Originally posted by Fusion

The reason behind the argument is lazy people that want things "NOW" that got pampered with WoW style of doing things solo, now, instantly.

Arguments like "family, job, etc" are just that.. if you don't have alot of time outside family and work, games should be the least of your worries, specially MMORPG's which were meant to be time consuming (a world within a world), they weren't originally meant for people with very limited "free time", they were meant for the hardcore gamers that wanted to spend alot of time in a fantasy world. They weren't meant for instant gratification either. Just like old PnP games like DnD, Cyberpunk, Twilight 2000, you couldn't possibly accomplish anything in a session of 2 hours..

No one ever cried about the trinity in EQ, some had gripes about finding groups, but at that time, it was part of the experience, finding the group.

It's just that the current generation of "gamers" has been brought up with everything in their hand or reach. The impatience is blinding.

They're meant for whoever is willing to pay to play/buy them. By your argument, I don't deserve to play an MMO as I have a wife, child and a good job. I don't deserve to jump into a fantasy world and get away from the pressues of work and family. I don't deserve to have fun with friends online as I only have an hour to devote as opposed to 40 hours a week.  This is one of the more ridiculous things I've ever read and an insult to gaming. Games are for everyone, not just basement dwelling hardcore neck-beards. Though, they can play too...LOL

Originally posted by gieger808

I think RPG lovers and those who crave immersion like the trinity. Those that like more action-y games don't.

 

The role my character has in the trinity partly defines him. Adds to his uniqueness.

 

So again, its the difference between those who like mmorpg's and those who like action mmo's.

 

I don't think it should  be an "argument" between the two. It's two different type of games. Two different types of players.

Very valid points dear sir.

In a game where trinity is gone, there won't be alot of uniqueness in character (par the visible stuff), where as a specified class a gamers can either shine (and be invited to groups before others of the same class) or blow (a time for a reroll)

If you suck, you suck, maybe it's not the game for you.

I dont recall ever watching Lord of the Rings or any other blockbuster fantasy movie and see the holy trinity.  Until Peter Jackson utilyzes the Trinity when making movies then count me not impressed when gaming studios use it.

Originally posted by Fusion

Time is exactly the point 99% of times when talking about trinity.... "the time to get the groups together" the other 1% is people wanting to do everything with 1 character.

You could have read my first post, but fine.

Yeah, a lot of people are whinning about time but it is far less than 99%.

In fact most people I know that dislike the trinity does it because it makes mobs stupid, combat easier and more predictable and all trinity MMOs more or less feel just the same.

Originally posted by Praetalus

Originally posted by Fusion

The reason behind the argument is lazy people that want things "NOW" that got pampered with WoW style of doing things solo, now, instantly.

Arguments like "family, job, etc" are just that.. if you don't have alot of time outside family and work, games should be the least of your worries, specially MMORPG's which were meant to be time consuming (a world within a world), they weren't originally meant for people with very limited "free time", they were meant for the hardcore gamers that wanted to spend alot of time in a fantasy world. They weren't meant for instant gratification either. Just like old PnP games like DnD, Cyberpunk, Twilight 2000, you couldn't possibly accomplish anything in a session of 2 hours..

No one ever cried about the trinity in EQ, some had gripes about finding groups, but at that time, it was part of the experience, finding the group.

It's just that the current generation of "gamers" has been brought up with everything in their hand or reach. The impatience is blinding.

They're meant for whoever is willing to pay to play/buy them. By your argument, I don't deserve to play an MMO as I have a wife, child and a good job. I don't deserve to jump into a fantasy world and get away from the pressues of work and family. I don't deserve to have fun with friends online as I only have an hour to devote as opposed to 40 hours a week.  This is one of the more ridiculous things I've ever read and an insult to gaming. Games are for everyone, not just basement dwelling hardcore neck-beards. Though, they can play too...LOL

 

Ofcourse you do "deserve" to play them, but you also have to bare in mind that the games that aren't meant to be instant gratification arent that, thusly i consider you don't have the right to complain about it either.

If i know before i get a game that i might not have the time to put into it, i won't buy it, but i wont cry about it being such a game either.

Originally posted by Loke666

Originally posted by Fusion

Time is exactly the point 99% of times when talking about trinity.... "the time to get the groups together" the other 1% is people wanting to do everything with 1 character.

You could have read my first post, but fine.

Yeah, a lot of people are whinning about time but it is far less than 99%.

In fact most people I know that dislike the trinity does it because it makes mobs stupid, combat easier and more predictable and all trinity MMOs more or less feel just the same.

Trinity = organized and predictable combat (SWTOR, WoW fex.)

Non-trinity = unorganized chaos (GW2 dungeons "1 kites, rest nuke, aggro change, rinse repeat")

Only a matter of time when the latter becomes the same "topic of hatred", it's new now, like EQ was back in the day, but you just wait and see

So after the latter has been crucified, whats next? i don't really see other ways of doing MMORPG's to ve realistic :D

main arguments against holy trinity

1) force players to LFG - preparing to have fun instead of having fun

2) force players to have fixed roles (thats the holy part).

3) makes players play different games- healers plays whack a mole, tanks maintain high threat and so on

4) makes for a long stale boring combat where most skills are rotated in same sequense again and again

5) reduce the roles of  control, damage and support to the most simple forms possible. Threat is a simple subclass of controll that can be so much more, healing is a subclass of support that can be so much more, and dps is simply all what damage comes down to when locked in the holy trinity setup. 

6) is often used to set up challange based on the lvl of your equipment and not your personal skills. (gear grind)

7) does often make players play the UI and not the game !

8) makes the AI ridiculous stupid

do anyone need more arguments than this ?

Originally posted by Fusion

Originally posted by gieger808

I think RPG lovers and those who crave immersion like the trinity. Those that like more action-y games don't.

 

The role my character has in the trinity partly defines him. Adds to his uniqueness.

 

So again, its the difference between those who like mmorpg's and those who like action mmo's.

 

I don't think it should  be an "argument" between the two. It's two different type of games. Two different types of players.

Very valid points dear sir.

 

In a game where trinity is gone, there won't be alot of uniqueness in character (par the visible stuff), where as a specified class a gamers can either shine (and be invited to groups before others of the same class) or blow (a time for a reroll)

If you suck, you suck, maybe it's not the game for you.

Agreed.

I also think that maybe those who complain about how difficult it makes to get a group aren't as social as one needs to be in a mmorpg. Nothing like logging on and getting a tell saying, "Thank god! Can you run something right now?".

Soloers and anti-social people WOULD hate the trinity if they don't know alot of people and get a good reputation. 

Again, mmorpg's and mmo's cater to different types.

Originally posted by gieger808

Originally posted by Fusion

Originally posted by gieger808

I think RPG lovers and those who crave immersion like the trinity. Those that like more action-y games don't.

 

The role my character has in the trinity partly defines him. Adds to his uniqueness.

 

So again, its the difference between those who like mmorpg's and those who like action mmo's.

 

I don't think it should  be an "argument" between the two. It's two different type of games. Two different types of players.

Very valid points dear sir.

 

In a game where trinity is gone, there won't be alot of uniqueness in character (par the visible stuff), where as a specified class a gamers can either shine (and be invited to groups before others of the same class) or blow (a time for a reroll)

If you suck, you suck, maybe it's not the game for you.

Agreed.

 

I also think that maybe those who complain about how difficult it makes to get a group aren't as social as one needs to be in a mmorpg. Nothing like logging on and getting a tell saying, "Thank god! Can you run something right now?".

Soloers and anti-social people WOULD hate the trinity if they don't know alot of people and get a good reputation. 

Again, mmorpg's and mmo's cater to different types.

You get that tell because the other 4-5 people have been waiting a stupidly long time for someone to log on who can fill the specific role they need. Yes it makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside to be needed, but really, its just annoying for most people involved and it leads to people playing classes they like less just to get a group done. By the way, sorry to burst your bubble, but its not that you have a great reputation, you are just the right class for the job.

Most classes other than healer and tank are optional anyway, sometimes even the tank is optional. I can solo all sorts of current group content on my Shadowknight and Mystic on EQ2 because tanks and priests have become so powerful due to the trinity. Hell, I can even duo raid trash with my flatmate for easy loot just as a healer and a tank. I find games with a trinity lead to people multi-boxing or duoing zones instead of running them with full groups, which is far less social than a game that requires active participation from everyone, not just healers.

Healing is just a mechanic to extend fights.

Taunt is the most retarded concept I've seen.

Originally posted by RathanX26

A good argument against it that isn't subjective? I highly doubt you'll find one that will satisfy you. There is nothing technically wrong with it. It has worked in one form or another for many, many years. Of course what argument would you give for it? What makes the holy trinity "right?" I have mostly played Healers and Tanks since EQ back in '99. I am now 13 years older and would much prefer a game that did not use outdated mechanics to appeal to a mass player base. In your op, you spoke of the need to "reach mass mediocrity population." Well, for anyone who played EQ 13 years ago, with very little change, they could pick up a holy trinity MMO today and already know what it is they would have to do based on their character selection. They would fall into the norm of needing certain gear, having certain skills maxed leveled, and ignoring everything else. If your ok doing things the same way for an extending period of time, then there is nothing wrong with the trinity (as long as you spec and play like every other tank/healer/dps.) Once you have the thought while standing in a raid and spamming heals, that you could train a monkey to do the same damn thing, MMO's lose their appeal.  

Trinity is not about bad, boring game design, and EQ back in '99 had lots of diversity. Problem is that recent MMO-s striped everything to the bare basics tank/heal/dps and that became boring and tedious.

If you make any new system with different roles than holy trinity, you will get just the new system but with the same problem over time(lfg, boredom,...).

Well, let me tell you from one healer's perspective what the "deal" is for me.  I would love to play a healer in GW2 (of course, we can't).  I really enjoy healing, BUT.....and this is a big but.....it gets VERY focking old being the one to take the blame (either me or the tank) for every stupid thing wrong some braindead DPS does and ends up dead.  Now if you've never healed, you might not understand what I just said, but if you have....I don't really need to say much more.  I am relieved to not have to face years of, "omg I waz jest standing in the fire, joo shud be able to healz me threw dat."  Seriously dude, WTF?  Or the lovely dps proud mofos who like to spam their highest dps spell over and over and over and over or their highest ultimate dps rotation repeatedly and as fast as they can fire it off..... and then wonder how they pulled aggro and then get pissed at me for not healing them instead of someone who is NOT doing that or is the tank. Those are two generic examples.  I could write a book FULL of examples. 

In MY opinion, that is part of the "deal" with the trinity.  Two people (or maybe 4 if it's a raid) taking blame for what myriads of other people are doing.  It's bullshit.  Tanks are not infallible and perfect super heroes and neither are your healers, but many "teammates" treat them badly and don't take responsibility for ANYthing.  I'm anxious to actually be one of a TEAM and not the oftentimes scapegoat.

Its an old system from the olden days before pc gaming that technically is the only one that still works from a design pov. I said it before, ill it again. He who figures out the better system will be swimming in mansions and beautiful woman, ferraris you name it.

Originally posted by jmcdermottuk

For me its because with a trinity set up we move out of the realm of fantasy and into the realm of the rediculous. Why?

The mobs are SO stupid they ignore all the guys shooting them full of arrows, stabbing them in the back and flinging fireballs at them and carry on hitting the shield being held up in front of them by the big, butch, heavily armoured warrior dude. The one they can't seem to kill, no matter how hard they try, because of the other dude in the dress who keeps healing him.

Yeah, great idea that.

That's pretty much the root of the issue. It has resulted in a very contrived system (taunt and boss rage attacks, to name two gems in the trinity's crown), and then mob and world design being built around that contrived system. It has spiraled to a point where in many MMOs a group not optimized for the trinity cannot succeed, no matter how hard they try. This makes LFG almost mandatory in many MMOs and frustrates players that attempt to try to find more creative group configurations as they are forced to actively work against the mechanics of the game.

It's a stale mechanic.

Yeah, it is a very gamey system.

Originally posted by Luxthor

What I have read from this forums, in majority of posts, main reason against holy trinity is LFG?! IMHO this is not argument at all, it's pure convenience. Majority of players hate to take group responsibility to heal or are scared to take lead and tank, to learn every dungeon and encounter, what they really want is easy run without any responsibility and secure shiny loot.

 

I'm not against trinity, also not against any other system as long as such provides diversity and distinctive role/profession, but I’m really confused when some players hate trinity and don’t have any real argument aside subjective ones.

 

After mass popularization of MMO-s, every new game tends to minimize those roles, it's the natural process if you want to reach mass mediocrity population, at the end of this process, mainstream MMO-s will only have jack of all trades and master of none type of role/professions. Something when you have left only pawns and than pretend to play chess, with only two options: move and capture. ;)

 

 

So tell me your reason against holy trinity, real reason pls?

It doesn't actually exist. It's a made up term to describe the "need" for a "Tank, Dps, and Healer" for a group to work properly. The only difference is that this doesn't actually happen. The "perfect" group for a game will differ based on the game itself, how its structured, and the encounter itself.

What i've found is that a fullgroup of DPS, or a fullgroup of healing oriented classes that can do a moderate amount of dps, is better than Tank, Dps, Healer, (Dps/Control), (Dps/Control), (Dps/Control).

The actual group setup for most games is normally Tank, Healer, Dps, Dps, Control for 5man group games, and Tank, Healer, Dps, dps, Dps, Control for 6man group games.

The real reason for Why I dislike Trinity!

1) By having Tanks and Heals and DPS,  you only need three players in a party and each one is as important as the other, therefore there is no need for a 4th player or an 5th player, the whole game can be beaten with just these three class working together. But thats it, no diversity no tactics.

2) By specializing roles you limit the player classes. White Mage who are made to be healer will be the top healer in any game. Guardian Tanks will always out tank any other classes, and Assassin DPS will always out dps other classes. Therefore why have any other combinations or hybrids when these will be the only three that will ever be invited in any raid or group.

3) The roles of an Tank is to stand there, know the encounters and press taunt at an specific time to allow maximum aggro.

     The roles of an Healer is to stand there, watch the health bar of the tank and heal at an specific pattern to allow maximum mana usage.

     The roles of an DPS is to stand there, wacking away as fast as possible with every skill on and doing at specific patterns to allow maximum damage output.

In an trinity game, none of these roles will ever change, once you have the pattern remembered and programmed into your auto attack Macros, you the player are no longer needed. The computer can take it from there.

4) Those that likes the Holy Trinity, likes to not think about anything else except the patterns of their skills and their skill cool downs. Its allows them to have the control of the situations without surprises and without having to react to whats happening to the game. How many healers actually knows what the dungeon looks like, I believe the most dedicated Healers have been playing a Health bar game, and not an MMO that everyone else is playing.

If Tanks and Healers are still in the game in any form , the Holy Trinity will always exist, as long as someone can heal, that class will always be the most wanted class in the game, same for tanks.

To truly eliminate Trinity, Healing others must be taken out, same as Taunts. Self Heals can exist, HOT can exist as well, but anything more powerful than that will bring the Trinity back to the game.

Jack of all Trades aren't a bad thing, it all depends on the encounter, because soon someone will realize that althought their character are great at everything, the players themselves excel at one specific role, and that person will become known as the Healer, not the Avatar but the actual Player themselves and that is what eliminating Trinity will bring.

Because its no longer the Class that heals, its the player's skill that mattered, and player skills varies based on the number of people on this Earth. Therefore, by creating one mediocre Jack of All Trades class, you will actually have Millions of classes reflected by the players themselves.

No thinking at all, just learn the routine.