Originally posted by Aerowyn

Originally posted by Enigmatus

Originally posted by evilastro

What all these posts are about is that people want to make a heavy time investment so they can be innately better than someone who doesn't play the game as much as them. They want to spending weeks and months grinding gear so they can blow up new players in PvP or make them feel inadequate in PvE just so they can feel special about themselves, dispite the gear doing pretty much all the work for them.

Noone wants a challenge anymore, they all want the godmode cheats turned on. Thats why there are so many threads like this. How can anyone possibly have fun by doing challenging PvP and PvE content? Why even bother unless I can be better than everyone who doesn't have the same time investment? This is what it all boils down to, and it is a sad state of affairs.

I was going to post that they wanted the "Infinity Sword of insta kill, grindy treadmills, and everyone else is a whiny noob who deserves nothing and I am a skilled player because I am skilled and not because I have this unfairly powerful weapon" +1000, but I thought it was too insulting.

last game I did this in was Rift and never again.. I grinded warfronts just to finaly get that top rank gear and for what? I can now 3v1 low rankers?  I can wait couple months till they release a new set of ranks to grind some more?  I know it still has an appeal to many as it used ot appeal to me as well but just can't bring myself to play another one of those types of games. Skill, experience and awsome looking cosmetic gear should be reward enough for people in PVP as long as combat is fun and varied.

I got exactly the same feeling from WoW and SWTOR PvP. After you had max tier gear it was just embarrasing how easily you mowed down the enemy. Doing Arenas in WoW pretty much ruined any battleground and overworld PvP for me. My Shadowpriest and Druid were pretty much invincible and that doesn't make for a fun fight.

Its why whenever I need a PvP fix I load up GW1 or LoL. Other MMOs are just about the gear, not the player.

Originally posted by bcbully

Originally posted by Aerowyn

Originally posted by Enigmatus

Originally posted by evilastro

What all these posts are about is that people want to make a heavy time investment so they can be innately better than someone who doesn't play the game as much as them. They want to spending weeks and months grinding gear so they can blow up new players in PvP or make them feel inadequate in PvE just so they can feel special about themselves, dispite the gear doing pretty much all the work for them.

Noone wants a challenge anymore, they all want the godmode cheats turned on. Thats why there are so many threads like this. How can anyone possibly have fun by doing challenging PvP and PvE content? Why even bother unless I can be better than everyone who doesn't have the same time investment? This is what it all boils down to, and it is a sad state of affairs.

I was going to post that they wanted the "Infinity Sword of insta kill, grindy treadmills, and everyone else is a whiny noob who deserves nothing and I am a skilled player because I am skilled and not because I have this unfairly powerful weapon" +1000, but I thought it was too insulting.

last game I did this in was Rift and never again.. I grinded warfronts just to finaly get that top rank gear and for what? I can now 3v1 low rankers?  I can wait couple months till they release a new set of ranks to grind some more?  I know it still has an appeal to many as it used ot appeal to me as well but just can't bring myself to play another one of those types of games. Skill, experience and awsome looking cosmetic gear should be reward enough for people in PVP as long as combat is fun and varied.

There's glory in overcoming the odds and progressing beyond. I don't mind being the underdog because I know I'm good. I've never ever onve said "He beat me because he has better gear." In my eyes that is the ultimate cop out. 

If you want to have a difference in power and overcome the odds, all you gotta do is choose to pvp naked or give yourself a weak build. You can than overcome it and brag about how good you are, and how meaningful your victory was. The game supports you making that choice. You're welcome for the information.

Originally posted by Halandir

I play a realworld game called "marriage". It has endgame with advanced economy and lots of drama. Endgame is called "divorce". I feel quite lucky that the rush to endgame is not high on my agenda.

Game however is both challenging and fun but the sub-fee is a bit steep.

In GW2 I expect to look for the same minus the sub-fee.

 

LMAO I love this post!!!!

Originally posted by colddog04

Originally posted by evilastro

Originally posted by colddog04

Originally posted by evilastro

I think most of the traditional end game - gear treadmill and tiers of gear - can be attributed to Everquest 1 long before Blizzard stole all their ideas and dumbed it down for the general populace. They didn't call it Evercrack for nothing.

I'm not sure if you actually played EQ, but I did. I think you are overstating the prevalence of the "gear treadmill"  and "tiered gear" in at least the early EQ. It really wasn't like that at all when I played.

Not sure how you missed the raid progression. Its why they provided 'progression servers' which unlocked new content and expansions as people cleared the tiered raids.

It took 9 years for them to introduce the first progression server. That was in 2008 I think. It's also after a helluva lot of expansions (like 14 or 15 according to the wiki). The early years of EQ were a lot different than the later years. While raiding existed, the idea that there was "tiered gear" and "gear treadmills" early on isn't really the truth of it.

 

Edit:

 

"Edit: http://www.everquest.com/progression-timeline?sid=156

You can see the tiers of raiding right there. Classic gear treadmill long before WoW was even a glimmer in Blizzards eye."

 

You can see raid bosses. You can see expansions which raised the level cap and once you got to the new level cap you would have to get more gear. But really, they didn't ahve mid expansion updates that made it so you had to grind gear to see content. It was different back then.

There was progression at launch, although it really kicked into gear after the Kurnark expansion (one year after launch).

For the record they introduced Innoruuk and Cazic Thule as raid targets between launch and the first expansion to keep people grinding gear until they launched new content.

Really have no idea what game you were playing if you dont think there were tiers of gear according to zone difficulty and progression.

Originally posted by Aelious
Yes EQ had a gear grind at max level. The difference was the amount to time it took to reach that far and once you were there. You could play for months or years to attain what can be gained in a month or two in WoW or other current end game gear grinders.

Would you consider that a "gear treadmill" though? When I played, I never once though of it like the treadmills of today. I think it just comes to the way I am defining a "gear treadmill" at this point. For one thing, you weren't required to have top gear to do top things in EQ.

Eh... whatever. If early EQ is a gear treadmill then every single game with any gear progression at all has a gear treadmill.

Others "get it" and have said it, but I'll reinforce it by saying it again. In GW2, the entire game is end game!

There are some cool things to access at level 80, like the final 3 Dungeons and Orr, which is a complex, level 80 zone that we've been told contains complex webs of events and meta-events, capture mechanics and provides the feel of a D-day like assault on an Elder Dragon!

However, level scaling ensures that as you level up, more and more of the game becomes viable content for you and this is a game that you are meant to play for fun, rather than viewing the climb to the level cap as a necassary obstacle to overcome before you reach "end game" and start to do something completely different than you did while leveling up.

I managed 129 hours of playtesting between all events and stress tests. I'm stll overwhelmed at how much there is to do in this game, which is amplified by the fact that much of the game wasn't even available to us during those events. I love exploration, world PvE and crafting. I like Dungeons, sPvP and WvW. I love the unparalleled level of immersion this game offers and know that a portion of my time will be spent just being immersed in the game world, taking in the sights, rather than constantly working to progress or accomplish.

I have zero doubt that I will get well over 1,000 hours of play the first year and will enjoy every bit of it! That's a welcome change from my experience with most MMOs the past few years, which rarely have been able to keep me engaged beyond 40-60 hours of play before hitting the "cancel subscription" button.

Originally posted by Aelious
Yes EQ had a gear grind at max level. The difference was the amount to time it took to reach that far and once you were there. You could play for months or years to attain what can be gained in a month or two in WoW or other current end game gear grinders.

It's worth pointing out that EQ also had gear that was still useful and not immediately replacable throughout each expansion.  Most epic weapons introduced in Kunark were superior to the endgame weapons found in Velious and generally at worst a sidegrade in Luclin.  Certain gear was still handy to have during raids  Gear also took longer to obtain and there were generally far more people per raid (average endgame guilds would raid with as many as 60 people) than other MMOs.  If you had all the endgame gear from Velious you weren't completely useless at endgame in say Luclin.  Gear progression did get ridiculous after Planes of Power though and current gen MMOs seemed to have followed suit.

Originally posted by Praetalus
So the question is, will there be people bitching after one month that they have nothing to do like tsw?

I wouldn't think so. TSW went the one trick pony Story route, ala SWTOR. Focusing only on story is doomed to lead to boredom as it has no draw beyond the first playthrough, and it forces constant content updates to keep people around. Not to mention, you are paying a monthly fee for such a limited experience. It is the strength of GW2 that it spread the love across all its systems, it has variety to the content you experience,  and you can take it at your own pace because of the no monthly fee.

Originally posted by Praetalus
So the question is, will there be people bitching after one month that they have nothing to do like tsw?

of course they will... but doubt any will 100% the map do all modes of every dungeon within a month not to mention if they enjoy the PVP.. I think the complaints will be a lot less common than recent MMOs but they will be there.

Originally posted by william0532

Originally posted by bcbully

Originally posted by evilastro

Originally posted by william0532

Originally posted by bcbully

Originally posted by Flex1

Originally posted by otinanai123
You just dinged 80. You don't like leveling alts and want to finally experience GW2's endgame. What will keep you occupied for a whole year until the next expansion?

Im not sure we can accurately answer this stupid question. Right now all we have is word on what the endgame will be by the developers. We dont have solid info the dungeons or ay other special above lvl 80 things to do.

 

What we do know is the obvious:

do PvP in both flavours(pvp and wvw)

repeat or find new events

repeat dungeons of lower levels

grind for:

special weapons

leveling up crafting jobs

titles

be the richest player in the world

etc

These things aren't really endgame... You do these things the whole game.

 

So grind for cosmetic weapons and titles. Like we knew all along.

Their dungeons descriptions on their website sounds exactly like the definition of a raid. So what is GW2 missing should be the question for those that are upset about whatever percieved lack of endgame there is.

 

So, what are you missing from GW2 that you believe should be there for endgame content?(not sarcasm, just curious, cause gw2 sounds like an mmo, like the many before it. I'm only going to give it a try to see if it evokes any sence of playing DAoC, but I'm curious as to what people really think its missing)

What all these posts are about is that people want to make a heavy time investment so they can be innately better than someone who doesn't play the game as much as them. They want to spending weeks and months grinding gear so they can blow up new players in PvP or make them feel inadequate in PvE just so they can feel special about themselves, dispite the gear doing pretty much all the work for them.

Noone wants a challenge anymore, they all want the godmode cheats turned on. Thats why there are so many threads like this. How can anyone possibly have fun by doing challenging PvP and PvE content? Why even bother unless I can be better than everyone who doesn't have the same time investment? This is what it all boils down to, and it is a sad state of affairs.

These type of gamers won the battle for the soul of WoW. Now they heralding GW2 as the one, being built in their image of what a mmorpg should be by design.

 

Time played means nothing. Battles won yeild no power. No fear of someone having something better than you, no matter how little you play or how bad you are. 

 

@ poster above. Raids are about the only thing miissing as far as game play. The orange text explains why.

1. I thought this game didn't have a gear treadmill, so it doesn't seem like GW2 is really being built like WoW at all.

2. I was under the impression that titles, ranks and all the measurements of success where there, just not available for Beta? Am I wrong?

3. Raid, fight through trash mobs, solve a puzzle, kill a boss- dungeon, fight through trash mobs, solve a puzzle, kill a boss repeat. They sound pretty damn similiar in my opinion, except with dungeons you can take some pride in how far your guilds progressed through them? Where as raids have become-I beat normal, hard, and nightmare mode?

1. Those type of gamers don't like raids because they held rewards beyond there grasp for whatever reason. They were the reason there was a 30% buff for  those raids, so that things would not be beyond their reach.  

GW2 said you know what guys, no raids,  everything is withen you reach. If you don't have time or need a little more skill spend some cash on these buffs. Most of all do not worry no one will have better gear than you regaurdless of how skilled and/or how much time they invest. 

This is where GW2 goes beyond WoW. Built this way by design.

3. Fun times with 15 or 16 good friends.

Originally posted by bcbully

These type of gamers won the battle for the soul of WoW. Now they heralding GW2 as the one, being built in their image of what a mmorpg should be by design.

 

Time played means nothing. Battles won yeild no power. No fear of someone having something better than you, no matter how little you play or how bad you are. 

 

@ poster above. Raids are about the only thing miissing as far as game play. The orange text explains why.

Gear will still tell the story.

Who are the pros in sPvP? Look at their gear.

Who took the time end effort to grind out their legendary weapon? Look at their gear.

Where did that awesome armor come from? Running explorable mode dungeons.

The difference is that battles will always we won by skill and teamwork, not by the power of the items that you are using.

It's a question of whether or not the armchair warriors who play 60+ hours a week should be able to steamroll the weekend warriors who have a variety of adult commitments simply by virtue of time spent rather than skill.

Originally posted by bcbully

 

1. Those type of gamers don't like raids because they held rewards beyond there grasp for whatever reason. They were the reason there was a 30% buff for  those raids, so that things would not be beyond their reach.  

 

GW2 said you know what guys, no raids,  everything is withen you reach. If you don't have time or need a little more skill spend some cash on these buffs. Most of all do not worry no one will have better gear than you regaurdless of how skilled and/or how much time they invest. 

 

This is where GW2 goes beyond WoW. Built this way by design.

 

3. Fun times with 15 or 16 good friends.

there are open world bosses which require a lot of people to acomplish in the form of the elder dragons battles like here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RsCRjt8iG4U ( this is early footage BTW but gives you an idea)

this is also a MID level encounter. The level 80 ones are supposed to be even more massive

oh also on the gear thing people will have better and much better looking gear more time invested.. it just won't be overpowering like in other games.

Originally posted by Aerowyn

Originally posted by bcbully

 

There's glory in overcoming the odds and progressing beyond. I don't mind being the underdog because I know I'm good. I've never ever onve said "He beat me because he has better gear." In my eyes that is the ultimate cop out. 

the issue is in most tier based gear progression games its not about overcoming the odds its that you have NO CHANCE in hell of beating a person higher ranked. When Rift was 8 ranks it was pretty much impossible for a Rank 8 to loose to a Rank 5 or below no matter how good the Rank 4 person is because of how huge the gear gap is. I dunno how you could of played games likfe Rift or Wow or any of the others in PVP and not experienced getting destroyed by people way better geared than yourself. How is it the ultimate cop out when you stand no chance no matter how good you are because gear is the largest factor when someones gear is several tiers higher than you.

RIFT was extreme in this sense. A good rank 8 would beat a good rank 4 all the time. A good 4 could beat a bad 8 though. Still there was an extreme gear gap.

It wasn't like that in WoW if you had the entry level pvp gear (not the crafted) you could beat the guy in arena gear. It happend all the time. This is how you climed the ranks.

Those people who said there should not be ratings on pvp weapons because those weapons were why the arena players were beating them. The same people said that wasn't fair because they didn't like arena. These are the same people we are talking about now. The same people who love GW2 because this is how it is by design everyone gets the same stuff regardless.

Originally posted by Badaboom
GW2 doesn't have typical endgame.  It has "all game."

Just as MMORPG's should.  'End Game' grinding is bad design, imho.

Originally posted by bcbully

1. Those type of gamers don't like raids because they held rewards beyond there grasp for whatever reason. They were the reason there was a 30% buff for  those raids, so that things would not be beyond their reach.  

 

GW2 said you know what guys, no raids,  everything is withen you reach. If you don't have time or need a little more skill spend some cash on these buffs. Most of all do not worry no one will have better gear than you regaurdless of how skilled and/or how much time they invest. 

 

This is where GW2 goes beyond WoW. Built this way by design.

 

3. Fun times with 15 or 16 good friends.

It would have been helpful if you had actually tried a BWE, preferably BWE2 when things were correctly tuned, to see that the content is all not WoW LFR quality.

Bad play is not rewarded by success. You can still fail at content. You can still lose a fight, be it PvP or PvE. You do not automatically complete explorable mode dungeons. You don't auto-jump the jumping puzzles. DEs have fail conditions, and later DEs have rather significant consequences for failure.

They removed the gates to content, put it out there in the world so that people could experience it, but did not guarantee success.

All this talk is crap.

What do you do at the end of end game?

End game is just a justification to play a game that isn't fun enough to play on its own merits but you have invested so much in it you can't leave it.

How long a game can retain people is dependant on how good the game is and market alternatives.

People stayed in WoW even without new end game for years (when you add all the time between new content).

GW2 end game will be whatever people do when they have done everything but it still is their favourite game or no other game is as good, just like they did for all other games.

These talks about "end game" are silly - what did people do in WoW for the last year? Apparently some 2 million people left. Other 9 million stayed there doing nothing.

Originally posted by Aerowyn

Originally posted by bcbully

 

1. Those type of gamers don't like raids because they held rewards beyond there grasp for whatever reason. They were the reason there was a 30% buff for  those raids, so that things would not be beyond their reach.  

 

GW2 said you know what guys, no raids,  everything is withen you reach. If you don't have time or need a little more skill spend some cash on these buffs. Most of all do not worry no one will have better gear than you regaurdless of how skilled and/or how much time they invest. 

 

This is where GW2 goes beyond WoW. Built this way by design.

 

3. Fun times with 15 or 16 good friends.

there are open world bosses which require a lot of people to acomplish in the form of the elder dragons battles like here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RsCRjt8iG4U ( this is early footage BTW but gives you an idea)

 

oh also on the gear thing people will have better and much better looking gear more time invested.. it just won't be overpowering like in other games.

Fair enough. OP is subjective.