, and other times it will deflate it. Any real hype that surrounds a game comes from not just our writing, but the entirety of the internet.  Journalists, pundits, and bloggers? We're not the only reason GW2 has a high hype score here. In fact, it was hovering at the near 9 mark before anyone played it or started reporting on it here.  Just a thought. 

And lastly? If we're excited about a game, of course we're going to tell you we are. I'm not going to "pretend" not to like something just so I don't "influence" you. We'll write as much detail about a game as we can, but we're also going to offer our opinions with it. It's just how it's done.

Aren't you the one who reviewed DCU when a friend of yours (community manager I think?) worked for soe on the game?

If Bill avoided reviewing games because someone he knew worked on it, he'd never get to review a damn thing.

That's a good point. He probably knows a lot of people in the industry.

Tony "RadarX" Jones and I worked at TTH for a couple of years together. He went to work for SOE, and I came to work for MMORPG.com.  There are many folks from many sites who eventually stem off to game development or community management. Heck, Dana Massey (former ME here) and Jon Wood (who came before me) both no work in game development. 

But I see your thinly veiled point: "His friend worked on DCUO, that's why he gave it an 8." On the contrary, I gave it an 8 because I love the game. I'd probably rate it even higher now, though not by too much, as a F2P.

This site is supported by advertising revenue....*walks aways whistling* :P

In all seriousness I use these forums more for the discussions then the reviews/articles. The later is rarely balanced enough for my liking.

posting "you guys are being paid!" isn't really going to change anything.

you're going to get the same answer either way whether they are lying or not.  if they are keeping it a secret, calling them out on it isn't really all it takes to expose that secret.  this isn't some crappy movie about a nanny and her diaries where you're going to say "omg you're being untruthful" and everyone just goes "omg you're so right i'm going to change my whole life around now that you have said that and be a better person."

i'm not even arguing that is what is happening though, i see no proof of it and sans-proof i'll just take them at their word.  their word that their reviews are to be taken as the opinionated articles they appear to be in the first place. its not like they have made the claim that this is the most objective and infallible take on any game possible.

the way some of you suggest they are doing things would be a crappy way to run a review site and the fastest way to sink your credibility if it were ever exposed.  and i'm sure it would inevitably be exposed.

but not by some conspiracy theorist on the forums offering up nothing but "this site advertises so it must be paid reviews."  if thats all you got then you've only stated the obvious, drawn a wild conclusion, and not really much more.

Originally posted by travamars
and still waiting. Boy that must have been a hard question.

What is your question, I can't figure it out.

They told you why you've been banned, you apparently don't know how to properly criticize a game, (keep it civil) many others here on this site do and manage to not get banned while doing so.

Originally posted by BillMurphy

Tony "RadarX" Jones and I worked at TTH for a couple of years together. He went to work for SOE, and I came to work for MMORPG.com.  There are many folks from many sites who eventually stem off to game development or community management. Heck, Dana Massey (former ME here) and Jon Wood (who came before me) both no work in game development. 

But I see your thinly veiled point: "His friend worked on DCUO, that's why he gave it an 8." On the contrary, I gave it an 8 because I love the game. I'd probably rate it even higher now, though not by too much, as a F2P.

Its still not very professional to review an MMO that employs a friend of yours.  At the very least, you should have disclosed that fact somewhere in your review or, better yet, passed it off to someone else.  Something like this is why "gaming journalism" isn't taken seriously. 

Originally posted by BillMurphy

Tony "RadarX" Jones and I worked at TTH for a couple of years together. He went to work for SOE, and I came to work for MMORPG.com.  There are many folks from many sites who eventually stem off to game development or community management. Heck, Dana Massey (former ME here) and Jon Wood (who came before me) both no work in game development. 

But I see your thinly veiled point: "His friend worked on DCUO, that's why he gave it an 8." On the contrary, I gave it an 8 because I love the game. I'd probably rate it even higher now, though not by too much, as a F2P.

Bill can I ask a question?

Do you come from a MMORPG background? (I mean, have you ever been hooked for years to games such UO, EQ or WoW)

Reason I ask is because I start to think that MMORPG.com is not run by MMO fans as I always thought it was.

And I can see this reftected on the reviews you guys do on this site.

My main problems with your reviews (MMORPG.com) is that you treat MMOs games as if they were normal Single Player games, and review them as such

So if the game is istantly fun you gave it a 9 or an 8 without actually understanding what a MMO player is actually looking long term in a MMO.

The big difference between a MMO and a Single Player game in my view is Longevity, that's what sets the 2 markets apart.

But in your reviews it looks like you have a strange interpretation of Longevity, giving games such SWTOR or TSW an high rating in Longevity, makes me think you guys review the MMOs with a Single Player Game mindset.

In Single Player games: Longevity = 2 Months

In MMOs: Longevity = 2 years

I think you guys need to give Longevity more importance when reviewing MMOs, you need to ask yourself  "would a typical Player still play this game in 1 year - 2 years time?" but in order to understand that, you need to be a MMO nut with lots of experience in playing different types of MMOs (and in your site you have plenty to choose from)

You need to understand that MMO players want to invest time in a game, they do not want to play it for 2 months only.

Longevity should be the main factor when giving a MMO an high score, but you always fail to give it the right relevance.

If I can make a suggestion, you should recruit few experienced MMO player from your site and let them do your official reviews (Someone like Paragus for example), and Longevity should count as 50% of the total final score.

If you keep reviewing MMOs the same way of Single Player Games, you will lose credibility within the community, because MMO players are not simply looking for a quick fix but for a long term committment.

My 2 Cents.

Originally posted by Ginaz
Its still not very professional to review an MMO that employs a friend of yours.  At the very least, you should have disclosed that fact somewhere in your review or, better yet, passed it off to someone else.  Something like this is why "gaming journalism" isn't taken seriously. 

If I didn't write about any game where I had a friend employed, I'd never write anything. And I don't think my bosses would like that much. The truth is, working in this industry for years, you make friends. You see people bounce around games and companies like a ping-pong ball. My friendship with Tony in no way effected my review of DCUO. But I can't really prove that... so you'll just have to take my word for it.

Originally posted by ste2000

My 2 Cents.

 

 

Hey STE.

Yep, I've been playing MMOs since UO, first main addiction though was actually Asheron's Call 2 (yes the one that was infamously closed down). I'm most definitely an MMO gamer by default, a former hardcore raider, and now a time-limited hardcore MMO-er. By this I mean I wish I was independently wealthy so I could game the 60-70 hours a week I instead spend working.

In terms of longevity, I see your point. But here's how we tend to weight longevity scores, as reflected by the state of the industry as a whole. There was a time when just a few MMOs were out, competing for time. They were played for years, and toiled away at due to both the nature of the content and the fact that there was little other choice if you were an MMORPG fan. Now? That has changed. There are new AAA games every year, and each of them has something different to offer (though obviously some don't have much).

A game like Rift might very well be a re-hash of a lot of features from many theme-park games, but it's wide scope of content and frequent updates give it a very solid longevity for fans of theme-park games. Our recent TSW review by Suzie Ford highlights longevity with an eye to what the game offers: replayability, 500+ skills to obtain and the promise of monthly content updates that further the story. This is entirely different in "longevity" than what Rift offers.

I see your point about two years > two months. But I think, at least until something grand comes along, you won't see a two-year game for most players any time soon. The new reality is that a massive stable of MMORPGs means players can and will hop in and out of titles at their discretion. So what we have to do as reviewers is gauge the amount of content in a title at the time we review it, and determine if it's enough to stay around for over the course of a few months. We can't, and to my knowledge no one else can either, determine whether a game will last someone years. And I'd be willing to bet that most games simply won't. So while you might be looking for a game that takes that kind of commitment, it's not something that factors into our scores as much as yours.

Originally posted by Ginaz

Originally posted by BillMurphy

Tony "RadarX" Jones and I worked at TTH for a couple of years together. He went to work for SOE, and I came to work for MMORPG.com.  There are many folks from many sites who eventually stem off to game development or community management. Heck, Dana Massey (former ME here) and Jon Wood (who came before me) both no work in game development. 

But I see your thinly veiled point: "His friend worked on DCUO, that's why he gave it an 8." On the contrary, I gave it an 8 because I love the game. I'd probably rate it even higher now, though not by too much, as a F2P.

Its still not very professional to review an MMO that employs a friend of yours.  At the very least, you should have disclosed that fact somewhere in your review or, better yet, passed it off to someone else.  Something like this is why "gaming journalism" isn't taken seriously. 

I don't think that's really fair of you to say... What are people supposed to do? Not make any friends? I have a friend who writes poetry and I don't lie to him and say it's awesome if it's crap. I doubt Bill reviews something positively because his friend works in a certain company...

Thanks for taking some time to answer Bill.

I noticed you guys are making an effort to "bond" with the community which is always great, since this is a community driven site in the first place that should be normal (but it isn't always the case).

I understand where you coming from, and I get it is not easy to find the best way to review a game, I've been in a couple of gaming site boards and the main recurring discussion within the management team was always about which criteria to use to review the games, since the site members were never happy.

I know the fact that today the majority of MMOs are mediocre at best, but the fact that you guys low the bar so the games looks better than they are is not the right solution in order to fix the problem.

I understand that is not MMORPG.com duty to fix the MMO market, but to be honest one of the reason why I've been so loyal to this site is because I believe MMORPG.com is the home of all "core" MMO players (I said Core not Hardcore), and that includes the staff of this site who are supposed to be MMO lovers before being writers.

So I take for granted at times that Reviews should be less forgiving than in other sites.

Maybe I am a bit too demanding, but I feel that Publishers shouldn't really get away with murder so easily.

We all know that all the latest AAA MMOs have been huge disappointment, we all know what the reasons are (lack of innovation mainly) but yet we put up with it.

I believe that if we want the MMO industry to change, we should start reviewing mediocre MMOs for what they are.

MMOs with very little innovation and a short term appeal, should not get a 9.

For a simple reason.

Now you are complaining that this is the standard of MMOs today, but what happens when there will be something so innovative and addictive that will put in the shadows all those games which got a 9? Are you going off the scale and give it an 11?

I believe scores are way too generous for games that are not exactly the next big thing, you should reserve a 9 for something really special.

Regarding your comment on Longevity, my answer to you is ...........................World of Warcraft (and EvE)

Just to show that decent MMOs don't have a problem with Longevity, the problem is with the Industry that cannot make MMOs with a long term appeal, and should not be encouraged by by giving them generus scores.

That's all I am saying.

PS: On a positive note, since I am at it, I'd like to congratulate the staff on how you manage the Forums.

I believe this is the best Forum for gaming, so far MikeB and Co are doing a decent jobs (obviously with some ups and downs)

Everybody can say what they want as long as they don't offend each other, that's how a real Forum should work (That's how the Ancient Romans meant originally when they created it)

Please keep it this way, do not make the mistake of over-moderating the forums, that would be the end of it.

People like a bit of drama and this forum is full of it, there is lots of passion going on, and that's why I like it and that's why I believe this is the most popular MMO site.

Keep up with the good job.

You're so "young"

You've missed the "golden age" of MMORPG.com, now its just a place for angry teens and /b/ people

And now we are given, drum roll, pocket. Of course half the kids watch with only one hand on the keyboard,  I must admit to having a morbid curiosity as to what colour her hair currently is, but does anyone listen for her insightful perspective on MMOs? Really? Exactly! May as well just have Kayie dancing.

I remember Jon in a moment of candour admitting (when quizzed) ' why the disproportionate cover of DarkFall' he said  that controversy caused hits. With that in mind maybe you should get Mz P back on ToR, Mikes article a week or two ago caused activity.

I guess it is what it is, but ultimately I believe quality content is what is going to attract and hold users. I'm probably just naive.

Originally posted by Fusion

You're so "young"

You've missed the "golden age" of MMORPG.com, now its just a place for angry teens and /b/ people

I doubt that's true. There are plenty of adults on the forums. I'm one of them.

Originally posted by ste2000
[snip]

PS: On a positive note, since I am at it, I'd like to congratulate the staff on how you manage the Forums.

I believe this is the best Forum for gaming, so far MikeB and Co are doing a decent jobs (obviously with some ups and downs)

Everybody can say what they want as long as they don't offend each other, that's how a real Forum should work (That's how the Ancient Romans meant originally when they created it)

Please keep it this way, do not make the mistake of over-moderating the forums, that would be the end of it.

People like a bit of drama and this forum is full of it, there is lots of passion going on, and that's why I like it and that's why I believe this is the most popular MMO site.

Keep up with the good job.

Thanks for the kind words! I'll be sure to direct my team to this. :)