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Star Wars: The Old Republic

Star Wars: The Old Republic 

General Discussion  » Are they fixing the reason people left in the first place?

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175 posts found
  Esquire1980

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/12/07
Posts: 532

8/03/12 10:29:37 AM#61

The deal, in a nutshell is, they are simply not making F2P for the people that left.  BioWare and their NGE Devs expect ANOTHER playerbase to show up, all at the cost of the existing playerbase yet again.

The free player sent 7 day trials were not for people that tried the game once before as if they did it once before your invite didn't work.  The F2P until level 15 was not for the any1 that had the box, subed, and left as I actualy tried it on both the launcher (says this account does not have a subscription) and then tried it by logging into the account section of the forums and that told me that my account was not eligable for the promotion.  They already knew what we thought were the problems with TOR, they knew we are not willing to give them money for the privilage of playing, BioWare is either unwilling or unable to re-make their game into what we want, so they have basicly wrote us off as a "dead player".

Just like the original NGE, they are not making their CHANGES for the existing playerbase or the playerbase they had.  They are making these for the same unspecified playerbase they HOPE to show as with the original NGE, all at the cost of the existing playerbase yet again.  Easy to see really, just look at the TOR forums about all the cancelations of the existing P2P players over F2P.  And like SOE's NGE, they couldn't care less.  They are after another playerbase that will accept their "greatness", be glad about it, and are more than willing to just fork over their hard earned money for the privilage.

This may not be removing 23 different professions and a total combat system CHANGE, but.........., IT IS THE SAME EXACT UNDERLYING CONCEPT as the original NGE.  Their arrogance is the same, we couldn't see their fantastic development so we're simply not worthy of it, it's all the players fault as it surely couldn't be theirs, the game is "great"....., ask us - we'll tell you, and they are now (again) going after yet another playerbase that will.

Once an NGE developer, always an NGE developer, it would seem.  Dallas Dickerson et al has struck again.  And TOR will not "get better" until and unless each and every one of these lead devs are thrown out on their cans.

  Khegobier

Novice Member

Joined: 10/06/11
Posts: 2

8/03/12 10:44:13 AM#62

The answer is: No.  They're not fixing a damn thing.  They're just making it worse with the F2P stuff.

On one hand, the F2P transition is nice because it separates out the game to what it really is: F2P = Single Player KOTOR, while Pay2Play = the actual MMO parts of the game (Ops and PvP, or what goes for what people call PvP in this game which is more like COD:Black Ops with lightsabers).

Problem is there's essentially 8 "content arcs", and once you finish them the game is done.  Endgame is the same as any other MMO, just another gear/tier grind until the next "content" release comes out that you need that gear for just to grind new gear for the next content release.  What's worse is that after finishing maybe two of the class stories, the rest of them are pretty much predicitible, and are really only entertaining and imaginitive through the end of Chapter 1 before they fall off a cliff like the writers got bored or were told to hurry things along.

PvP: Problem is the gear grind is pointless because PvP is meaningless in SWTOR.  The grind itself is excessive and there's absolutely no variety.  Only one thing matters: Expertise.  There's little proper class balance and nothing will ever be done about taking control away from players (it's called Stunwars for a reason).  Respawn wars.

Conversely everything in the game is on rails.  Your hand is held from the point you create your character to the point you decide to delete your account out of boredom because there's nothing left to do.  There's nothing fresh, nothing new, nothing unique.  And the dev team seems to have given up on trying.

Lastly, EA is, of course, going to force any people that supported this game over the past 7 months that decides that having paid $130 (or more) over the course of that time isn't enough, so they're going to lock characters, items, bank slots, etc., and ask you to pay all over again (aka: double-dip) on stuff you've already paid for.  This is a hallmark of MMO transitions going F2P I know, but still, for a failed project like SWTOR EA/Bioware should at least throw it's masses a bone.

  rwyan

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/24/03
Posts: 442

8/03/12 10:52:53 AM#63

I don't know why people give SWtOR such a hard time.  Its not a bad game (sure there were some missteps made by Bioware).  For the most part, the game is solid.  I enjoyed my stay there very much... I just got bored, hence why I left.  This is going to happen when you're relying purely on scripted stories.

 

I recently jumped into to Rift and for me, its like night and day.  The game has opened up so much in regards of things to do.  Its become much more than a linear quest-grinder with a raiding end-game (which is what SWtOR is).  SWtOR needs more opportunities for emergent play (sandboxy experiences) and thats it really.  Allow players to continue the "story" outside the "scripted story".  Raids, instances, battlegrounds will only hold a player's interest for so long. 

 

Ironically, I do believe if SWG and SWtOR had a baby... you'd have an awesome game.

  Sovrath

Elite Member

Joined: 1/06/05
Posts: 17594

8/03/12 10:56:22 AM#64
Originally posted by WhiteLantern
Originally posted by Sovrath
Originally posted by jpnz

Umm.. the number 1 reason people left is because of the '$15 sub fee'.

That's a fact and not 'I don't like XYZ so everyone must hate XYZ!' opinion.

So yeah, EA/BW is fixing the number 1 reason people left SWTOR.

Really? A fact? Amazing.

Well I guess "I'm" the only one who stopped playing because at cap there was little to do. Didn't mind paying the fee I can tell you that.

 

Not the only one, just not one of the majority.

can I see the documentation on that?

  Prankster

Novice Member

Joined: 2/26/04
Posts: 165

People Suck Avoid Them Whenever Possible

8/03/12 11:00:05 AM#65
Originally posted by jpnz

Umm.. the number 1 reason people left is because of the '$15 sub fee'.

That's a fact and not 'I don't like XYZ so everyone must hate XYZ!' opinion.

So yeah, EA/BW is fixing the number 1 reason people left SWTOR.


Well thats half right. I quit because BW's service and lack of endgame content along with a multitude of poor dev decisions and lazy programming was not  worth the sub fee.

Part of the problem is that every game thinks they should be able to charge full price regardless of content, why pay the same money for a product like SWTOR with its relatively small amount of content when you can give that money to another company who can deliver a lot more.

Refugee from UO,EQ,AC,AC2,AO,DAOC,L2,SB,HZ,CoH,PT,EQ2,WoW,VG,SWG,EVE,WAR,DF,MO,AI,GA,LOTRO, SWTOR... Gw2 on Deck

  SysOpPsyche

Novice Member

Joined: 8/25/07
Posts: 103

8/03/12 11:07:40 AM#66

No, It doesn't fix the main problem (though, the financial industry and stock market seem to be).

SWTOR just makes the game seem more attractive and willing to try out despite the criticism by eliminating the apparent risk.

It also justifies and is more in line with reason why SWTOR fails (EA/BW mishandling of game/customers/etc.) because in a free to play they have no obligation to treat players/customers any better than a piece of garbage that just rolls in off the street.

[some of you might be mortified that people are losing their jobs, I'm not. It'll be BETTER for the people that are worth the money they are getting paid since they'll should have no problem getting a job at a better place [good & competent workers are always in demand - though the compensation might not make it apparent] and get rid of a lot of garbage at EA/BW. The Stock market might actually make something I have dreamed of happening since '84 due a personal dispute with EA about some IP and undefined IP laws, that being to see EA DIE, shutdown, buried, burned to the friggin ground, dissappear forever.

Obviously I'm personally biased against EA so take it with a grain of salt.]

  Hurvart

Novice Member

Joined: 11/02/10
Posts: 566

8/03/12 11:20:27 AM#67
Originally posted by WhiteLantern
Originally posted by Sovrath
Originally posted by jpnz

Umm.. the number 1 reason people left is because of the '$15 sub fee'.

That's a fact and not 'I don't like XYZ so everyone must hate XYZ!' opinion.

So yeah, EA/BW is fixing the number 1 reason people left SWTOR.

Really? A fact? Amazing.

Well I guess "I'm" the only one who stopped playing because at cap there was little to do. Didn't mind paying the fee I can tell you that.

 

Not the only one, just not one of the majority.


That is speculation. Where are the facts and evidence? Most people quit because the game is bad long term. It becomes very boring after 1-3 months...

If the game was good and was fun long term people would be happy to pay $15/month. 9 million are playing WoW and after MoP probably more than 10 million again.

People dont like the F2P/P2W business model. A good, very successful and popular game will be more profitable being P2P. Only very bad games that are losing subscribers every month will go F2P.

 

  GoldenArrow

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/09/08
Posts: 1141

8/03/12 11:22:47 AM#68

Going F2P doesn't make the game any better.

Bad game is bad, no matter what's the payment method.

  DeaconX

Novice Member

Joined: 2/08/05
Posts: 3075

Stand up for what you believe; Even if you stand alone.
-==X==-
SHH, my COMMON SENSE is tingling!

8/03/12 11:31:13 AM#69

I would say no – and there’s no fixing why people didn't stay with SWTOR because it stems to the initial design of the game.

I myself and about 20 people I know left didn't leave because SWTOR isn’t a decent Star Wars game… it’s because it’s not the Star Wars MMORPG we were looking for.  It is as BioWare put it, KOTOR 3-9.

A fundamental design flaw, in my opinion, was when they failed to realize that Star Wars fans don’t just want to play another (mostly) single player Star Wars adventure, they want to LIVE in the Star Wars setting.  People are so enamored with this IP they want to be a part of it.  If you can manage to blend the strong story content BioWare is known for, with enough player freedom to allow everyone to really define their own characters and roles in the galaxy, you’d have a huge winner.  Theme Park + Sandbox hybrid.


Why do I write, create, fantasize, dream and daydream about other worlds? Because I hate what humanity does with this one.

BOYCOTTING EA / ORIGIN going forward.

  skamper

Novice Member

Joined: 7/27/05
Posts: 253

 
OP  8/03/12 1:39:51 PM#70

OP here and the recent blizzard quarterly results enforces my theory even more. Blizzard lost 1.1mil subs because of the lack of content and quality of content in the game. If SWTOR does nothing to improve on the content, yet focuses on grabbing new players soley (just like WoW) and not retaining them, it can not sustain itself. How can EA/BioWare not realize this? Is it a lack of funding thing to rehire developers to polish and add content?

 

Also, John Smedley of SOE (yes the same Smedley that ruined SWG) was on Reddit earlier doing an AMA and basically confessed to screwing up SWG and making it too much like the competition. He said the realize their mistakes. They want to make more games initially free to play (like Planetside 2).

 

I think it sums up to this and all developers need to realizes this from the indie to the AAA devs. You must balance bringing in new players AND retaining your old players. If there's an inbalance between those, you will FAIL.

  Esquire1980

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/12/07
Posts: 532

8/03/12 4:17:50 PM#71
Originally posted by skamper

OP here and the recent blizzard quarterly results enforces my theory even more. Blizzard lost 1.1mil subs because of the lack of content and quality of content in the game. If SWTOR does nothing to improve on the content, yet focuses on grabbing new players soley (just like WoW) and not retaining them, it can not sustain itself. How can EA/BioWare not realize this? Is it a lack of funding thing to rehire developers to polish and add content?

 

Also, John Smedley of SOE (yes the same Smedley that ruined SWG) was on Reddit earlier doing an AMA and basically confessed to screwing up SWG and making it too much like the competition. He said the realize their mistakes. They want to make more games initially free to play (like Planetside 2).

 

I think it sums up to this and all developers need to realizes this from the indie to the AAA devs. You must balance bringing in new players AND retaining your old players. If there's an inbalance between those, you will FAIL.

And Smed doesn't quite "get it" either, to be honest.  I actualy believe he figured it out about CHANGING an existing game on a playerbase as T2 and Hjal showed him the way to operate a game with an existing playerbase.  And believe it or not, SWG was actualy gaining some subs due to that.  SOE San Diego couldn't quite figure out why but T2 sure did.

However, Smed is big on F2P now.  Personaly, I still believe that 15 per/mo sub fee is very miniscule amount to pay for a game that people actualy want to play.  Even 15 per/mo, per account with only 2 toons on a server each, is within the limits for some.  Wife and I had 9 accounts to SWG between the 2 of us for quite some time.  The problem comes when there is no creativity in development, everything is a "clone of WoW"  (put that in there for the MMORPG.com mod that writes blogs), the game has no end game, no social quality what-so-ever, no player dependancys/player interactions of any sort, crafting is 2nd rate to the "rare drop" and is basicly another vendor (hand in this, get that), all gameplay is set on rails, PVP has a stat that gates players from even trying that form of gameplay, 4 toolbars of worthless specials except for CC Wars, and just about every other reason that people have already posted of the complete and utter failure of TOR to retain subs.

  Marcus-

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/28/06
Posts: 970

8/03/12 4:25:06 PM#72
Originally posted by jpnz

Umm.. the number 1 reason people left is because of the '$15 sub fee'.

That's a fact and not 'I don't like XYZ so everyone must hate XYZ!' opinion.

So yeah, EA/BW is fixing the number 1 reason people left SWTOR.

 I left because other than the personal story, its a pretty below average MMO.

 

When the personal story ended I saw no reason to keep my sub. Making it F2P isn't going to change much for me at all, its still below average (imo).

  Gdemami

Elite Member

Joined: 9/23/08
Posts: 7481

8/03/12 4:42:24 PM#73


Originally posted by skamper

If SWTOR does nothing to improve on the content, yet focuses on grabbing new players soley (just like WoW) and not retaining them, it can not sustain itself.

Are you sure that WoW is a right example of how to "fail"?

  jacklo

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/29/09
Posts: 583

8/03/12 4:55:28 PM#74

Can we get something straight.

The quote about 40% not liking the sub fee is marketing bullshit.

People don't buy a game with a sub, to then stop playing it because it has a sub.

Don't show your stupidity by falling for this crap.

  skamper

Novice Member

Joined: 7/27/05
Posts: 253

 
OP  8/03/12 6:24:21 PM#75
Originally posted by jacklo

Can we get something straight.

The quote about 40% not liking the sub fee is marketing bullshit.

People don't buy a game with a sub, to then stop playing it because it has a sub.

Don't show your stupidity by falling for this crap.

Exactly. I thought that was dumb. If the game was good, I would not mind paying for a sub. I don't care if it's there or not.

  skamper

Novice Member

Joined: 7/27/05
Posts: 253

 
OP  8/03/12 6:31:19 PM#76
Originally posted by Gdemami

 


Originally posted by skamper

If SWTOR does nothing to improve on the content, yet focuses on grabbing new players soley (just like WoW) and not retaining them, it can not sustain itself.

 

Are you sure that WoW is a right example of how to "fail"?


WoW has not failed in an overall sense, but in a more recent term you can see their focus on bringing in news players versus creating quality content to retain their playerbase has caused their numbers to decline. One of their key points today was that they are losing numbers because people are waiting for expansion. Well that's bullshit. People should have enough content in the game to hold them over. My point being that SWTOR is making the same mistake and trying to bring new people in, rather than keep who they have and bring back the people who actually already paid.

 

Free does not guarantee those people will even pay.  They are not addressing why people left, and those people who join when it is free, will just leave like the rest (and have more reason to do so).

 

https://www.google.com/finance?client=ob&q=NASDAQ:EA

 

Look at their overall YTD. They are not doing it right, and they need to fire who is there and hire people who aren't stupid.

  Gdemami

Elite Member

Joined: 9/23/08
Posts: 7481

8/03/12 6:34:33 PM#77


Originally posted by skamper

Exactly. I thought that was dumb. If the game was good, I would not mind paying for a sub. I don't care if it's there or not.

You are missing the point.

They are focusing on people that did buy the game but then found out that they like the game but do not find the game worthy a monthly subscription.

Considering F2P trend driving the market these days, it is not surprising that SWTOR users compare the game to other games that have no monthly fee - why paying for SWTOR subscription if I can play similar game without a monthly fee?

  Gdemami

Elite Member

Joined: 9/23/08
Posts: 7481

8/03/12 6:37:51 PM#78


Originally posted by skamper

WoW has not failed in an overall sense, but in a more recent term you can see their focus on bringing in news players versus creating quality content to retain their playerbase has caused their numbers to decline.

Since I doubt you have any data regarding customer acquisition, retention, average user profile and life span, etc. .. I am wondering what you base your conclusion on?

  skamper

Novice Member

Joined: 7/27/05
Posts: 253

 
OP  8/03/12 6:37:51 PM#79
Originally posted by Gdemami

 


Originally posted by skamper

Exactly. I thought that was dumb. If the game was good, I would not mind paying for a sub. I don't care if it's there or not.

 

You are missing the point.

They are focusing on people that did buy the game but then found out that they like the game but do not find the game worthy a monthly subscription.

Considering F2P trend driving the market these days, it is not surprising that SWTOR users compare the game to other games that have no monthly fee - why paying for SWTOR subscription if I can play similar game without a monthly fee?


I fully understand the point. You have the correlation wrong. People are not paying because you have to pay. They are not paying because the game is not fun. If the game was fun, they would pay.

 

Most people might log on and check it out, but they will most likely not pay and resub (if they do not fix and improve).

 

Simple as that.

  MMOSavant

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/14/12
Posts: 177

8/03/12 6:37:59 PM#80
Originally posted by skamper
Originally posted by jacklo

Can we get something straight.

The quote about 40% not liking the sub fee is marketing bullshit.

People don't buy a game with a sub, to then stop playing it because it has a sub.

Don't show your stupidity by falling for this crap.

Exactly. I thought that was dumb. If the game was good, I would not mind paying for a sub. I don't care if it's there or not.

 

Spot on. On another thread on here there's a suggestion that ToR was probably going F2P even with a healthy sub base. I doubt that very much. If I enjoy a game i'm happy to pay a sub for years, I did with UO and EQ and others. Subs drop because games cannot hold player interest, because most of them go off and sub somewhere else, or they go off and spend the money they would have used for the sub in the cash shop of a F2P game (I do).

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