Originally posted by Aerowyn

Originally posted by C1d0s

everytime? this is going to be a  very situational type of thing. 

Not necessarily.

The game promotes a self-sustaining type of gameplay; therefore, it makes sense for everyone's initial reaction to be going for the heal when downed. Of course, in higher rankings of the arena-esq PVP, more players will be aware of this type of CCing and will work-around.

and if it becomes a major issue I don't see why Anet wouldn't resolve it.. same thing with any PVP type game if something starts getting overabused and causes more frustration than good developers generally remedy it.

And I totally hope something like that does get fixed, if it was unintended. I'm not here to bash the Dev Team, I like Anet.

I'm just here to post my thoughts on the design decision of the "Downed State" and how I believe it isn't as "Complex / Strategic" as people are trying to make it out to be.

Originally posted by C1d0s

Originally posted by Aerowyn

Originally posted by C1d0s

everytime? this is going to be a  very situational type of thing. 

Not necessarily.

The game promotes a self-sustaining type of gameplay; therefore, it makes sense for everyone's initial reaction to be going for the heal when downed. Of course, in higher rankings of the arena-esq PVP, more players will be aware of this type of CCing and will work-around.

and if it becomes a major issue I don't see why Anet wouldn't resolve it.. same thing with any PVP type game if something starts getting overabused and causes more frustration than good developers generally remedy it.

And I totally hope something like that does get fixed, if it was unintended. I'm not here to bash the Dev Team, I like Anet.

I'm just here to post my thoughts on the design decision of the "Downed State" and how I believe it isn't as "Complex / Strategic" as people are trying to make it out to be.

in many ways it's another form of CC. CC is the basis for much of the strategic ways PVP is played. But if CC gets out of hand it also becomes more frustrating than fun. Rift had these issues and struggled through many patches until they finally just added the whole immunity thing. Anet is a good dev team and have been doing PVP for awhile now,  I'm sure if it becomes something that enough people complain about it will get adjusted.

Originally posted by Aerowyn

in many ways it's another form of CC. CC is the basis for much of the strategic ways PVP is played. But if CC gets out of hand it also becomes more frustrating than fun. Rift had these issues and struggled through many patches until they finally just added the whole immunity thing. Anet is a good dev team and have been doing PVP for awhile now,  I'm sure if it becomes something that enough people complain about it will get adjusted.

And that's my point, in a nutshell. 

The design itself is tedious and pointless, as well open for abuse ( if you want to consider the manipulation of the mechanic that, instead of strategy ).

For a game that's all about self-sustaining PVP with little to no CC, it seems counter-productive to impliment a system in which you're forced into becoming a stationary beating post for a duration of time. I can see the obvious intentions of trying to be forgiving with death and allowing better team-play, but it doesn't feel at all necessary to me. 

I'd prefer to die and get it over with. I sincerely doubt simply dying would in any way hinder the PVP, or jeopardize its design.

Originally posted by C1d0s

Originally posted by Aerowyn

in many ways it's another form of CC. CC is the basis for much of the strategic ways PVP is played. But if CC gets out of hand it also becomes more frustrating than fun. Rift had these issues and struggled through many patches until they finally just added the whole immunity thing. Anet is a good dev team and have been doing PVP for awhile now,  I'm sure if it becomes something that enough people complain about it will get adjusted.

And that's my point, in a nutshell. 

The design itself is tedious and pointless, as well open for abuse ( if you want to consider the manipulation of the mechanic that, instead of strategy ).

For a game that's all about self-sustaining PVP with little to no CC, it seems counter-productive to impliment a system in which you're forced into becoming a stationary beating post for a duration of time. I can see the obvious intentions of trying to be forgiving with death and allowing better team-play, but it doesn't feel at all necessary to me. 

I'd prefer to die and get it over with. I sincerely doubt simply dying would in any way hinder the PVP, or jeopardize its design.

Game has a lot of CC and a TON if you play engineer not sure where you got little CC from.

Originally posted by Aerowyn

Originally posted by C1d0s

Originally posted by Aerowyn

in many ways it's another form of CC. CC is the basis for much of the strategic ways PVP is played. But if CC gets out of hand it also becomes more frustrating than fun. Rift had these issues and struggled through many patches until they finally just added the whole immunity thing. Anet is a good dev team and have been doing PVP for awhile now,  I'm sure if it becomes something that enough people complain about it will get adjusted.

And that's my point, in a nutshell. 

The design itself is tedious and pointless, as well open for abuse ( if you want to consider the manipulation of the mechanic that, instead of strategy ).

For a game that's all about self-sustaining PVP with little to no CC, it seems counter-productive to impliment a system in which you're forced into becoming a stationary beating post for a duration of time. I can see the obvious intentions of trying to be forgiving with death and allowing better team-play, but it doesn't feel at all necessary to me. 

I'd prefer to die and get it over with. I sincerely doubt simply dying would in any way hinder the PVP, or jeopardize its design.

Game has a lot of CC and a TON if you play engineer not sure where you got little CC from.

The CC available in GW2 is light in comparison to most other MMOs in the fact that it lasts mere seconds ( 5+ being long ).

Other available games have much longer durations; therefore, I do not consider GW2 to have many conventional CC abilities that would jeopardize anyone for more than a second or so. Which, for the design of the game, works fine as it is normally quite fast-paced.

Originally posted by Aerowyn

Originally posted by C1d0s

Originally posted by Aerowyn

in many ways it's another form of CC. CC is the basis for much of the strategic ways PVP is played. But if CC gets out of hand it also becomes more frustrating than fun. Rift had these issues and struggled through many patches until they finally just added the whole immunity thing. Anet is a good dev team and have been doing PVP for awhile now,  I'm sure if it becomes something that enough people complain about it will get adjusted.

And that's my point, in a nutshell. 

The design itself is tedious and pointless, as well open for abuse ( if you want to consider the manipulation of the mechanic that, instead of strategy ).

For a game that's all about self-sustaining PVP with little to no CC, it seems counter-productive to impliment a system in which you're forced into becoming a stationary beating post for a duration of time. I can see the obvious intentions of trying to be forgiving with death and allowing better team-play, but it doesn't feel at all necessary to me. 

I'd prefer to die and get it over with. I sincerely doubt simply dying would in any way hinder the PVP, or jeopardize its design.

Game has a lot of CC and a TON if you play engineer not sure where you got little CC from.

the CC is very low duration. WoW for example has a lot of 8-10 second CC and DAoC had some insane >1 minute long mezzes and roots (yet somehow they are one of the reasons that made daoc so awesome and unpredictable)

Originally posted by C1d0s

 

The CC available in GW2 is light in comparison to most other MMOs in the fact that it lasts mere seconds ( 5+ being long ).

Other available games have much longer durations; therefore, I do not consider GW2 to have many conventional CC abilities that would jeopardize anyone for more than a second or so. Which, for the design of the game, works fine as it is normally quite fast-paced.

I see yea CC is short which is good because being constantly locked down for long periods of time isn't fun for anyone imho. Thought you meant just number of CC skills as there are quite a few

Originally posted by otinanai123

Originally posted by Meowhead

Originally posted by otinanai123

Imagine how much fun that downed guy would have if teldo wouldn't let him rezz until the game ended. Also the game could be 4v5 until the end.

 ... you have no idea how downed state works, do you?

No wonder why you hate it so much. :)

(Hint:  You can't do what you just said, unless the guy got killed in the last 10 seconds or so before the game ended)

Why not? let him heal up to 95% and then throw a dot on him to stop his healing for like 10 sec. The only way to get out of it is to stop healing up and let yourself die slowly (even more enraging)

You do realize that as you're standing there putting a dot on him every minute or so while he self-heals that you, too, are effectively neutralized as well? So that fun 8-8 becomes a 7-7 as you have your "fun" griefing the player. If you are truly playing competitively this is not an effective strategy. If you are in a random pug and get your jollies this way then so be it.

It's strange, but for someone who keeps claiming that you like this game and are going to play it, you really do seem to hate most of its features.

Originally posted by Derpybird

Originally posted by otinanai123

Originally posted by Meowhead

Originally posted by otinanai123

Imagine how much fun that downed guy would have if teldo wouldn't let him rezz until the game ended. Also the game could be 4v5 until the end.

 ... you have no idea how downed state works, do you?

No wonder why you hate it so much. :)

(Hint:  You can't do what you just said, unless the guy got killed in the last 10 seconds or so before the game ended)

Why not? let him heal up to 95% and then throw a dot on him to stop his healing for like 10 sec. The only way to get out of it is to stop healing up and let yourself die slowly (even more enraging)

You do realize that as you're standing there putting a dot on him every minute or so while he self-heals that you, too, are effectively neutralized as well? So that fun 8-8 becomes a 7-7 as you have your "fun" griefing the player.

It's strange, but for someone who keeps claiming that you like this game and are going to play it, you really do seem to hate most of its features...

good point you are effectivly taking yourself from the battle as well so as I said this is VERY situational to say the least. 

Originally posted by Derpybird

Originally posted by otinanai123

Originally posted by Meowhead

Originally posted by otinanai123

Imagine how much fun that downed guy would have if teldo wouldn't let him rezz until the game ended. Also the game could be 4v5 until the end.

 ... you have no idea how downed state works, do you?

No wonder why you hate it so much. :)

(Hint:  You can't do what you just said, unless the guy got killed in the last 10 seconds or so before the game ended)

Why not? let him heal up to 95% and then throw a dot on him to stop his healing for like 10 sec. The only way to get out of it is to stop healing up and let yourself die slowly (even more enraging)

You do realize that as you're standing there putting a dot on him every minute or so while he self-heals that you, too, are effectively neutralized as well? So that fun 8-8 becomes a 7-7 as you have your "fun" griefing the player. If you are truly playing competitively this is not an effective strategy. If you are in a random pug and get your jollies this way then so be it.

It's strange, but for someone who keeps claiming that you like this game and are going to play it, you really do seem to hate most of its features.

I don't see how that is effectively taking him out of action. Casting a single dot to negate the cast of his heal shouldn't trivialize his contribution to the game, especially considering that, if you play a dot class, it only takes a single key stroke and a tab target to select the downed player and continue to harrass them before moving on to bigger, better things.

As well, regardless of your stance on the topic, it is an effective way to CC someone if they fall into it. Getting your "jollies" would simply be a side-effect of using some of the so-called "strategy" invovled with the downed state.

Originally posted by C1d0s

Originally posted by Derpybird

Originally posted by otinanai123

Originally posted by Meowhead

Originally posted by otinanai123

Imagine how much fun that downed guy would have if teldo wouldn't let him rezz until the game ended. Also the game could be 4v5 until the end.

 ... you have no idea how downed state works, do you?

No wonder why you hate it so much. :)

(Hint:  You can't do what you just said, unless the guy got killed in the last 10 seconds or so before the game ended)

Why not? let him heal up to 95% and then throw a dot on him to stop his healing for like 10 sec. The only way to get out of it is to stop healing up and let yourself die slowly (even more enraging)

You do realize that as you're standing there putting a dot on him every minute or so while he self-heals that you, too, are effectively neutralized as well? So that fun 8-8 becomes a 7-7 as you have your "fun" griefing the player. If you are truly playing competitively this is not an effective strategy. If you are in a random pug and get your jollies this way then so be it.

It's strange, but for someone who keeps claiming that you like this game and are going to play it, you really do seem to hate most of its features.

I don't see how that is effectively taking him out of action. Casting a single dot to negate the cast of his heal shouldn't trivialize his contribution to the game, especially considering that, if you play a dot class, it only takes a single key stroke and a tab target to select the downed player and continue to harrass them before moving on to bigger, better things.

As well, regardless of your stance on the topic, it is an effective way to CC someone if they fall into it. Getting your "jollies" would simply be a side-effect of using some of the so-called "strategy" invovled with the downed state.

you are still required to effectivly "sit" on the target though and you are still assuming they are dumb enough to constantly keep bandaging themself as well. So if the fight is going on elsewhere you are taking both of you out of the fight for that time period.  Just don't see this one being a very big issue overall.

Originally posted by Derpybird

Originally posted by otinanai123

Originally posted by Meowhead

Originally posted by otinanai123

Imagine how much fun that downed guy would have if teldo wouldn't let him rezz until the game ended. Also the game could be 4v5 until the end.

 ... you have no idea how downed state works, do you?

No wonder why you hate it so much. :)

(Hint:  You can't do what you just said, unless the guy got killed in the last 10 seconds or so before the game ended)

Why not? let him heal up to 95% and then throw a dot on him to stop his healing for like 10 sec. The only way to get out of it is to stop healing up and let yourself die slowly (even more enraging)

You do realize that as you're standing there putting a dot on him every minute or so while he self-heals that you, too, are effectively neutralized as well? So that fun 8-8 becomes a 7-7 as you have your "fun" griefing the player. If you are truly playing competitively this is not an effective strategy. If you are in a random pug and get your jollies this way then so be it.

It's strange, but for someone who keeps claiming that you like this game and are going to play it, you really do seem to hate most of its features.

What if I'm controlling a capture point? It's essentially 5v4 then (or 8v7). If someone comes to 1v1 me I can either stomp him quickly or fight the other guy out of range while dotting the downed guy once every ~15 sec (plus if he goes to rezz him I can use that to my advantage as well). If 2 come to 2v1 me then the rest of the map is 4v2 until they kill me (and I can use stability to stomp him just before they down me). And to all that add the frustration I'm causing him and the fun I'm getting from being evil. 

What other features do I hate? I don't even know if I hate the downed state anymore. It opens up so many opportunities for griefing that I'll have fun whether they remove it or not :)

Originally posted by Aerowyn

Originally posted by C1d0s

Originally posted by Derpybird

Originally posted by otinanai123

Originally posted by Meowhead

Originally posted by otinanai123

Imagine how much fun that downed guy would have if teldo wouldn't let him rezz until the game ended. Also the game could be 4v5 until the end.

 ... you have no idea how downed state works, do you?

No wonder why you hate it so much. :)

(Hint:  You can't do what you just said, unless the guy got killed in the last 10 seconds or so before the game ended)

Why not? let him heal up to 95% and then throw a dot on him to stop his healing for like 10 sec. The only way to get out of it is to stop healing up and let yourself die slowly (even more enraging)

You do realize that as you're standing there putting a dot on him every minute or so while he self-heals that you, too, are effectively neutralized as well? So that fun 8-8 becomes a 7-7 as you have your "fun" griefing the player. If you are truly playing competitively this is not an effective strategy. If you are in a random pug and get your jollies this way then so be it.

It's strange, but for someone who keeps claiming that you like this game and are going to play it, you really do seem to hate most of its features.

I don't see how that is effectively taking him out of action. Casting a single dot to negate the cast of his heal shouldn't trivialize his contribution to the game, especially considering that, if you play a dot class, it only takes a single key stroke and a tab target to select the downed player and continue to harrass them before moving on to bigger, better things.

As well, regardless of your stance on the topic, it is an effective way to CC someone if they fall into it. Getting your "jollies" would simply be a side-effect of using some of the so-called "strategy" invovled with the downed state.

you are still required to effectivly "sit" on the target though and you are still assuming they are dumb enough to constantly keep bandaging themself as well. So if the fight is going on elsewhere you are taking both of you out of the fight for that time period.  Just don't see this one being a very big issue overall.

Then I'm glad we agree it's not a very good strategy, save for certain particular situations.

Downed state is.. just that, a boring 'ol downed state.

Originally posted by otinanai123
Take for example  a 4v4 fight. One side wins and they leave all 4 downed. 3 players of the winners leave to cap points and they leave 1 guy to keep the 4 downed dotted and unable to rezz. They will be forced to let themselves die slowly and lose so much time and of course all capture points.

so you are again assuming that many people are that dumb to just keep spamming their downed heals and not just let themselves die? If you don't spam your downed state heal and you are getting a dot from an enemy you are going to die pretty fast.

Originally posted by Aerowyn

Originally posted by C1d0s

Originally posted by Derpybird

Originally posted by otinanai123

Originally posted by Meowhead

Originally posted by otinanai123

Imagine how much fun that downed guy would have if teldo wouldn't let him rezz until the game ended. Also the game could be 4v5 until the end.

 ... you have no idea how downed state works, do you?

No wonder why you hate it so much. :)

(Hint:  You can't do what you just said, unless the guy got killed in the last 10 seconds or so before the game ended)

Why not? let him heal up to 95% and then throw a dot on him to stop his healing for like 10 sec. The only way to get out of it is to stop healing up and let yourself die slowly (even more enraging)

You do realize that as you're standing there putting a dot on him every minute or so while he self-heals that you, too, are effectively neutralized as well? So that fun 8-8 becomes a 7-7 as you have your "fun" griefing the player. If you are truly playing competitively this is not an effective strategy. If you are in a random pug and get your jollies this way then so be it.

It's strange, but for someone who keeps claiming that you like this game and are going to play it, you really do seem to hate most of its features.

I don't see how that is effectively taking him out of action. Casting a single dot to negate the cast of his heal shouldn't trivialize his contribution to the game, especially considering that, if you play a dot class, it only takes a single key stroke and a tab target to select the downed player and continue to harrass them before moving on to bigger, better things.

As well, regardless of your stance on the topic, it is an effective way to CC someone if they fall into it. Getting your "jollies" would simply be a side-effect of using some of the so-called "strategy" invovled with the downed state.

you are still required to effectivly "sit" on the target though and you are still assuming they are dumb enough to constantly keep bandaging themself as well. So if the fight is going on elsewhere you are taking both of you out of the fight for that time period.  Just don't see this one being a very big issue overall.

But you aren't required to sit on a downed target. All you are 'required' to do is pay attention. As others have pointed it it's just another set of options to keep in mind as you're fighting. You can ignore him, you can place some kind of sustained damage on him (either a dot, a pet, a turret, or just shoot at him every few seconds). You could leave him to die while you run off to cap a diff point. There's a lot of options.

The downed player can contribute to a fight by tossing in some variables while he waits to get back up. The alive players have to way finishing him / ressing him, with how vulnerable they will be if they do so, if they expect backup (or if they think the enemy is going to have backup soon), etc.

As a mechanic it really doesn't force any specific strategy on you as a player. Downed players also decay over time, so if they can't heal themselves back up after a short while, they are dead anyway.

Originally posted by Aerowyn

Originally posted by otinanai123
Take for example  a 4v4 fight. One side wins and they leave all 4 downed. 3 players of the winners leave to cap points and they leave 1 guy to keep the 4 downed dotted and unable to rezz. They will be forced to let themselves die slowly and lose so much time and of course all capture points.

so you are again assuming that many people are that dumb to just keep spamming their downed heals and not just let themselves die? If you don't spam your downed state heal and you are getting a dot from an enemy you are going to die pretty fast.

The dot will be casted only when the downed player is healing himself and near 95% or so. If he lets himself die you will let him die.

BTW are saying people will just let themselves die in most cases? How does that add any fun to PvP? How isn't it incredibely frustrating? 

Originally posted by The_Korrigan

This is actually the epitome of contradiction... if anything, the downed state encourages people to take more risks and play more offensively since they still have the chance of being saved by their team mates. It actually rewards agressive play.

Basic logic... really...

You are both right.

Downed state promotes zerging in large groups, but hurts aggressive play for teams at a disadvantage.

Originally posted by Aerowyn

Originally posted by otinanai123
Take for example  a 4v4 fight. One side wins and they leave all 4 downed. 3 players of the winners leave to cap points and they leave 1 guy to keep the 4 downed dotted and unable to rezz. They will be forced to let themselves die slowly and lose so much time and of course all capture points.

so you are again assuming that many people are that dumb to just keep spamming their downed heals and not just let themselves die? If you don't spam your downed state heal and you are getting a dot from an enemy you are going to die pretty fast.

This ^

You'll also find a lot of the more skilled players will weigh death against reviving. If it's faster to just die and respawn, than it is to sit there on your ass, most skilled players will let themselves die. However, as with all skilled games, there are other factors to consider. (i.e. if A necro can get a fear bomb off to delay an enemy from capping a point, that may be worth the extra time on his arse)

Originally posted by aesperus

 

But you aren't required to sit on a downed target. All you are 'required' to do is pay attention. As others have pointed it it's just another set of options to keep in mind as you're fighting. You can ignore him, you can place some kind of sustained damage on him (either a dot, a pet, a turret, or just shoot at him every few seconds). You could leave him to die while you run off to cap a diff point. There's a lot of options.

The downed player can contribute to a fight by tossing in some variables while he waits to get back up. The alive players have to way finishing him / ressing him, with how vulnerable they will be if they do so, if they expect backup (or if they think the enemy is going to have backup soon), etc.

As a mechanic it really doesn't force any specific strategy on you as a player. Downed players also decay over time, so if they can't heal themselves back up after a short while, they are dead anyway.

I realise that I was talking more in the instance we were discussing to effectivly shutdown a player who is spamming their bandage skill while down and you keep a dot on him to keep him in a downed state while the rest of your teams are elsewhere battling.