Originally posted by Drakxii

I am so tried of the anti sandbox fans that say that no one is looking a sandbox by using "logic" that since AAA MMOs makers don't make them, the majority of gamers don't want to play a sandbox game.  

 

Never mind that before CU/NGE and WOW, SWG had good numbers despite that it was horribly balanced and ridded with bugs that SOE had no interest in fixing.  

Nor do they seem to care that EVE has been running strong, with a sub model, for more then 9 years in the age of WOW.

They also seem to ingore the millions that play Skyrim and Minecraft.  Are they true sandboxes?  Nope but they anrt linear cooridoor games with crappy stories and bland combat like these "MMOs" we have been getting. 

 

 

Now I am willing to admit that none of these mean that a more sandbox like MMO would been the next WoW but to say that there isn't a good market is just silly.  Clearly there is a market for it, the only question is how big of a market it is.  

 

Heck give a sandbox MMO a good IP, lots of hype/spin and well known dev/pubisher, I would bet it would sell just as well as WAR or SWTOR did before everyone quit. 

All very good points, but something should also be added, we're heading into an age where development can easily be backed by fans or private investors. With the seeming early success of kickstarter, I wouldn't be surprised to see this route become more and more prevalent for those seeking to build games that are a bit more out of the box, if those companies see success it will only grow.

Anyone who implies Sandbox games are in any way a thing of the past is not paing attention. In recent years we have seen hugely funded themepark after themepark go fp2 or outright fail. Yet, few sandboxes follow this path or fold in near the same amount of time these themeparks collapse. 

Many of the Genre's most duable titles are sandboxes. Yet, a vast majority of the total titles are themeparks.

Do the math.

I don't know, i see alot of people saying that sandbox players are the minority of players compared to themepark players - what i think is true.

But question is, how many ACTUALLY are sandbox players? I am sure if you gather up all the sandbox players who actually WANT a sandbox game such as similar to UO etc, then i am sure you will get a nice large playerbase within a game. Of course wont be as much as WoW - but dont care, who needs 10million players anyway.

How many players did UO have at its peak? I am sure there are so many more players who have flocked to the sandbox liking that having another UO kind of game would bring in the masses.

We just need a developer who will take their money and the risks to make something - because in reality there ARE many people who will go to their game providing it pleases the sandbox community to give them what they want.

Originally posted by Creslin321

Okay let me start this off by saying that I AM a sandbox fan, but what I have noticed is that most sandbox fans, myself included, typically clamor for just a few features that have been around since the nineties.  For example, we all want player housing, many of us want open-world PvP, we want crafting to be a dominant force, we want a very large amount of "gatherable" resources, we want to be able to own vehicles, etc. etc.

In fact, it seems like many developers are "living in the past" as well.  Just about every fantasy sandbox game I have played seems like it's living in UO's shadow.  Darkfall and MO are prime examples here.  They really don't try to accomplish anything that UO already didn't do...and they sadly fall short in that department.

My point in all this is that I feel like the free-form ideals of sandbox games are really the ultimate future of MMORPGs, but we're never going to get there if we keep living in the past.  Many ideas of the past are great and are still applicable, but devs and players alike have to start looking forward to new sandbox ideas, instead of just trying to replicate the deified games of the past.  We can't have housing, crafting, and FFA-PvP be the end all be all of sandbox gaming if we ever want it to succeed.

Thoughts?

In my opinion, we CAN have housing, meaningful crafting, resource gathering,  and PvP, which comprise the cornerstone of sandboxing, with a few themepark features like dungeons, quests, instancing, auction houses, banks, etc., plus other new goodies they may want to dream up.  Why not? A smart developer would know that these are the things players want.  Satisfying player wants = subscriptions and everybody is happy.  Seriously considering player suggestions is a great way of making a great game and keeping it alive. That, and balancing their races classes weapons and armor are essential.   These all should be inplace at release.  I say this because there is nothing more frustrating than having something taken away from players when they are already used to having it.   Problem is, few developers do this.  Instead, they have a tendency to nerf their games to oblivion making their subscribers unhappy campers.  Unhappy campers tend to walk.

Maybe we're living in denial of how well known this concept is. I saw this over at SWTOR forums.

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=516677

Originally posted by Atlan99

I think sandbox players are a vocal minority.

I think they make a lot of noise with their keyboards but very little impact with their wallets.

imho your statement is SO wrong, you are saying sandbox players are not talking with there wallets......i think they are talking with their wallets because real sandbox player aint buying panda expansions and every new mmo that comes out.

They are prolly playing UO free charts and minecraft alikes (maybe some themeparks, but i am sure they dont play every theme-MMO you throw at them).

So imho Sandboxers are the only one that DO talk with their money....and devs are starting to see this, housing is slowly making its return into games, also crafting is becoming (slowly but surely) more and more important in newer games these days.....so sandbox elements ARE slowly comming back because they did talk talk with their money.

The only reason there are alot of theme-mmo's out there is because of the theme-park fans out there who buy every mmo that hits the market, rush to endgame and then quit after playing 1 to 2 months.

So companies make 50bucks(for the boxed game or digital download) + 2 months sub (30 bucks).....thats 80 bucks a person and then they have to go FTP because the thempark fans just give up (blaming the devs there aint enough content).

If a good sandbox would hit the market (proof is in the puddin, example is UO, the mother of all MMO's imo) and you charged a 10 bucks sub you would make alot of money in the long run. Why? it would take you about 6 months (as in the old UO days) to get you to your maximum potential with skills (max lvl), then you still had no house of your own and even if you did you would always want more decorations for your home or you had vendors at your house to sell your crafting goods or treasures you looted in dungeons.....your vendors need restocking and you would have to do some crafting or heavy dungeon grinding to get good gear to sell. (i miss the days of mining and crafting/repairing peoples armors and weapons).

My point, in a sandbox YOU decide what you want to do, not the game....your imagination was the endgame.

So to sum it up who could make more money as a dev.....the themepark games or the sandbox??

50 bucks for the game + 10 bucks sub for at least 6 months = 110 bucks and going steady because there is always something to do in a sandbox. This agains the 80 bucks of the themepark that also costed a good 100+ millions to make (SWTOR anyone??).

just mho....

Ever since I played Minecraft I haven't been able to go back to Themeparks.

I miss you so much SWG. :(

Cult of Defeatism.

Not just the sandbox guys, it's pandemic to this website.

I often get the feeling many people like Sandbox games because it's the cool thing to like right now.

But yes, i do get the feeling that many Sandboxers (the real ones) are living in the past.

Originally posted by Djildjamesh

I often get the feeling many people like Sandbox games because it's the cool thing to like right now.

GW2 isn't a sandbox mmo.

@ OP if living in the past means wanting a good sandbox game, with openworld pvp, cuty building, harsh death penalties, good crafting, player run ecoamy, good game play, good community... if thats the case then hell yeah im living in the past..and i hope to see this past become the future..

I dont want instant gratification games, themepark games, easy games, no pvp or restricted to silly battle zoens or whatever.. if thats the future then im a sad person..

Dont get me wrong i know sandbox type games have a small following and i dont expect millions of people to be playing them. Saying that there are enough people out there who would sub to a well made sandbox mmmorpg to make a company quite a big of cash.. Companies just have to realise they dont need to compete with WOW... WoW fans are WoW fans for a reason they like it and they probally wont leave..

Living in the past? No.

Living in denial about the proportion of MMO players that enjoy sandbox games? Absolutely.

no

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DAFWxk7oF6s&feature=player_embedded

actly we allways live in the future

Originally posted by Icewhite

Cult of Defeatism.

Not just the sandbox guys, it's pandemic to this website.

Yeah, and SWTOR proved that so well. Remember SWTOR? The game that was hyped by so many, even after playing it in Beta? Remember how it was going to show how wrong Sandboxers are?

I will agree that it's a pandemic, though. You got that much right.

I like the posts by those who have the external perspective and are basically just spewing: "Yeah, theyre living in the past and there aren't many of them but they talk too much!"

The paradigm may be shifting, be careful where you spit because you may have to sit there soon.

I think classic MMORPG fans wants to continue to play games that they like. They dont want them to evolve into something very different. I think there should be classic games based on exploring and with a virtual world. Games that was popular 10 years ago are still fun today. New games can be like them but with modern graphics and new virtual worlds. Some new features and mechanics can be added. But not in a way that change the basic design or turns them into a new sub genre...

Some people just dont want change. They prefer to play the type of games they like. Or perhaps you could say they want to continue living in the past. Because its fun.

A good game should be a hybrid with some of the best sandbox features but also with some developer created content. Modern themepark players would of course call a game like that a sandbox. And would not recognize it was a hybrid. But I think this is the type of game that needs to be reborn. It can be marketed and advertized as something new and revolutionary...even if it is based on classic MMORPG ideas. Because for most young players it will be something new and different. Like fashion. Things that was popular decades ago often becomes popular again.

Originally posted by Hurvart

A good game should be

How many, many different phrases have been attached after that clause.

Originally posted by gravesworn
I was never in the beginning era of mmorpgs. WoW was my first, and only successful stint in mmorpgs, and i enjoyed it for a time. I really wish i would have been around for some of these older games. I am 29 but i really didnt get in to gaming until after highschool. Well besides counterstrike. Anyway...sandboxs sound amazing. I did enjoy darkfall for a good 6 months. The hope for the future to me is in a hybrid system. As in make a sandbox world at the core. Then have some themepark encounters sprinkled on. It seems right now. Most games are straight themeprks or themeparks with sandbox features sprinkled on. As missy elliot says. Put your thang down flip it ... Reverse it

That's actually what most of us Sandboxers want. It's not that it's adding Themepark to the Sandbox, it's that you're making a better Sandbox game. But you can look at it either way, I guess.

The key thing with this is that you have to add Themepark to Sandbox, not the other way around. Because a Themepark game, even with Sandbox elements, is still a Themepark and still suffers from exactly the fixed, directed game play that is worn out now. Although it would make for a better Themepark game, a la GW2 and AA (presumably, time will tell on each). 

I think there's room for "quests" in a variety of ways in a Sandbox. UO has added quests over the years, and most of them are not Themeparkish. In fact, UO always had "Boss MOBs" in the sense that the lowest levels of Dungeons had the most powerfull MOBs. It just wasn't driven through quests, and anyone could go there if they could survive the higher levels of the dungeons. Not saying they'd last very long, but they could go there. And friends of higher skills could help them stay alive or resurrect them repeatedly.

I also think there's room for, and IMO a deirable apsect of, "Classes" in a special case sense. I think it would be cool if, as an example, to become a "Paladin" you first have to have a certain subset of skills, then go to a Paladin Headquarters and request admitance where you are given a quest you must complete before you are accepted. That quest can be very Themeparkish, as even most Sandbox games have their static content. A liche Lord, for example, can always respawn (and it doesn't mean it's the same Liche Lord?). Kill the Liche Lord (even with help, after all being a Paladin isn't just about solo strength), gain the Soul Gem, and return it to the Paladins. Gain perks as a Paladin.

Having Alignment actions recorded for the character can add to a game of this nature. If the character has ever killed innocent civilians, that can be recorded on the Character, and the Paladins may never accept this character into their ranks. Likewise, killing an innocent after becoming a Paladin could cause the Character to lose Paladin status, booted from the "guild", and lose all perks.

I suspect the business model of sandbox + cash shop = win. (Pay $ for furniture in your player housing!)

On the other hand, it is hard to say how many people really would play such a game. You might only be able to do it in a very popular IP (like Star Wars).