I already started thread about trinity stating that nothing essentially is wrong with it except trivialization of the system in later MMO-s. Trinity in the past was rich system with hybrid classes, crowd control, buffing/debuffing, protection, variety types of damage/resistance and so on. Than after mass popularization MMO-s system got dumbed down to the bare basics and left without any substance. All because of human factor from both sides, players and game developers.

Now with GW2 combat, it's nice to see someone finally to take the risk and try to change something in almost broken trinity system. What actually ANet made is MMO with all hybrid classes/professions with slight variation in control/damage/protection including self-heal and avoidance. Hybrid profession is not easy to play, for that reason was always my favorite pick especially those protection/healing types.

What Anet says: “Combat in Guild Wars 2 is flexible, fast-paced, and dynamic. You’ll achieve victory through timing, dodging, and quick thinking, not immobile number-crunching. “

Sounds nice, but we are talking here about MMORPG-s, demography in MMO-s are everything between 12-80 years old, '50%' of those players just cant perform good enough in mission critical situation needed to be viable in control/protection part of the combat. On the other hand, those same '50%' can be brilliant on dealing damage or something else. In GW2 there is no way to avoid this if you want to 'achieve victory'.

Anet: “Use your surroundings for maximum effect. Your position on the battlefield is vitally important, as many attacks in Guild Wars 2 reward tactical player movement. “

Here we are again, almost in every of my PUG-s half of the players was not situational aware enough, ok, it was mainly tank/healer job, but what if they hate(unable to perform) this aspect of the combat. As Anet claim, this will be vitally important. Those players will have bad performance in groups and surely they will not like it.

Anet: “Every profession in Guild Wars 2 excels at combat, without exception. Because each profession is so versatile and has such a wide range of skills and powers, it doesn’t matter what mix of professions are on the battlefield. “

“We’re putting the fun back in fantasy combat—join us on the battlefield! “

They will not stop elitism in GW2, it will be introduced even more than in other games, just wait and you'll see. There is no escape for combat weak players, if they make GW2 too easy than majority of those who love dynamic and rewarding combat will hate it. (with tinfoil hat) Maybe this was plan from the beginning to make easy casual theme-park.

I'm not expert on 'human factor' field, I’m speaking only from my experience playing MMO-s. So, pls take my comments in moderation, ty. ;)

EDIT: Colored Anet quotation

People that are not that fast, should stick to a single build, and keep playing that untill they mastered it in all its finesses.

And dont play ELE or ENG, if you dont excell at this kind of gameplay.

Originally posted by Dkompoze
I can tell english isnt your 1st language, this was a struggle to read.  Humans either make it or break it.

English is my third language, sry for that...

Dont know about the rest of you but when I first started playing in BWE1 I found GW2 quite difficult to play, until I got used to it. The biggest thing was realising that dodging and kiting is a must, and that you cant just stand still and attack, especially when toe to toe with mobs.

Once I sussed that out I got much better and after a few hours of play it was second nature to me. However, I played a bit of Rift between BWE1 and BWE2 and had slipped back into my old ways and had to 'relearn' how to play GW2, or at least get my muscle memory to remember how to play! Only took a little while again though....

Im sure people will be able to pick it up without too much hassle....

im not really sure why people find this combat is that hard to get good at . You can spend one or two days trying out different roles and builds and be good at it.  its still a tab targeting system with a ground aoe setup. The only new feature is dodge and that is pretty standard stuff. You have one hotbar so your rotations are smaller then games like wow and rift even swtor, so you should have no issue watching the screen so you can dodge at the right times .

Also I play an elementalist that uses all four elements of the staff and i have a rotation that starts in electrictity goes to earth then to fire then to water. Its pretty simple and in no way more difficult in playing then any other class. Im not sure why people are finding the combat that hard to do . I found Tera combat WAY more difficult to do then GW2 but thats because it was slow and ackward combo attacks. GW2 combat is leagues easier in my opinion.

It wont fail but it wont be the OMFGWTFBBQ success some people here think it will be.

The problem with GW2 is that right now everyone is under the impression they are going to be amazing at it and better than everyone else who used to beat them in other MMO's only because they had better gear.

This of course is a delusional thinking and the reality is that the people who were the best at pvp in other games will almost certainly be the best at GW2 pvp and the people here who think they are skilled (but really arent) are gonna get their asses handed to them like always. Many of them will ragequit while the others go onto ANets forums and demand nerfs to everyone else.

Its the circle of MMO pvp. And GW2 will be no different.

Originally posted by Luxthor

I already started thread about trinity stating that nothing essentially is wrong with it except trivialization of the system in later MMO-s. Trinity in the past was rich system with hybrid classes, crowd control, buffing/debuffing, protection, variety types of damage/resistance and so on. Than after mass popularization MMO-s system got dumbed down to the bare basics and left without any substance. All because of human factor from both sides, players and game developers.

Now with GW2 combat, it's nice to see someone finally to take the risk and try to change something in almost broken trinity system. What actually ANet made is MMO with all hybrid classes/professions with slight variation in control/damage/protection including self-heal and avoidance. Hybrid profession is not easy to play, for that reason was always my favorite pick especially those protection/healing types.

What Anet says: “Combat in Guild Wars 2 is flexible, fast-paced, and dynamic. You’ll achieve victory through timing, dodging, and quick thinking, not immobile number-crunching. “

Sounds nice, but we are talking here about MMORPG-s, demography in MMO-s are everything between 12-80 years old, '50%' of those players just cant perform good enough in mission critical situation needed to be viable in control/protection part of the combat. On the other hand, those same '50%' can be brilliant on dealing damage or something else. In GW2 there is no way to avoid this if you want to 'achieve victory'.

Anet: “Use your surroundings for maximum effect. Your position on the battlefield is vitally important, as many attacks in Guild Wars 2 reward tactical player movement. “

Here we are again, almost in every of my PUG-s half of the players was not situational aware enough, ok, it was mainly tank/healer job, but what if they hate(unable to perform) this aspect of the combat. As Anet claim, this will be vitally important. Those players will have bad performance in groups and surely they will not like it.

Anet: “Every profession in Guild Wars 2 excels at combat, without exception. Because each profession is so versatile and has such a wide range of skills and powers, it doesn’t matter what mix of professions are on the battlefield. “

“We’re putting the fun back in fantasy combat—join us on the battlefield! “

They will not stop elitism in GW2, it will be introduced even more than in other games, just wait and you'll see. There is no escape for combat weak players, if they make GW2 too easy than majority of those who love dynamic and rewarding combat will hate it. (with tinfoil hat) Maybe this was plan from the beginning to make easy casual theme-park.

I'm not expert on 'human factor' field, I’m speaking only from my experience playing MMO-s. So, pls take my comments in moderation, ty. ;)

I understand your concern regarding the players who may not be up to task with the combat system in GW2 (yellow), but it's hard to make generalized statements based on personal experience (red). There is nothing wrong with speaking from experience, but unfortuantely, its application is thus very limited. As for elitism (blue), I agree, no game is safe, but how do you figure it will happen more in GW2 than in other games? You tell us to wait and see but you provide no reason for it.

Originally posted by BilboDoggins

It wont fail but it wont be the OMFGWTFBBQ success some people here think it will be.

 

The problem with GW2 is that right now everyone is under the impression they are going to be amazing at it and better than everyone else who used to beat them in other MMO's only because they had better gear.

This of course is a delusional thinking and the reality is that the people who were the best at pvp in other games will almost certainly be the best at GW2 pvp and the people here who think they are skilled (but really arent) are gonna get their asses handed to them like always. Many of them will ragequit while the others go onto ANets forums and demand nerfs to everyone else.

 

Its the circle of MMO pvp. And GW2 will be no different.

i forsee number of complains that class X is overpower to double the complaines on the same issue in SW:TOR )))))

The thing about elitism in GW2 is this.. elitism builds always become well known. ANet will jump on these once they become known so elitists will end up being their own worst enemies..

My advise to anyone who wants to be 'elite' is to keep your mouth shut if you want to keep enjoying your awesome build.

Originally posted by cronius77

im not really sure why people find this combat is that hard to get good at . You can spend one or two days trying out different roles and builds and be good at it.  its still a tab targeting system with a ground aoe setup. The only new feature is dodge and that is pretty standard stuff. You have one hotbar so your rotations are smaller then games like wow and rift even swtor, so you should have no issue watching the screen so you can dodge at the right times .

Also I play an elementalist that uses all four elements of the staff and i have a rotation that starts in electrictity goes to earth then to fire then to water. Its pretty simple and in no way more difficult in playing then any other class. Im not sure why people are finding the combat that hard to do . I found Tera combat WAY more difficult to do then GW2 but thats because it was slow and ackward combo attacks. GW2 combat is leagues easier in my opinion.

Yeah that sucks. Not much to learn. 

If game combat becomes too elitist, it is always very risky for a game. EVE got through with it, but only because space combat MMOs are such a special niche itself and there aren't many alternatives. I knew a lot of people who left Vanguard early, because the EQ1-ish difficulty appalled them and they just had no patience for corpse runs anymore.

Sure, there are always those who ask for more difficulty. Usually they seem to be the louder, the fewer they are. An understandable tactics, but a dangerous road for a game company, because we can not set the bar for personal skill of gamers low enough IMVPO. Even we here are by no means representative, but probably a sort of elite. The mass gamer rarely if ever goes to a forum and is relatively easily annoyed and simply quits. I sincerely think many gamers here totally overestimate how patient and pain-resistant 90% of the gamers are. Most try things out once or twice and if it doesn't work, they quit. That's why TSW will always remain a small niche game. That certainly is valid, but it would not work with GW2, which aims for a mass market. Insofar the critique of the OP is valid and very important.

I hope ANet does not listen to this elitists from forums. They are by no means a majority of overall players and it would be highly unwise to listen to an elite gamer group, over the needs and desires of the many, for whom games are no Esports or second job, who don't want to "prove themselves" in a game, but those who see games mainly as escapism to have a good time. GW2 is aimed for a mass audience and must be according to the lowest common denominator in terms of player skills, if it doesn't want to fall into obscurity.

Originally posted by sammandar

Originally posted by Luxthor

I already started thread about trinity stating that nothing essentially is wrong with it except trivialization of the system in later MMO-s. Trinity in the past was rich system with hybrid classes, crowd control, buffing/debuffing, protection, variety types of damage/resistance and so on. Than after mass popularization MMO-s system got dumbed down to the bare basics and left without any substance. All because of human factor from both sides, players and game developers.

Now with GW2 combat, it's nice to see someone finally to take the risk and try to change something in almost broken trinity system. What actually ANet made is MMO with all hybrid classes/professions with slight variation in control/damage/protection including self-heal and avoidance. Hybrid profession is not easy to play, for that reason was always my favorite pick especially those protection/healing types.

What Anet says: “Combat in Guild Wars 2 is flexible, fast-paced, and dynamic. You’ll achieve victory through timing, dodging, and quick thinking, not immobile number-crunching. “

Sounds nice, but we are talking here about MMORPG-s, demography in MMO-s are everything between 12-80 years old, '50%' of those players just cant perform good enough in mission critical situation needed to be viable in control/protection part of the combat. On the other hand, those same '50%' can be brilliant on dealing damage or something else. In GW2 there is no way to avoid this if you want to 'achieve victory'.

Anet: “Use your surroundings for maximum effect. Your position on the battlefield is vitally important, as many attacks in Guild Wars 2 reward tactical player movement. “

Here we are again, almost in every of my PUG-s half of the players was not situational aware enough, ok, it was mainly tank/healer job, but what if they hate(unable to perform) this aspect of the combat. As Anet claim, this will be vitally important. Those players will have bad performance in groups and surely they will not like it.

Anet: “Every profession in Guild Wars 2 excels at combat, without exception. Because each profession is so versatile and has such a wide range of skills and powers, it doesn’t matter what mix of professions are on the battlefield. “

“We’re putting the fun back in fantasy combat—join us on the battlefield! “

They will not stop elitism in GW2, it will be introduced even more than in other games, just wait and you'll see. There is no escape for combat weak players, if they make GW2 too easy than majority of those who love dynamic and rewarding combat will hate it. (with tinfoil hat) Maybe this was plan from the beginning to make easy casual theme-park.

I'm not expert on 'human factor' field, I’m speaking only from my experience playing MMO-s. So, pls take my comments in moderation, ty. ;)

I understand your concern regarding the players who may not be up to task with the combat system in GW2 (yellow), but it's hard to make generalized statements based on personal experience (red). There is nothing wrong with speaking from experience, but unfortuantely, its application is thus very limited. As for elitism (blue), I agree, no game is safe, but how do you figure it will happen more in GW2 than in other games? You tell us to wait and see but you provide no reason for it.

So you can't make observation playing the game, you can't differentiate performance of some players? On the contrary, it's more than enough for my concerns on the topic. I didn't go that deep.

Elitism will be more harsh because those who perform well in combat, have better reflexes (quick fingers) will always be better. This is OK for action game but not for MMO.

Originally posted by Luxthor

I already started thread about trinity stating that nothing essentially is wrong with it except trivialization of the system in later MMO-s. Trinity in the past was rich system with hybrid classes, crowd control, buffing/debuffing, protection, variety types of damage/resistance and so on. Than after mass popularization MMO-s system got dumbed down to the bare basics and left without any substance. All because of human factor from both sides, players and game developers.

 

Now with GW2 combat, it's nice to see someone finally to take the risk and try to change something in almost broken trinity system. What actually ANet made is MMO with all hybrid classes/professions with slight variation in control/damage/protection including self-heal and avoidance. Hybrid profession is not easy to play, for that reason was always my favorite pick especially those protection/healing types.

 

What Anet says: “Combat in Guild Wars 2 is flexible, fast-paced, and dynamic. You’ll achieve victory through timing, dodging, and quick thinking, not immobile number-crunching. “

Sounds nice, but we are talking here about MMORPG-s, demography in MMO-s are everything between 12-80 years old, '50%' of those players just cant perform good enough in mission critical situation needed to be viable in control/protection part of the combat. On the other hand, those same '50%' can be brilliant on dealing damage or something else. In GW2 there is no way to avoid this if you want to 'achieve victory'.

 

Anet: “Use your surroundings for maximum effect. Your position on the battlefield is vitally important, as many attacks in Guild Wars 2 reward tactical player movement. “

Here we are again, almost in every of my PUG-s half of the players was not situational aware enough, ok, it was mainly tank/healer job, but what if they hate(unable to perform) this aspect of the combat. As Anet claim, this will be vitally important. Those players will have bad performance in groups and surely they will not like it.

 

Anet: “Every profession in Guild Wars 2 excels at combat, without exception. Because each profession is so versatile and has such a wide range of skills and powers, it doesn’t matter what mix of professions are on the battlefield. “

“We’re putting the fun back in fantasy combat—join us on the battlefield! “

They will not stop elitism in GW2, it will be introduced even more than in other games, just wait and you'll see. There is no escape for combat weak players, if they make GW2 too easy than majority of those who love dynamic and rewarding combat will hate it. (with tinfoil hat) Maybe this was plan from the beginning to make easy casual theme-park.

 

I'm not expert on 'human factor' field, I’m speaking only from my experience playing MMO-s. So, pls take my comments in moderation, ty. ;)

EDIT: Colored Anet quotation

Um......no?  That's no a "fail", as it's not 100% bad.  Essentailly you're saying that 50% of players from OTHER MMORPGs will not properly fill the combat of this game.   So be it, if they don't like it and can't stand the constant twitchyness of the game then they don't have to play thegame.

And, you are speaking from MMO's standpoint.    Let's talk from FPS, or shoot standpoint.  Those people who hide behind a corner, crawl to the ledge of a cliff to snipe someone, set grenades and mines prior to the enemy showing to preemptively strike....they will flurish in GW2.  Because this combat is that.  Two big reasons why I hear clans fuss about playing MMORPG's:  1) Why pay  monthly to play Online?  2) The combat is boring just standing there swinging a sword until they're dead or standing there in a spot shooting fireballs.      Well, GW2 fixes both those problems by not having a subscription fee and by having attack-while-moving combat.

Overall, I think that GW2 is breaking the mold of those old number-crunching, BORING MMORPGs.  They are instead broadening their audience to those that like twitchy, intersting, fast paced combat.  

Originally posted by Elikal

If game combat becomes too elitist, it is always very risky for a game. EVE got through with it, but only because space combat MMOs are such a special niche itself and there aren't many alternatives. I knew a lot of people who left Vanguard early, because the EQ1-ish difficulty appalled them and they just had no patience for corpse runs anymore.

Sure, there are always those who ask for more difficulty. Usually they seem to be the louder, the fewer they are. An understandable tactics, but a dangerous road for a game company, because we can not set the bar for personal skill of gamers low enough IMVPO. Even we here are by no means representative, but probably a sort of elite. The mass gamer rarely if ever goes to a forum and is relatively easily annoyed and simply quits. I sincerely think many gamers here totally overestimate how patient and pain-resistant 90% of the gamers are. Most try things out once or twice and if it doesn't work, they quit. That's why TSW will always remain a small niche game. That certainly is valid, but it would not work with GW2, which aims for a mass market. Insofar the critique of the OP is valid and very important.

I hope ANet does not listen to this elitists from forums. They are by no means a majority of overall players and it would be highly unwise to listen to an elite gamer group, over the needs and desires of the many, for whom games are no Esports or second job, who don't want to "prove themselves" in a game, but those who see games mainly as escapism to have a good time. GW2 is aimed for a mass audience and must be according to the lowest common denominator in terms of player skills, if it doesn't want to fall into obscurity.

Agree with you.

It's not just about elitism, tbh it's almost impossible to make MMO without it. But for great chunk of players who don't perform well in action combat(reflex based) but perform brilliantly in strategy(brain based), tactic, logistic and so on. Yes, you have strategy in GW2 but it's strictly incorporated with action combat for all professions.

Honestly, this has been my concern from very early on in this game.  The movement based fighting will prevent people from enjoying this game in the numbers that some MMORPG's have sported in the past.  I know of more than a few people that will not be able to play this due to physical ailments and constraints, or might try it and never come back.  One is my wife...her wrists have taken a beating over the years because of work, and slinging a mouse around while keyboarding, etc. is going to be a challenge for her.

However, not every game is made with every consumer in mind.  This is a given.  Hopefully, those that can play and enjoy the game for what it is will be a large enough population to be a win for Anet.

As far as ability in 'mission critical' places.  I believe that Anet has taken this into account for the largest part of the population possible.  The shared loot, XP, etc. requires people to make a minimal effort to recieve some reward.  I'm fairly sure that most will be able to apply enough effort to warrant a reward.  However, those with problems in movement, combat, etc. will probably never play a dungeon...and will probably be aware why they can't.  Most can accept these limitations because they understand their own limitations and those of a group wishing to complete these activities.  As another way to think about it, wouldn't it be wonderful if the 'elite' in the game could play nice enough to help out those that might have problems and help these people through the dungeons..they might have to put forth an extra effort, but isn't that what an elite player wants?

Honestly, I hope they keep a reasonable difficulty curve for this game. What I mean by this is if an encounter is balanced properly, there should be a decent chance of failure for the player. The chance of failure shouldn't be incredibly high but if you make multiple mistakes in the fight, you should probably fail. However, it shouldn't be so punishing where 1 or 2 mistakes doom you.

I understand the need to cater to all skillsets of gamers, but MMO's really do need a game where critical decisions do matter from time to time, and failure to make the correct decisions bites you in the ass. However, the game should be clear as to why you failed so that you can make adjustments for the second try.

Originally posted by bcbully

Originally posted by cronius77

im not really sure why people find this combat is that hard to get good at . You can spend one or two days trying out different roles and builds and be good at it.  its still a tab targeting system with a ground aoe setup. The only new feature is dodge and that is pretty standard stuff. You have one hotbar so your rotations are smaller then games like wow and rift even swtor, so you should have no issue watching the screen so you can dodge at the right times .

Also I play an elementalist that uses all four elements of the staff and i have a rotation that starts in electrictity goes to earth then to fire then to water. Its pretty simple and in no way more difficult in playing then any other class. Im not sure why people are finding the combat that hard to do . I found Tera combat WAY more difficult to do then GW2 but thats because it was slow and ackward combo attacks. GW2 combat is leagues easier in my opinion.

Yeah that sucks. Not much to learn. 

Well on the brightside if someone can't adapt to GW2's combat they can use 1/2 their brain and go play TSW ...

Originally posted by cronius77

im not really sure why people find this combat is that hard to get good at . You can spend one or two days trying out different roles and builds and be good at it.  its still a tab targeting system with a ground aoe setup. The only new feature is dodge and that is pretty standard stuff. You have one hotbar so your rotations are smaller then games like wow and rift even swtor, so you should have no issue watching the screen so you can dodge at the right times .

Also I play an elementalist that uses all four elements of the staff and i have a rotation that starts in electrictity goes to earth then to fire then to water. Its pretty simple and in no way more difficult in playing then any other class. Im not sure why people are finding the combat that hard to do . I found Tera combat WAY more difficult to do then GW2 but thats because it was slow and ackward combo attacks. GW2 combat is leagues easier in my opinion.

In addition to an active dodge skill, many attacks can be avoided by movement. The game does have tab targeting, but most skills can be used with out a target and will hit things in the path/range of the skill, based on your facing. I very rarely tab or click target when playing GW2, but some times it's nice to still have it as an option. Also, often your 1 skill provides very efficient DPS compared to everything but your burst damage skills. Many skills in GW2 are situational, rather than just being basic damage skills that do more damage than your default attack skill for any given weapon.

If you are playing the game by just spamming a set rotation, you are not playing very efficiently. Facerolling through elementalist attunements, as you suggest, will just "get you dead" deeper into the game and isn't efficient at any phase of the game.

I think your post illustrates the point that GW2 combat is fairly easy to get a very basic grasp of, but the learning curve between the basics, adeptness and mastery can be a long one. It seems you aren't even at the point where you understand the possibilities. There is a lot more to learn, but I admit that some will never see the forest beyond the tree in front of them.

Level scaling is a very important feature in this game when considering the learning curve and skill cap for combat in the game. Arenanet can afford to make the game more challenging as you get deeper into the game world, because if someone isn't improving their understanding of combat at the expected pace and hits a wall with at-level content, they can always tackle lower level content instead, while they work on their game play skills.

When you play lower level content in GW2, your effective level gets scaled down, but you earn XP and loot based on your true level. There is so much redundancy of content in the game, even more so in the level 2-25 game, that there will always be plenty of content available for those who need to trail the leveling curve a little in their content selection.

If there was no outlet for people who "hit a wall" due to their combat skills and understanding not being up to par with content matched to their character level, there could be a problem. Luckily, Arenanet has a solution and the game can actually cater to a wide range of player skill, with out having to dumb everything down to match the lowest common denominator.