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8/02/12 1:57:01 PM#21
Originally posted by Hrimnir Uh, you do realize that Arenanet didn't actually write the title of the article, right? Right? Also, it's pretty obvious to almost anybody looking at the MMORPG market that the box and sub model is declining and definitely not doing as well as it used to, with the single exception of World of Warcraft. If you actually read the article and take into account that it was the article writer who picked the title, there's no 'Our ideas are so awesome and etc' thing thing on. It reads more like an observation of current market trends if you don't go into the article with your forehead vein pre-throbbing. :) |
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8/02/12 2:00:41 PM#22
Originally posted by Hrimnir WoW is doing pretty good. EvE is growing. RIFT seems to be alright they way they are STILL pushing out content, and so far people seem pretty happy paying 14ish a month for TSW.
Repopulation next year TESO aswell, I don't think either will be f2p or b2p. When I heard PS2 was going to be f2p I lost all intrest. DamonVile- Games built for disposable players are now apparently built by disposable employees. |
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8/02/12 2:08:54 PM#23
Originally posted by Meowhead Fair enough point on the title, i'll let the death rattle part slide. That still doesnt account for the other DIRECT quotes and the general overall tone of the guy in the interview. Sorry, but that little bit about the title changtes nothing. And yes, i read the article, 4 times now as a matter of fact to make sure i didnt miss anything. You are right that it reads like an observation of the current market trends... from the point of a narcissist blowhard.
Maybe i have too much forehead vein throbbage as youve said. But Im just tired of it, these developers need to start reading some interviews or articles where they talk to people like Scott Hartsman from Trion. Maybe then they'll get an idea of how to conduct themselves. "The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently." - Friedrich Nietzsche |
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8/02/12 2:45:45 PM#24
Amazes me to see how some devs think players are so stupid and retarded that cannot think on their own. Player base on all these games have plenty of people who can dance around these devs like a million times, because you develop a game doesn't make you smarter than the players. |
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Originally posted by Hrimnir I think you just need to calm down, you are reading way too much into what you think hes trying to portray. All he is pointing out are the current factual market trends.
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8/02/12 3:03:10 PM#26
Originally posted by Hrimnir I don't know what you've read. I've read it a couple of times, and to me it just seemed Chris Lye is more cautious than anything else. And he is right. There are only a few games subscription games that will experience real market success. In the article he acknowledges that there are games that do experience success with the model, a la WoW. He doesn't straight up say P2P model won't work. He just says businesses should reconsider a P2P model and truly decide if that's the best approach. And he is right. Not many games can achieve the success WoW did. RIFT is doing good, but the developers push out content updates very frequently, and is again, one of the rare successes. Same with Eve, but Eve (much like GW1) has a very loyal following. He's not necessarily saying a B2P approach or a F2P approach is the best approach, but that it may be a better approach with current market trends. And he's also right, by going the F2P route or B2P route, you have to be very careful you don't alienate some of the players. And he's right, who knows how the GW2 community is going to turn out. Again, it's just being cautious based off of past trends. He's hoping that GW2 will have a positive and helpful community, but he acknowledges that GW2 may attract a negative crowd. Then he goes on to say that the CMs are going to be working to ensure that the community is positive and helpful.
Also I should mention that The Verge has a tendency to take things out of context, and try to make things sound as controversial as possible for more clicks.
Yeah when you take bits and pieces of the article, it can sound terrible. However, looking at everything context (around the parts where author of the article interjects points), the article is mostly cautious and the words appear carefully chosen. |
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8/02/12 3:15:46 PM#27
First off, don't get me wrong, I LOVE GW2. That said... I'll be honest. I think that most marketing folks really have no clue about what makes players want one game over another...i.e. the market. This guy in particular seems to attribute everything to the business model. He says that people are leaving WoW because they are tired of paying the sub. Uh no. People are leaving WoW because the game is eight years old, and they are tired of it. I really don't think that some dude that has played WoW for 5 years, is just going to say..."you know, I LOVE this game...but $15 a month is just too much." The reason that F2P games have been doing so well is because players are tired of the same old crap, over and over again, and the only way they are willing to play it is if it's free. I honestly believe that if a game of amazing quality (i.e. GW2) came out and asked for a sub...tons of people would jump on. Just look at SWTOR...it got over 2 million people initially, it just couldn't hold them because it had no staying power.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob? |
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8/02/12 3:22:11 PM#28
Originally posted by The_Korrigan I'm afraid the GW2 community will make WoW's barrens chat look like a discussion between highly qualified rocket scientists. Early on GW1 often did; at least in between the gold-seller spam. :P But the same complaint applies to every new game, and many old ones, doesn't it? |
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8/02/12 3:25:18 PM#29
Originally posted by Creslin321 For devs and future devs, read what he said ^^ |
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8/02/12 3:25:33 PM#30
Originally posted by Meowhead The sub model is doing about as good as it's always done, WOW is and will always be the exception or anomaly. There aren't many games in the west that have used the traditional western sub model that have held greater than 300k subs over the long term in the west. For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson If you can't argue the point don't say anything at all. |
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8/02/12 3:28:20 PM#31
Originally posted by bcbully You have missed some nice games and probably played some crappy ones too.
Generalizations are NEVER true.  "You can fool some of the people all the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you cannot fool all of the people all the time." Abraham Lincoln |
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8/02/12 3:31:29 PM#32
Originally posted by Distopia western sub model that have held greater than 300k subs over the long term in the west. Without bothering to check the charts, it should be obvious how easy it is to make the data fit the hypothesis, just by moving the goalposts of "long term". |
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Originally posted by bcbully You are right, that was a horrible generalization in my part. But we can agree your statement was a horrible genralization also.
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8/02/12 3:37:32 PM#34
Originally posted by Icewhite I'd say anything over 2 years; there may have been a few sure, maybe EQ as an example or UO. However all in all most games haven't reached say 500k in a 2 year retention cycle.The idea that subs reach the millions was more or less a one time thing, so while I may not be 100% accurate on percentages of the numbers. It's safe to say subs have always been in the ballbark they're in now, for most sub based titles. It's hard to account for the east when it comes to what constitues a sub, so I'm speaking on western terms here. For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson If you can't argue the point don't say anything at all. |
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8/02/12 3:44:08 PM#35
Originally posted by Distopia 200k for > 2 years...I count 7 games before 2011, west only. 300k, 4 games. 500k uh, still 4, I think. You already moved the "subs" goalpost once :P No real point to this, except arguments over subs and success tend to end with the author setting his criteria whereever he needs to, to "win", Mostly, it just proves gamers' proven ability to manipulate statistics. All of our data is suspect anyway, and that inevitably enters the conversation at some point, too. |
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8/02/12 4:01:30 PM#36
Originally posted by cloud8521 It's not necessarily 60$ and paying for a game that's out is easier than paying for a game that's not. Imagine being 13 and asking your parents to buy you a video game that's not even out yet. |
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8/02/12 4:05:56 PM#37
Originally posted by terrant Mostly that was those people who couldn't understand why it seemed that GW2 was so grindy, they were chatting while they stood in the same place and attacked the same mob over and over and wondered why they didn't hit level 80 yet. sorry couldn't resist. :) It is a fine article tho, love the part about building a better community with your fans.
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8/02/12 4:23:18 PM#38
I really don't feel there's any hubris in this article. Let's take a look at the recent trend of major titles MMOs. Almost all of them have gone free to play. They simply can't dent WoW's base enough to maintain a solid subscription base. We've seen it with every MMO release. When you have a huge customer base invested in a game for 5+ years, they aren't going to jump ship for a game they know nothing about and that carries the subscription barrier. Additionally, we've seen the increase profitability of Turbine's games since their conversion. Unfortunately, I believe the quality decreased, especially for LoTRO. Regarding the comments about customer base - he's absolutely right. Any large influx of players to an existing community is going to cause a culture clash. Eventually things may settle down, but without the price barrier, young clients can enter the game more easily. Personally, I don't need Guild Wars 2 to be liked by everyone. I want the community to be enjoyable and helpful, not crowded and belligerant players who don't play together. I was happy to see them acknowledge that microtransactions are not universally accepted or used by players and that that difference must be respected in the game design.  |
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8/02/12 4:23:53 PM#39
Nothing new. Manager promoting themself(B2P model) to make more money. I hope everyone realize B2P model is just another way to say if we make our product cheaper we can offset by having more customer. But the reality is even if guild wars sell 6 million copies, it's income is probably not that different to what swtor have already made in 6 month. But I do hope B2P success and I do love it. And in the long run I think Guild Wars 2 will make more money than those AAA sub game. But that's mainly due to them keep selling DLC and cashshop item.
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8/02/12 4:56:26 PM#40
Is it surprising that they would speak positively about the model they chose for their game? I get the tone might incite those that like sub models but it's no surprise that with so many quality games going F2P, or some model of, subscriptions aren't looking as probable for new games. Yes, certain games will be able to hold a sub but I don't see it as much for future ones unless they are blockbusters. I think GW2 could get away with one if they wanted to but they obviously won't.
Also, I know this article is disjointed having quotes mix with commentary but before ranting about them make sure you've read the context. The quotes towards the end are referring to the possible audience the game may have, not it's business model. Dear developers, In my humble and inexperienced opinion if I can get through all the content you spent the last 5+ years working on within 6 months you have not done your work justice. Please give me, and everyone else, some tools to create our own content from what you have made so I can stay in your world and appreciate it longer than three weeks before I say "meh". It's a shame and I'd rather not do that to something you put so much of yourself in to. |
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