Originally posted by The_Korrigan

Originally posted by heartless

Originally posted by colddog04

Originally posted by heartless

Originally posted by bcbully

http://chronicle.thesecretworld.com/character/Chopsticks

 

I will accept you apology when you give it.  I will not respond to anything else about TSW. This is about GW2. 

 

Apology for what? You're obviously exaggerating.  First where does it say days played on that link?

Here is my character a few days before I stopped playing. This is at about 4 days /played. You know the command in the game? For some reason the Chronicle didn't update itself to my most current character level but whatever. You're trying to tell me that at 14 days /played, you only have 50% when I had 37% at 4 days /played?

Either you're doing something wrong, I'm doing something right or you go AFK for hours on end. Or maybe you're just exaggerating. Unless all you do is PvP, then I can sort of see how what you claim is possible.

He linked a picture that showed he has played 17 days 21 hours. Which means that he has played the game ~12 hours per day since release.

 

Here is the pic: http://s14.postimage.org/outsghvcv/Chopsticks_picture023.png

 

Obviously he is the exception to the rule. It looks like he has done a ton of PvPing according to his Chronicle. If he had been focusing on PvE for 12 hours/day since launch I'm sure he's be through all the content a long time ago. That is a ridiculously high average for an entire month.

That's pretty crazy. I guess if all you do is PvP, I can see how that is possible, since it's really not a very optimal way to get AP/SP apparently. Still, it doesn't mean that the game has a lot of content. It just shows that he deliberately ignored most of it.

That actually means that he's been grinding (repeating) the same limited content (PvP) over and over again. That definitely doesn't mean the game has a lot of content.

I could do the same in any game and then pretend it has a lot of content... if it wouldn't bore me to death ;)

I know, it's strange. He comes in and says, "where's the endgame?!" and then shows us that he has PvP'd for 12 hours a day since the release of TSW. I mean, PvP is going to be a pretty central part of the endgame for me and many others in GW2. 

And then that other guy can't fathom that some people don't like gear treadmills. Even when given valid reasons he just freaks out and acts like the WoW model is the only acceptable way to enjoy a game at max level. 

At least they are obvious. One forgives every single flaw in TSW like it was "the messiah" :P and the other is absolutely in love with the gear system in WoW. 

Originally posted by Adzija

Originally posted by expendable83

Originally posted by DKLond

GW2 does remove a lot of grind by removing a lot of the power progression horizon.

Unfortunately, it doesn't replace what it removes with anything.

They're just expecting players to repeat similar content over and over for "prestige" rewards instead of actual power.

But since the game will inevitably be exhausted in terms of fresh content in a relatively short period of time - I don't see any advantage whatsoever.

Well, unless you really enjoy repeating content over and over because it's SO fun - as if that wasn't possible in other themeparks. Content is fun for a while - and then you start looking for something new. The reason people raided Molten Core for 1-2 years isn't that the instance was so very brilliant - but because it offered them a carrot. Content burns itself out inevitably. In GW2 - it will just happen a lot faster.

WvW is, of course, significant if you're into playing an identical map on a 2-week reset timer over and over - where you're simply one face amongst countless others, either being part of the mindless zerg or following orders from a "leader" type figure. Oh, for no reward except the "prestige loot" and potentially winning this closed-off instance that has no relation with the open world

Not for me, but to each his own.

++1 to all that. And .. those are just some of the problems this game has. It will be ugly after the first 1-2 weeks :D

So it's now problem that you don't have to do content when it's no longer fun?

Weird, I tought real problem is that game makes you do content even if it's not fun any more because you need that last boss drop.

Just pointing out that people have different views and this whole discussion is pointless.

Yea yea, that's the problem, this game is only for the people with different views, and after 1 or 2 months you be the only one left - 100k people with the different views, then because nobody play it this game will die .. nobody cares about your different views. And .. not to mention how the things dosn't scale properly in this game, that a lot of people will be bored to death from those dynamic quests and will start slacking .. at it's base mechanics this game is broken. Whatever, guild wars 2 has no viability. The content is added with years of development but they won't have a chance to add more.

Originally posted by botrytis

Originally posted by jusomdude

Originally posted by colddog04

Originally posted by jusomdude

One thing I don't get about all the GW2 fans is that they hate the gear grind yet support the level grind. They both have an end, they both make your character more powerful. Seriously what's the big difference? Is it that the end game gear is too difficult to obtain for you, so you feel you can't compete with the sub max gear?

There is a major difference betwen the two that you just seem to be missing for some reason. The gear grind does not have an end in other games like you try and express in your post. You literally just gloss over that fact that is so central to the reason why some people don't enjoy gear grinding.

There is a limit to the level grind in most MMORPGs.

There is no limit to the gear grind in many MMORPGs.

Leveling feels worthwhile because you accomplish something that can't be taken away from you. Gear grinding has the odd effect of making you feel like you haven't accomplished anything because everything is replaceable within a short period of time. Your gear is essentially taken away from you by being made worthless when it comes to enjoying new content every three to six months.

You apprently enjoy gear grinding. And that's fine and there are a lot of games with that mechanic for you to play. But GW2 is not one of those games. The game does reward you in many ways, but stat progression through a repeatable gear grind is not one of them. 

What the sam hell are you talking about. There isn't an infinite amount of end game gear to collect. Once you get the gear for the current expansion or big patch you're done until the next one. Maxing a character out in second best pvp gear in wow might take a month if you play very casually. A few days if you play a bit more. And when it comes to gear. It doesn't matter what the hell you have unless you like to pvp. Although even pve gear that would allow all content to be seen can be attained quickly also.

Do you rage when you have to gain more levels in xpacs? I don't see how people are fans of RPGs when they are against their core mechanics.

GW2 isn't even fixing this when it comes to WvW. There are still gear and level disparities. Maybe just not as severe as other games. Sure low levels are boosted, but they are still gimped when fighting real higher leveled players.

Gear grind IS infinite - I will give you an example - RIFT. Patch 1.9 is out and it has a new instance and new gear. It takes alot of grinding to get ALL the gear from that instance. The gear is also higher spec'ed so YOU want that gear to replace your current gear. You also have to grind out dailies and other instances to buy this new gear. They are already planning the next expansion for Rift and that will also have more gear that is higher ned.

That is what we mean by infinite. Just because you have the current armor, you still have to save up to get the armor from the next patch because it will be better than what you have already. Call it the 'Gear Grind' wheel. You also have to go through these instances alot to get the right items for the gear. They reset these instances and they rest in Rift each week. ALso the amount of time to play in a group in each instance (normally 3-5 hrs minimum) for 1/2 of the instance. I won't even mention the cookie cutter builds you have to use to get through.

ok, here's my attempt to answer to all you guys...

Yellow: I can't speak for others much like you can't assume all GW2 fans are all the same. Gear grind is very different from "level grind" (more accurately, leveling). Not sure how leveling can even be considered grinding, unless you can only lvl by gear grinding and only gear grind by mindlessly doing repetitive quests. Gear grinding is a mechanic to trap players in an endless treadmill in order to get them to keep playing and spending money in the game (whether it be via monthly subs or CS's). Leveling is a game mechanic with the purpose of measuring the progress of players through what monsters/players you can kill, what gear/armor you can equip, and what quests/DE's you can do. In other words, leveling is a tool that the devs use in order to separate the progression various elements of gameplay throughout the progression of said gameplay. Not sure how you can even call leveling "level grind", unless the game you're playing sucks so much that even leveling your player feels like a grind because of the mindlessly repetitive and limited choices you have.

Yellow-Red: Just because things share commonalities (only two in your case) does not make them the same. There are liberal fanatics and conservative fanatics, but you would be hard pressed to find two groups more different from each other.

Blue: There are limits to both gear grinding and leveling, as to how long it takes a player to get there depends on the player. I understand what you're saying. If you don't get all the new gear before a newer set arrives, it does seem to make the gear grind endless, but there is an end, problem is you just didn't get there fast enough. Having said that however, I would not be surprised that that there is a bit of intentionality in the process; release newer gear before the average player (majority of players) gets there in order to keep them in the treadmill, thus spending money on your game.

Blue-Red: New gear is not rendered worthless by newer gear, it's just not as powerful. In WOW, you can still participate in raids, but don't expect to be the highest dps in the group.

Green: I highly doubt that, I am a true casual wow player (my last month until my account expires in order to play GW2) and it does take me longer than a month to get complete sets of gear; whether they pve and/or pvp. I think you're being a bit disingenuous with your measurements of time in regards to acquiring gear; one of wow's biggest sins, in my opinion of course, is that wow requires a lot of time in order to make it worth playing; one of the biggest reasons why I'm switching over to GW2.

Green-Red1: Gear does matter other than just in pvp, especially in WOW. In order to get into any decent raiding groups you need a certain overall gear level; it may not matter as much, but it certainly does matter. No denying that my friend.

Green-Red2: Again with being disingenuous. There are indeed gear and level disparities, but there are so minimal, they are hardly noticeable. In WVW I've downed many players who were clearly higher level than I was. I'm not saying there isn't a small level of disparity, but based on how you were describing it, I believe you were exaggerating the disparity and misinforming the reader. Lower level players are not "gimped" when fighting higher level players in WVW, yes, they may be slightly less powerful with a little less health, but the disparity is not near what you claim it to be.

Orange: Gear grind is not infinite! It may take a long time to get all the gear, and if you fail to get it before the next patch, yes it may appear never-ending, but it is not infinite.

Orange-Red: Just because you save up (you don't have to) for the gear coming in the next patch does not make it infinite. By the way, if you can save up for the next patch, I guess you not only got all the gear for the current patch but you had so much extra time you are able to save up for the next set of gear... not bad.

Summary: I think ya'll are ignoring each other's arguments. Not all GW2 players hate gear and level progression, at least I don't hate them, I just don't lie the monotony. GW2 does not get rid of all grinding, what I think it does, and very well might I add, is disguise whatever little grind it has in order to improve the gameplay experience. No game is without a certain amount of grind, the key though is to mask it in order for the players to not notice it. Just my two cents, please don't be too rough on me haha :-)

Originally posted by heartless

Originally posted by bcbully

Originally posted by heartless

Originally posted by GoldenArrow

A lot of people will also stick to GW2 just so they don't need to admit they were wrong.

I.E the case Star Wars: The Old Republic.

And TSW.

Nah 1 month in 14 days /played ability wheel at 50% and haven't did any of the stories or investigations. The best part 10/20 man raids Aug. 31st. Might get Aux. weapons too. So much to do in TSW atm.

14 days /played and wheel only at 50%? And you haven't done any story and investigations? I had 37% at 4 days /played.

Maybe someone who has not played TSW will believe you about how much content there really is. For some who has played it, your comment is laughable. I "beat" the game after about 5 days played. What was left was running the same 2 instances, grind zergy PvP or rerun the same quests in Transilvania to get more SP/AP, which I wasn't going to do.

http://chronicle.thesecretworld.com/character/Oci

Seven days /played.  I repeated Transylavania a couple  times already before I just called it quits before the beta weekend for GW2.

Originally posted by sammandar

Blue: There are limits to both gear grinding and leveling, as to how long it takes a player to get there depends on the player. I understand what you're saying. If you don't get all the new gear before a newer set arrives, it does seem to make the gear grind endless, but there is an end, problem is you just didn't get there fast enough. Having said that however, I would not be surprised that that there is a bit of intentionality in the process; release newer gear before the average player (majority of players) gets there in order to keep them in the treadmill, thus spending money on your game.

Blue-Red: New gear is not rendered worthless by newer gear, it's just not as powerful. In WOW, you can still participate in raids, but don't expect to be the highest dps in the group.

While there is a limit on how MUCH gear you need to grind per content release, you are always aware that you will being DEing pieces of gear fairly soon down the road. The knowledge that you are going to be replacing your gear in the very near future is always there. The gear grind, at least in WoW, is indeed infinite. Every 3 - 6 months, it's happening. Actually, even during the 3-6 months, it's happening as you replace older gear along the way. This process goes on forever (assuming you are interested in seeing the new content).

To make matters worse, with a gear treadmill, the newest and best gear trivializes all older content (including the content that you just spend a month trying to master in many cases).

The crazy part is that I really like WoW. I had a lot of fun in that game. And I can definitely see the draw of getting rewarded all the time. These days I'd just rather be able to focus on doing the things I like to do rather than do some grinding before I have access to doing the things I actually like to do. I don't think it's abnormal and I think a lot of people are on board with that sentiment.

Originally posted by colddog04

Originally posted by sammandar

Blue: There are limits to both gear grinding and leveling, as to how long it takes a player to get there depends on the player. I understand what you're saying. If you don't get all the new gear before a newer set arrives, it does seem to make the gear grind endless, but there is an end, problem is you just didn't get there fast enough. Having said that however, I would not be surprised that that there is a bit of intentionality in the process; release newer gear before the average player (majority of players) gets there in order to keep them in the treadmill, thus spending money on your game.

Blue-Red: New gear is not rendered worthless by newer gear, it's just not as powerful. In WOW, you can still participate in raids, but don't expect to be the highest dps in the group.

While there is a limit on how MUCH gear you need to grind per content release, you are always aware that you will being DEing pieces of gear fairly soon down the road. The knowledge that you are going to be replacing your gear in the very near future is always there. The gear grind, at least in WoW, is indeed infinite. Every 3 - 6 months, it's happening. Actually, even during the 3-6 months, it's happening as you replace older gear along the way. This process goes on forever (assuming you are interested in seeing the new content).

To make matters worse, with a gear treadmill, the newest and best gear trivializes all older content (including the content that you just spend a month trying to master in many cases).

The crazy part is that I really like WoW. I had a lot of fun in that game. And I can definitely see the draw of getting rewarded all the time. These days I'd just rather be able to focus on doing the things I like to do rather than do some grinding before I have access to doing the things I actually like to do. I don't think it's abnormal and I think a lot of people are on board with that sentiment.

To me that's the saddest aspect of WOW; the trivialization of old content. One of the things I like the most in GW2 is that you can always go back and revisit/redo old content and its fun due to level scaling.

Originally posted by sammandar

Originally posted by colddog04

Originally posted by sammandar

Blue: There are limits to both gear grinding and leveling, as to how long it takes a player to get there depends on the player. I understand what you're saying. If you don't get all the new gear before a newer set arrives, it does seem to make the gear grind endless, but there is an end, problem is you just didn't get there fast enough. Having said that however, I would not be surprised that that there is a bit of intentionality in the process; release newer gear before the average player (majority of players) gets there in order to keep them in the treadmill, thus spending money on your game.

Blue-Red: New gear is not rendered worthless by newer gear, it's just not as powerful. In WOW, you can still participate in raids, but don't expect to be the highest dps in the group.

While there is a limit on how MUCH gear you need to grind per content release, you are always aware that you will being DEing pieces of gear fairly soon down the road. The knowledge that you are going to be replacing your gear in the very near future is always there. The gear grind, at least in WoW, is indeed infinite. Every 3 - 6 months, it's happening. Actually, even during the 3-6 months, it's happening as you replace older gear along the way. This process goes on forever (assuming you are interested in seeing the new content).

To make matters worse, with a gear treadmill, the newest and best gear trivializes all older content (including the content that you just spend a month trying to master in many cases).

The crazy part is that I really like WoW. I had a lot of fun in that game. And I can definitely see the draw of getting rewarded all the time. These days I'd just rather be able to focus on doing the things I like to do rather than do some grinding before I have access to doing the things I actually like to do. I don't think it's abnormal and I think a lot of people are on board with that sentiment.

To me that's the saddest aspect of WOW; the trivialization of old content. One of the things I like the most in GW2 is that you can always go back and revisit/redo old content and its fun due to level scaling.

And if you take their system further, no matter how much content they release and where they release it, it will always be relevant. Forever. Even if they raise the cap, all of the stuff that was awesome and hard at 80, will still be awesome and hard at 90.

For an example, in WoW, you would have access to 9 million raids that are relevant if they used a similar system to GW2.

I think it's going to be an intetresting experiment. best of my knowledge (and correct me if I'm wrong, please!), this is the first game that has done ALL of the following at the same time:

1. Eschewed traditional "endgame" PvE raiding.
2. Used de-levelling in zones so that no content is irrelevant to your level.
3. Used such a nearly flat gear curve.
4. Encouraged you to go back and do areas you haven't completed for something more than meaningless achievement points.

Originally posted by colddog04

Originally posted by sammandar

To me that's the saddest aspect of WOW; the trivialization of old content. One of the things I like the most in GW2 is that you can always go back and revisit/redo old content and its fun due to level scaling.

And if you take their system further, no matter how much content they release and where they release it, it will always be relevant. Forever. Even if they raise the cap, all of the stuff that was awesome and hard at 80, will still be awesome and hard at 90.

For an example, in WoW, you would have access to 9 million raids that are relevant if they used a similar system to GW2.

True, you would be able to go back to the Scarlet Monastery as a lvl 85 (having your lvl scaled back) and it would be nearly as fun as it was when you were a cute little lowbie... sad, so sad.

Originally posted by sammandar

Originally posted by colddog04

Originally posted by sammandar

To me that's the saddest aspect of WOW; the trivialization of old content. One of the things I like the most in GW2 is that you can always go back and revisit/redo old content and its fun due to level scaling.

And if you take their system further, no matter how much content they release and where they release it, it will always be relevant. Forever. Even if they raise the cap, all of the stuff that was awesome and hard at 80, will still be awesome and hard at 90.

For an example, in WoW, you would have access to 9 million raids that are relevant if they used a similar system to GW2.

True, you would be able to go back to the Scarlet Monastery as a lvl 85 (having your lvl scaled back) and it would be nearly as fun as it was when you were a cute little lowbie... sad, so sad.

And having a gear treadmill destroys that design concept that I like so much. Because as the gear gets better and better, more and more stuff would be trivialized.

Originally posted by terrant

I think it's going to be an intetresting experiment. best of my knowledge (and correct me if I'm wrong, please!), this is the first game that has done ALL of the following at the same time:

1. Eschewed traditional "endgame" PvE raiding.
2. Used de-levelling in zones so that no content is irrelevant to your level.
3. Used such a nearly flat gear curve.
4. Encouraged you to go back and do areas you haven't completed for something more than meaningless achievement points.

It's a unique concept of PvE endgame, and it may or may not work out. It's one of my biggest concerns for the game...but if it works out, it may actually revolutionize the idea that endgame=raiding in PvE, or that the entire levelling experience is just a meaningless way to get to cap so you can do the "real" content.

I agree...it will be interesting. And i'll be glad to try it out myself.

I just don't understand why people that don't like it have to say: ''You'll see in 2 months when it fails''. If I didn't like it I wouldn't play it but for sure I wouldn't wish for it to fail. For me the more diversities in gaming we have it has more quality.

Take SWTOR for example. I played that game and loved leveling. It was really fun. But when I got to so called ''endgame'' I realised it was exactly same as most other games. Nothing new so when I got tired of leveling I stoped playing.

If all games had same gameplay and features gaming would be boring. Instead of wishing for everything new to fail we should try it out and see if it fits us or not

Guild Wars 2's endgame is just like the game. According to MMOFTW: "It's all carrot no stick".

You will keep doing what you've been doing from lvl 1-80, mostly. Either you like it or you don't, it is not like Lineage where you have to grind through boredom to get to the PvP part.

Originally posted by terrant

I think it's going to be an intetresting experiment. best of my knowledge (and correct me if I'm wrong, please!), this is the first game that has done ALL of the following at the same time:

1. Eschewed traditional "endgame" PvE raiding.
2. Used de-levelling in zones so that no content is irrelevant to your level.
3. Used such a nearly flat gear curve.
4. Encouraged you to go back and do areas you haven't completed for something more than meaningless achievement points.

It's a unique concept of PvE endgame, and it may or may not work out. It's one of my biggest concerns for the game...but if it works out, it may actually revolutionize the idea that endgame=raiding in PvE, or that the entire levelling experience is just a meaningless way to get to cap so you can do the "real" content.

nice post

the only time ive experienced something similar was in Everquest where you would be level capped but grind AA doing anything

raiding was the endgame in EQ but the AA system gave perks for nonraiders to work on despite being max level

Originally posted by colddog04

 

And if you take their system further, no matter how much content they release and where they release it, it will always be relevant. Forever. Even if they raise the cap, all of the stuff that was awesome and hard at 80, will still be awesome and hard at 90.

 

For an example, in WoW, you would have access to 9 million raids that are relevant if they used a similar system to GW2.

this is the big one for me. How the DE system works they are hardly ever play out exactly the same in later zones and branch out a lot more further in the game you get. Also Anet has said they will continue to expand and add new ones. Also having access to essentially 32 dungeons at level 80 and any they add in the future will always be worth running through for rewards and a challenge. Doing this offers an insane amount of replayability compared to similar games.

Originally posted by DKLond

Ehm, no, the problem is that the game will inevitably be "no longer fun" in a few months - like all themeparks. Now, I fully agree that introducing gear grind is a very poor excuse to extend the lifetime of a game - but it STILL offers MORE than GW2 with NO grind.

Untrue.  GW2 will have more "end game" content because (on top of other things) you'll be able to do lower level events/dungeons and they will still be a fun challenge.  In a typical MMO you're limited to running the same 2 or 3 instances over and over and over and over because there's nothing else to do.  Just because you get an upgrade every once in a blue moon doesn't mean that's more content.

I have no idea why people keep grinding gear if they don't think that's fun - but I never did. Personally, I'm ok with the way the token system has been introduced that put a natural limit on how much "grind" the games had. I still don't like the grind - but if the games offered more than simply content repetition - then I'd have much more fun going for gear than going for nothing at all.

Problem is that neither GW2 - nor any other themepark offer MORE than repetition of similar content. They're still just themeparks with developer-created "rides" that will naturally exhaust their own fun. GW2 does NOTHING to alleviate this.

Neither does any other game, including sandbox MMO's.  Just because you're building your own towns or whatever doesn't mean it's not repetitive.  In fact, often times sandbox MMO's are even worse because of all the material gathering you have to do every time someone burns it to the ground.

By almost entirely removing the gear grind - ArenaNet has cured the disease by killing the patient. They might think that's brilliant - and their fans might think that's brilliant - but I certainly don't. It just means even less of a reason to repeat content.

If you need a gear grind to entice you to repeat content you're bored of (and often times paying the company a monthly fee in the process) then perhaps it's not such a good thing after all.

I think what a lot of people are forgetting(or refusing to acknowledge) is that low level content is tuned for low level characters in low level gear NOT a downscaled level 80 in a full set of Exotic gear. There is a HUGE difference.

It wont be fun or challenging it will be a sad joke.

In the stress test last week I went some low levels areas I hadnt been to before on my level 30 Guardian in Masterwork gear and the only time I was ever in danger of dying is when I had 5 mobs on me. Yeah, it was fun to destroy the content with little chance of dying but it wasnt challenging at all.

Originally posted by Xiaoki

I think what a lot of people are forgetting(or refusing to acknowledge) is that low level content is tuned for low level characters in low level gear NOT a downscaled level 80 in a full set of Exotic gear. There is a HUGE difference.

It wont be fun or challenging it will be a sad joke.

In the stress test last week I went some low levels areas I hadnt been to before on my level 30 Guardian in Masterwork gear and the only time I was ever in danger of dying is when I had 5 mobs on me. Yeah, it was fun to destroy the content with little chance of dying but it wasnt challenging at all.

 

You were also playing a Guardian....which probably needs a little bit of a survivability nerf. But holding that aside...there's a far cry between "Being able to fight off 3-4 mobs without serious danger" and "running around the zone watching mobs 1-shot themselves on your damage aura and never losing a single hp"

I don't doubt level 1 zones will be much easier as an 80..but you will get usable loot and rewards, and combat will be far more involved than if you were a level 85 walking into the newbiew area in WoW.

Originally posted by Xiaoki

I think what a lot of people are forgetting(or refusing to acknowledge) is that low level content is tuned for low level characters in low level gear NOT a downscaled level 80 in a full set of Exotic gear. There is a HUGE difference.

It wont be fun or challenging it will be a sad joke.

In the stress test last week I went some low levels areas I hadnt been to before on my level 30 Guardian in Masterwork gear and the only time I was ever in danger of dying is when I had 5 mobs on me. Yeah, it was fun to destroy the content with little chance of dying but it wasnt challenging at all.

 

It's true that low level content isn't tuned for a higher level character, higher level characters have utility and elite skills, not available for lower level characters. I believe the break point will be at level 30. At level 30 a character will have access to all skill slots (including elite) which can make a huge difference in battle. From 30 to 80 there shouldn't be such a huge difference in difficulty.