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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » This genre is dead

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  User Deleted
 
OP  8/03/12 2:28:33 PM#401


Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by kantseeme

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by fischsemmel

Originally posted by Foomerang 100% combat oriented online games. Cash shops come standard. Purely developer driven content. Esport is the name of the game for pvp. Socialization has become automatized.
  Yep :(
Yep :) And Foomerang failed to add .. more diverse game setting. More F2P so there are more games to hop around.
And were wondering why the genre is dying...   i would rather play one game for years then 10 games for A year.
Your have your choice, i have mine. Playing one game for years? It would be boring (for me), even if it is WOW. It is much better to play multiple games, preferably with the same group of friends, but even that, is not so important to me.

 


You haven't played an mmorpg worth playing for years yet ;) Some of us have, and I think thats why we continually plead our case on these forums heh

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20539

8/03/12 2:34:52 PM#402
Originally posted by Foomerang

 


Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by kantseeme

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by fischsemmel

Originally posted by Foomerang 100% combat oriented online games. Cash shops come standard. Purely developer driven content. Esport is the name of the game for pvp. Socialization has become automatized.
  Yep :(
Yep :) And Foomerang failed to add .. more diverse game setting. More F2P so there are more games to hop around.
And were wondering why the genre is dying...   i would rather play one game for years then 10 games for A year.
Your have your choice, i have mine. Playing one game for years? It would be boring (for me), even if it is WOW. It is much better to play multiple games, preferably with the same group of friends, but even that, is not so important to me.

 

 


 

You haven't played an mmorpg worth playing for years yet ;) Some of us have, and I think thats why we continually plead our case on these forums heh

There is none. I started with UO (quite around end of beta .. not a good game), EQ (quit in a year .. too much camping), AC (quit soon), .. LOTRO/DDO/DCUO (good that F2P .. play once in a while).

WOW is the only one i played more than a year .. and i never play only ONE game. Too boring.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20539

8/03/12 2:38:40 PM#403
Originally posted by kantseeme

 

No I wouldn't consider WOW a MMO anymore. FPSs comes from your attention to quick and fast game play. Get in quick and get out fast rinse repeat. This type of game play is common place with Online FPSs such as Halo and Black Ops. And I believe it's this crowd that has "influenced" the MMO genre to change to what we have today.

 How about Rift, AION, DCUO ...? Even if you don't consider them MMOs .. the market do. You don't get to choose the label. FPS? Action RPG is the same quick & fast gameplay .. why not ARPG instead?

This type of gameplay is also common place far back to Diablo 1. And obviously what works should influence MMOs.

The market as of late is catering to your style of game play that's for sure. The market itself is saturated with these Lobby CO-OP types. But more people then you realize are sick and tired of seeing these abominations and are clamoring for a change of the guard if you will.

Sick of? You realize that D3, which is the epitome of this style of gameplay, sold 10M (8.8M without annual pass) in less than 3 months? I think this style is just great and what the market is clamouring for, is more (and not just this .. also LOL type DOTA gameplay).

 

"What's old is new again." Ever hear that statement before? Well if GW2 falls on its face like SWTOR did, then your time in this industry is all but over. ( We will sure as hell see within the first 3 months of launch) Were seeing a lot of sandbox types popping up as of late. EOC, AA, Dayz, War Z, The Repop, WoD and the list grows bigger every day.

We shall see. I know where my money goes.

 

  Xoshua

Novice Member

Joined: 1/12/04
Posts: 126

Fix.It

8/03/12 2:45:30 PM#404

Basically the new age MMO's DERAILED the genre.  The whole point of MMORPG's is MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER not solo everything.  It's so retarded and disheartening to see this genre become derailed from microshops and instances.  I use to think WoW was the culprate behind this but as of lately its just the developers greed and misconception on what a MMORPG should be.

 

FFXI, EQOA, EQ1, DAoC those are MMORPG's.  Your new age stuff is garbage.  Go play a single player game if you want to solo on a MMORPG.  Ah when will we be vindicated?  I'm only a gamer but I'm almost certain if I could get investors and a team of developers to do what I say we could turn this genre around finally.  No instances, no microshops, no F2P!  If you want F2P go read a book, updates aren't free ever.

Time to fix this genre.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20539

8/03/12 2:52:48 PM#405
Originally posted by Xoshua

Basically the new age MMO's DERAILED the genre.  The whole point of MMORPG's is MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER not solo everything.  It's so retarded and disheartening to see this genre become derailed from microshops and instances.  I use to think WoW was the culprate behind this but as of lately its just the developers greed and misconception on what a MMORPG should be.

 

FFXI, EQOA, EQ1, DAoC those are MMORPG's.  Your new age stuff is garbage.  Go play a single player game if you want to solo on a MMORPG.  Ah when will we be vindicated?  I'm only a gamer but I'm almost certain if I could get investors and a team of developers to do what I say we could turn this genre around finally.  No instances, no microshops, no F2P!  If you want F2P go read a book, updates aren't free ever.


"derailed"? You mean "changed". MMO should be a fun GAME first .. and i think the developers are getting it. Camping is not fun. Walking 20 min is not fun. Dead time with only entertainment is chatting is not a game.

I want to be in a small group co-op dungeon. And I do play other games, like D3. But why shouldn't i be playing MMOs if MMOs are providing that to me?

LOL .. you can turn back progress, and turn back the trend? I will believe it when i see it.

No F2P? I bet even WOW will go F2P in 1-2 years.

There is no vindication ... only preferences. If yours are not in-line with the market .. will .. supply & demand always works.

  User Deleted
8/03/12 3:01:41 PM#406
Originally posted by Foomerang

100% combat oriented online games. Cash shops come standard. Purely developer driven content. Esport is the name of the game for pvp. Socialization has become automatized.

If you were to tell me ten years ago that this is what MMORPGS would be like, I would have never even bothered to get involved.

MMO versions of old console games from a decade ago. Thats what we have right now. The irony is that console games today are actually more open and diverse than these so called mmorpgs.

Its a shame. I have faith in indie devs, as always. But the AAA mmo devs have really led the genre astray as of late. I wonder if it will ever get back on track.

I agree.

  bcbully

Elite Member

Joined: 3/03/12
Posts: 7640

8/03/12 3:02:49 PM#407
Originally posted by Foomerang

100% combat oriented online games. Cash shops come standard. Purely developer driven content. Esport is the name of the game for pvp. Socialization has become automatized.

If you were to tell me ten years ago that this is what MMORPGS would be like, I would have never even bothered to get involved.

MMO versions of old console games from a decade ago. Thats what we have right now. The irony is that console games today are actually more open and diverse than these so called mmorpgs.

Its a shame. I have faith in indie devs, as always. But the AAA mmo devs have really led the genre astray as of late. I wonder if it will ever get back on track.

Damn nice post OP.

  kantseeme

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/07/09
Posts: 739

8/03/12 3:08:28 PM#408
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by kantseeme

 

No I wouldn't consider WOW a MMO anymore. FPSs comes from your attention to quick and fast game play. Get in quick and get out fast rinse repeat. This type of game play is common place with Online FPSs such as Halo and Black Ops. And I believe it's this crowd that has "influenced" the MMO genre to change to what we have today.

 How about Rift, AION, DCUO ...? Even if you don't consider them MMOs .. the market do. You don't get to choose the label. FPS? Action RPG is the same quick & fast gameplay .. why not ARPG instead?

This type of gameplay is also common place far back to Diablo 1. And obviously what works should influence MMOs.

Rift, Aion, DCUO... Part of the problem.

As for your Diablo 1... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diablo_%28video_game%29 Check were it says Genre. No where does it say MMORGP

The market as of late is catering to your style of game play that's for sure. The market itself is saturated with these Lobby CO-OP types. But more people then you realize are sick and tired of seeing these abominations and are clamoring for a change of the guard if you will.

Sick of? You realize that D3, which is the epitome of this style of gameplay, sold 10M (8.8M without annual pass) in less than 3 months? I think this style is just great and what the market is clamouring for, is more (and not just this .. also LOL type DOTA gameplay).

 D3 sold on its name and past alone. Brought in those that never even played it but who were riding on the Blizzard name. Oh and let us not forget that after launch, the hoards of people leaving it because of... nothing else to do. And let us not forget that D3 ISENT A MMORPG!

"What's old is new again." Ever hear that statement before? Well if GW2 falls on its face like SWTOR did, then your time in this industry is all but over. ( We will sure as hell see within the first 3 months of launch) Were seeing a lot of sandbox types popping up as of late. EOC, AA, Dayz, War Z, The Repop, WoD and the list grows bigger every day.

We shall see. I know where my money goes.

We shall see and yea we all see where your money goes. Right in the trash.

 

 

  Xoshua

Novice Member

Joined: 1/12/04
Posts: 126

Fix.It

8/03/12 3:11:25 PM#409

We should not have to change our preference if this was OUR genre to begin with!  You guys wanting everything hand fed to you is the reason the market has slipped.  Go get a job if you cant pay for P2P.  Go play D&D in person. 

 

A MMORPG is suppose to be a virtual world.  You say the market has changed, if thats so why does everyone come on these boards and complain about how the genre is dead?  Death SHOULD kill your experience, make you walk for hours because YOU DIED.  Now you die and theres no consequence. 

Walking SHOULD take 20 minutes!  It's a virtual world, when you start and for a long while you SHOULD have to walk for long periods of time.  It will build a sense of accomplishment when you finally DO get to travel faster.

Microshops and F2P fail.  Hard.  P2P is the way the MMORPG needs to be.  Content comes out, that content isn't made for free.  People need to be payed for their work.  Seriously go troll another thread, this thread is how MMORPG's are dieing because people like you try to justify the cancer the new MMO's cause. 

Time to fix this genre.

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

8/03/12 3:20:59 PM#410
Originally posted by bunnyhopper

The whole "forced" argument is a really, really bad one.

 Who gets "forced" to play Tic Tac Toe exactly? Who gets "forced" to play a virtual world game with travel in it as opposed to the myriad of games out there both within the mmorpg genre and without it which offer differing gameplay mechanics and styles?

When I want some e-sport pvp I play an e-sport game. When I fancy an open world pvp fest or fancy exploring a game world, I don't still play an e-sport game and moan about the fact that it is "forcing" me to pvp or sit in a lobby.

 No one is going around making people play games at gun point, at least not that I am aware of. The idea is that people who want to travel and engage with a virtual world, play such games. If someone would rather have zero travel and is not interested in the mechanics that travel drives, great, go play another game.

 Again no, the fact that travel enables deeper gameplay experiences is far from "irrelevant" for the people who, you know, actually enjoy those experiences. Moreover, trying to take travel/the game world out, as opposed to trying to actually improve the game world. Just to appease a crowd completely and utterly against travel in the first place is just total and utter madness.

I guess that means your argument is "Tic Tac Toe is great, even though only a few pl players like it.  I love it!" then there's not much point to trying to explain to you how it's a shallow game (or in the case of travel-heavy MMORPGs, an unavoidable shallow part of a larger game.)

What the hell does e-sport PVP have to do with anything?  We're talking about games, and how to make them more engaging, meaningful, and deep by not allowing a shallow part of the game to drag down the experience.  What have you got against game depth that you try to defend non-gameplay (travel) so vigorously?

It is irrelevant whether travel enables deeper experiences.  Because despite getting those deep experience, you're still locked into this non-interactive, shallow game mechanic.

The simple fix is to make that shallow mechanic deeper.  You're arguing the status quo for its own sake, at the cost of player freedom and better gameplay.

  kantseeme

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/07/09
Posts: 739

8/03/12 3:30:17 PM#411
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Xoshua

Basically the new age MMO's DERAILED the genre.  The whole point of MMORPG's is MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER not solo everything.  It's so retarded and disheartening to see this genre become derailed from microshops and instances.  I use to think WoW was the culprate behind this but as of lately its just the developers greed and misconception on what a MMORPG should be.

 

FFXI, EQOA, EQ1, DAoC those are MMORPG's.  Your new age stuff is garbage.  Go play a single player game if you want to solo on a MMORPG.  Ah when will we be vindicated?  I'm only a gamer but I'm almost certain if I could get investors and a team of developers to do what I say we could turn this genre around finally.  No instances, no microshops, no F2P!  If you want F2P go read a book, updates aren't free ever.


"derailed"? You mean "changed". MMO should be a fun GAME first .. and i think the developers are getting it. Camping is not fun . Walking 20 min is not fun. Dead time with only entertainment is chatting is not a game.

Camp checks were great places to conversate with your fellow gamer. They even had camp checks in Nusibe in VG. Some of the best times i had gaming was talking with others. The devi room in the clock tower in Ragnarok.

Would sit there for hours with people talking and killing devis for a chance at the hat to drop. Travleing was great aswell. Stoping to help others you may see along the road or harvest. Lots of things happen "On the way"

Your problem is you want these CO-OP features in MMOs and they simpley dont belong. Go back to D3 and stay out of MMOs.

I want to be in a small group co-op dungeon. And I do play other games, like D3. But why shouldn't i be playing MMOs if MMOs are providing that to me?

See above

LOL .. you can turn back progress, and turn back the trend? I will believe it when i see it.

You obviously dont know what TREND means.

No F2P? I bet even WOW will go F2P in 1-2 years.

With over 5 mil people still paying 15 a month? I just dont know about your ilk anymore.

There is no vindication ... only preferences. If yours are not in-line with the market .. will .. supply & demand always works.

Your right here. Its about preference. I prefer not to spend my money on these garbage MMOs. Cant even call them MMOs any more. need to find a new name for them. These CO-OP Lobby RPGs? No thats not right. Theres no RPG in these new "MMOs" How about CFRLG? (Co-Op Face Roll Lobby Game) How does that sound?

  Xoshua

Novice Member

Joined: 1/12/04
Posts: 126

Fix.It

8/03/12 3:38:59 PM#412
Originally posted by kantseeme
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Xoshua

Basically the new age MMO's DERAILED the genre.  The whole point of MMORPG's is MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER not solo everything.  It's so retarded and disheartening to see this genre become derailed from microshops and instances.  I use to think WoW was the culprate behind this but as of lately its just the developers greed and misconception on what a MMORPG should be.

 

FFXI, EQOA, EQ1, DAoC those are MMORPG's.  Your new age stuff is garbage.  Go play a single player game if you want to solo on a MMORPG.  Ah when will we be vindicated?  I'm only a gamer but I'm almost certain if I could get investors and a team of developers to do what I say we could turn this genre around finally.  No instances, no microshops, no F2P!  If you want F2P go read a book, updates aren't free ever.


"derailed"? You mean "changed". MMO should be a fun GAME first .. and i think the developers are getting it. Camping is not fun . Walking 20 min is not fun. Dead time with only entertainment is chatting is not a game.

Camp checks were great places to conversate with your fellow gamer. They even had camp checks in Nusibe in VG. Some of the best times i had gaming was talking with others. The devi room in the clock tower in Ragnarok.

Would sit there for hours with people talking and killing devis for a chance at the hat to drop. Travleing was great aswell. Stoping to help others you may see along the road or harvest. Lots of things happen "On the way"

Your problem is you want these CO-OP features in MMOs and they simpley dont belong. Go back to D3 and stay out of MMOs.

I want to be in a small group co-op dungeon. And I do play other games, like D3. But why shouldn't i be playing MMOs if MMOs are providing that to me?

See above

LOL .. you can turn back progress, and turn back the trend? I will believe it when i see it.

You obviously dont know what TREND means.

No F2P? I bet even WOW will go F2P in 1-2 years.

With over 5 mil people still paying 15 a month? I just dont know about your ilk anymore.

There is no vindication ... only preferences. If yours are not in-line with the market .. will .. supply & demand always works.

Your right here. Its about preference. I prefer not to spend my money on these garbage MMOs. Cant even call them MMOs any more. need to find a new name for them. These CO-OP Lobby RPGs? No thats not right. Theres no RPG in these new "MMOs" How about CFRLG? (Co-Op Face Roll Lobby Game) How does that sound?

 

Great minds think alike.  You hit the nail on the head. :)

Time to fix this genre.

  kantseeme

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/07/09
Posts: 739

8/03/12 3:47:32 PM#413
Originally posted by Xoshua

We should not have to change our preference if this was OUR genre to begin with!  You guys wanting everything hand fed to you is the reason the market has slipped.  Go get a job if you cant pay for P2P.  Go play D&D in person. 

 

A MMORPG is suppose to be a virtual world.  You say the market has changed, if thats so why does everyone come on these boards and complain about how the genre is dead?  Death SHOULD kill your experience, make you walk for hours because YOU DIED.  Now you die and theres no consequence. 

Walking SHOULD take 20 minutes!  It's a virtual world, when you start and for a long while you SHOULD have to walk for long periods of time.  It will build a sense of accomplishment when you finally DO get to travel faster.

Microshops and F2P fail.  Hard.  P2P is the way the MMORPG needs to be.  Content comes out, that content isn't made for free.  People need to be payed for their work.  Seriously go troll another thread, this thread is how MMORPG's are dieing because people like you try to justify the cancer the new MMO's cause. 


understand where your coming from. The problem is no one is making this game for us. They jumped on the Blizzard fast track to making money idea and failed horribly. Look at the list of games that have tried to follow the WoW business model and just died 1-3 mouths into its launch.

 

Now that the market is encompassed with these types of MMOs, people are getting tired of it. And sooner or later someone with make a real MMO and the numbers will justify it being part of the MMO market again. And that's when you'll start to see these current MMOs fall from grace. Hell there already falling from grace.

"OMG AC is going to be god's give to MMOs"         No it wasn't

"OMG WAR is going to be god's gift to MMOs"       No it wasn't

"OMG SWTOR is going to be god's gift to MMOs"  No it wasn't

"OMG RIFT is going to be god's gift to MMOs"        No it wasn't

"OMG Aion is going to god's gift to MMOs"             No it wasn't

Any other games come to mind that i left out?

  laokoko

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/14/09
Posts: 1937

8/03/12 4:06:35 PM#414

I like turn based mmorpg.  But no game company makes turn based mmorpg.

They keep catering to the wow clone or even the sandbox people.  There are 10 times more sandbox games than turn based mmorpg.

Do I complain all day on the forum?  NO!  Get a life.  Go play Eve.

  User Deleted
 
OP  8/03/12 4:10:13 PM#415


Originally posted by nariusseldon
There is none. I started with UO (quite around end of beta .. not a good game), EQ (quit in a year .. too much camping), AC (quit soon), .. LOTRO/DDO/DCUO (good that F2P .. play once in a while).

WOW is the only one i played more than a year .. and i never play only ONE game. Too boring.


Well if thats true, then you started playing a genre that you didn't like or really understand and now it has changed into something you've wanted all along: MMO versions of console action/adventure games.

I can definitely see your pov on this topic now.

  User Deleted
 
OP  8/03/12 4:12:45 PM#416


Originally posted by laokoko
I like turn based mmorpg.  But no game company makes turn based mmorpg.

They keep catering to the wow clone or even the sandbox people.  There are 10 times more sandbox games than turn based mmorpg.

Do I complain all day on the forum?  NO!  Get a life.  Go play Eve.


this isnt about sandbox. its about choice of playstyles. you want turn based combat? thats cool. this isnt a thread about having one or the other, its about the more the better. not sure why you're ranting when we're on the same side heh

  Jjix

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/16/12
Posts: 143

8/03/12 4:17:44 PM#417

 FFXI, EQOA, EQ1, DAoC those are MMORPG's.  Your new age stuff is garbage.  Go play a single player game if you want to solo on a MMORPG.  Ah when will we be vindicated?  I'm only a gamer but I'm almost certain if I could get investors and a team of developers to do what I say we could turn this genre around finally.  No instances, no microshops, no F2P!  If you want F2P go read a book, updates aren't free ever.

I hear you completely and I agree with much of what you wrote. Nevertheless, I do not share your sentiments about F2P.  F2P, to my mind, is actually what is going to save this genre.

 

The reason the WoW generation single-player games online took over the industry was because the pay to play model values the casual gamer above the hardcore gamer. Everything became oriented around "casuals" and that is why the genre has become console-gamish. When you have subscription based games, it doesn't matter if you login twice a week or whether you play 15 hours a day, both players are paying the same amount. However, there are a lot more players who will only play part-time than there are full-timers, so these games naturally become oriented toward keeping those players over the hardcore types. 

 

With F2P the duality companies worry about ceases to primarily be between casual and hardcore, but instead becomes between players playing for free, and players who are buying stuff. The free players are just there to give the game life, but the important players are the ones who actually buy stuff -- as far as the company is concerned. And which players buy stuff? The players who are jumping from game to game? No. It is the players who are in love with the game and who invest a lot of their time and energy into it. That doesn't necessarily mean hardcore types, but it certainly is a step in that direction. 

 

You see, with subscription models, companies cater to players who just play a bit now and then, because those are precisely the types of players who won't hurry to endgame disappointment and who will not finish content before new content is released. So everything is about the quick fix, not the epic adventure, because casuals don't have time for epic. Friendships and bonds aren't well established because no one sticks around long enough or logs in at the same times, the community because more impersonal and meanspirited. 

 

In otherwords, subscription models cause developers to prioritize players who only feel lukewarm about the game to begin with. If the players you are primarily listening to are the one's who are already a bit bored, is it any wonder that these games seem a bit boring to the rest of us? We are being pulled into "casuals" players' reality. 

 

But with free2play, companies cater to players who are most interested in the game, players who love the game enough to pay. The percentage of players who actually pay is going to be quite small. Casuals just come and go, they feel no real incentive to pay, they already get their fix without doing so. That means there is a fundamental shift away from people who just feel lukewarm about the game toward players who love it. This is precisely why I expect free2play to result in an explosion of much more interesting games. The niche player becomes all important under the F2P era, no longer the casual, which means a lot of games going after something special, not every game trying to be the next WoW. 

 

The F2P era -- which replaces the WoW era in my opinion -- is really only beginning. Though F2P games have been around for awhile, it usually was an admission of a games failure rather than representing the status quo of the industry. But that is changing, and pay2play is rapidly becoming the minority position, and indeed may even become extinct soon. The brilliance behind free2play is it actually uses the very thing that has been eroding the genre and flips the whole thing on its head. Free2play is fundamentally a result of the "casuals" takeover of the industry, but the result is casuals rapidly decline in importance and more dedicated players return to being the center of the industries attention. 

  Lonestryder

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/02/07
Posts: 168

_______
4 4 4

8/03/12 4:24:00 PM#418
Originally posted by Zorgo
Originally posted by Foomerang

 


Originally posted by nariusseldon
Dead?

 

The market is huge and may still be expanding. Going into a direction you do not like != dead.

In fact, i think it is becoming MORE ALIVE, solving all the old problems (like camping & finding groups with instances & LFD/LFR), while giving a large part of the games to the players for FREE.

It is getting BETTER.


 

the genre is dead. not the market. the business of taking old console game concepts into the mmo space is huge. the genre that attempted to make virtual worlds is dead.

I think this is the distinction here a lot of people are missing. It isn't that the mmorpg market is failing, it is expanding and attracting and making record profit, and the OP is not discounting it.

I have a slightly different way of saying it. It isn't to me that the genre is dead, it is that the genre I was introduced to, is not what we original players or what I believe the original developers ever expected  the genre to evolve into.

The philosophy back then was that as the genre developed, the worlds would become more open, more in depth, more complex. We envisioned EQ without zone lines and more emersive graphics, more ways to draw you into the world, more ways to differentiate your character, more reasons to play at max lvl. More ways to be unique. Many ways to meet challenges - specifically, I don't any of us expected routine rotations or button mashing.

I'm not necessarily even saying more sandboxy - but I think it is pretty obvious that most of the original crowd thought that would be the direction - but instead, more that the current games feel so completely different than the original games. We thought the worlds we would have would be immersive for years, not months.

But what do we have? Well, to me it is more like fast food. Quick, convenient entertainment in small increments. It is a totally different feel than what we originally defined 'mmorpg' to mean.

And don't take that wrong, quick convenient entertainment is still entertaining. But it is the difference between the fun of, let's say a vacation around the world  and a roller coaster. They both can be entertaining, but in totally different ways.

The genre did not evolve as we expected.

One last analogy. If someone had shown me in 1999 the game SW:TOR - I cannot lie, I would have been blown away. I would have been blown away by how far the graphics/tech had come. I'd be blown away at some of the time sinks that went away. I'd have been blown away by how different quest lines had become.

But I don't think if someone asked me in 1999 to describe what TOR was, I wouldn't have said, 'mmorpg'. I would have said it had elements of it. I would have been excited about seeing games like that in the future, but I would have naturally assumed they'd have their own classification like 'online rpg (orpg)' or 'mog (multiplayer online game)'. Because TOR simply doesn't contain the core of how I defined an 'mmorpg' in 1999.

I'm not giving up. I think everyone is recognizing the market is oversturated and running the same formula over and over with a different skin - and continually simplifying these games beyone what we imagined. TOR's maps are the exact opposite of how I believed future mmo landscapes to look. Invisible walls were a necessity pre-1999 - post 1999 we all thought that boat would have sailed.

I still firmly believe that the next, "WoW" is going to be absolutely nothing like the mass of mmorpgs we have today. Maybe it will be like we original players envisioned, I hope so. But maybe it will be something so out of left field, no one saw it coming. But that's the next big hit - I'd put money on it. But you couldn't get me to put money on when it will be released. It could be next year, it could be 10 years from now, but it won't be like what we have now.

So, for me, consider this:

MMORPG's is like one of my long time friends. We grew up together. But now that mmo's have reached puberty, their personality is starting to change. It isn't the friend I had fun with for so many years. Sure we have some laughs now and then. But sometimes, I just want to look my friend squarely in the eye and say,

"Man - you've changed. You are not the mmorpg I used to know. You still have some growing up to do."

Bravo! Outstanding post that I think hits the nail on the head!

  kantseeme

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/07/09
Posts: 739

8/03/12 4:32:08 PM#419
Originally posted by laokoko

I like turn based mmorpg.  But no game company makes turn based mmorpg.

They keep catering to the wow clone or even the sandbox people.  There are 10 times more sandbox games than turn based mmorpg.

Do I complain all day on the forum?  NO!  Get a life.  Go play Eve.

10X more sandbox mmos then theamparks? Do tell.

 

EDIT: Wait a sec. turn based MMORPGs...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turn-based_MMORPG

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_multiplayer_browser_games

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tactical_role-playing_game

This?

Theres more sandbox games then these types? ROFL!!!!!!

  User Deleted
8/03/12 5:11:00 PM#420
Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by bunnyhopper

I guess that means your argument is "Tic Tac Toe is great, even though only a few pl players like it.  I love it!" then there's not much point to trying to explain to you how it's a shallow game (or in the case of travel-heavy MMORPGs, an unavoidable shallow part of a larger game.)

What the hell does e-sport PVP have to do with anything?  We're talking about games, and how to make them more engaging, meaningful, and deep by not allowing a shallow part of the game to drag down the experience.  What have you got against game depth that you try to defend non-gameplay (travel) so vigorously?

It is irrelevant whether travel enables deeper experiences.  Because despite getting those deep experience, you're still locked into this non-interactive, shallow game mechanic.

The simple fix is to make that shallow mechanic deeper.  You're arguing the status quo for its own sake, at the cost of player freedom and better gameplay.

No, what that means is merely that your argument about "forcing" is inherently wrong. Which is also "what the hell" e-sport was mentioned for.

 

What have I got against depth? That's rather an odd thing to say, given this entire time you have been going on about the fact that the deep mechanics travel through a game world can provide "don't count", "don't matter". I actually think depth matters, what you seem to think matters is to be permanently mashing buttons.

 

"it is irrelevant whether travel enables a deeper experience". No it is not irrelevant at all. It is also really rather funny to call it shallow gameplay:

"What are you doing fella?"

"Well i'm walking over to that keep there, some friends are meeting me on the way"

"What walking?!!! You mean you are not bouncing up and down on your head whilst juggling balls?"

"Er no, i'd rather just walk over there thanks"

"Wow thats shallow crap, go watch tv".


As to why am I "defending" travel. Well given I have pointed out it can drive depth and interlinks with mechanics and can't simply be replaced. Given the fact I have pointed out some people enjoy it (however few). Given the fact that I feel it is a complete and utter joke to think it has to be made into some form of minigame and given the fact that I have pointed out that by improving the game world is what is really needed. Then I think it should be pretty obvious why I am "defending" travel through an open, virtual world.

 

Making the game world more dynamic, more interesting, more alive. With the landscape subtly altering, with player cities springing up, with unique and dynamic encounters. People having to pick through the terrain, take cover, look for the next safe route. That is what makes travel through it fun, not "hurr play a quick game of Tetris to increase movement speed to warp factor six".

 

I'm not seeking the status quo at all, I believe that the base mechanics or travel should be kept simple, what should be improved is the game world you travel through and your interactions within it. Not minigames to move.

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