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Guild Wars 2

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General Discussion  » GW2 Downed State Adds Strategy & Complexity

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105 posts found
  C1d0s

Novice Member

Joined: 4/28/09
Posts: 242

"Behind every successful man is a woman, behind her is his wife." ~ Groucho Marx

8/02/12 1:19:19 AM#41
Originally posted by Derpybird
Originally posted by C1d0s

To me, I see the downed state as nothing more than a handicap for those less skilled players - which is fine seeing how the goal of Arenanet was to even the playing field between hardcore (skilled?) and casual players.. much like Warcraft does/is doing. Calling the downed state some innovative, super complex and strategic implimentation does seems a little ridiculous to me, though.

 

Did you, by any chance, actually watch the video about which that comment was made? And the context in which it was made had to do with sPvP, which again, you would know by watching the video in which it seemed, to me, to cleary add another layer of gameplay strategy.

I have no problem with people criticizing faces of GW2 or not agreeing with me, but it would be helpful, at least from my point of view, if you took 10 minutes of your life to see the gameplay to which I was referring.

Or you could, you know, keep making assumptions.

And if you DID watch the video, and still stand by your comments, then so be it, we disagree.

I did, by chance, watch the video about which the comment was made. And the context in which is was made was entirely intentional. 

The majority of the fighting in the video is dependant on what is done during the down state and not so much during combat prior to that point. To me, the heavy focus of downed state in the game's PVP is not appealing because I feel that CC, Cooldowns, and Channeled abilities make much more sense being used during the combat prior to the "last stand" than being reserved until then due to the fact you can't actually take a player out of the game without, in a sense, killing him twice.

What you call an added layer of depth, I call entirely tedious and unecessary.

  Justsomenoob

Novice Member

Joined: 10/20/10
Posts: 871

8/02/12 1:22:25 AM#42

I think this is one of those things where for a bit you're like "omg why do I have to kill everyone twice" etc and then it grows on you.   Then after a while it'll feel great and you'll really miss it if you try another game.

  Derpybird

Novice Member

Joined: 4/02/12
Posts: 1006

 
OP  8/02/12 1:24:58 AM#43
Originally posted by C1d0s
Originally posted by Derpybird
Originally posted by C1d0s

To me, I see the downed state as nothing more than a handicap for those less skilled players - which is fine seeing how the goal of Arenanet was to even the playing field between hardcore (skilled?) and casual players.. much like Warcraft does/is doing. Calling the downed state some innovative, super complex and strategic implimentation does seems a little ridiculous to me, though.

 

Did you, by any chance, actually watch the video about which that comment was made? And the context in which it was made had to do with sPvP, which again, you would know by watching the video in which it seemed, to me, to cleary add another layer of gameplay strategy.

I have no problem with people criticizing faces of GW2 or not agreeing with me, but it would be helpful, at least from my point of view, if you took 10 minutes of your life to see the gameplay to which I was referring.

Or you could, you know, keep making assumptions.

And if you DID watch the video, and still stand by your comments, then so be it, we disagree.

I did, by chance, watch the video about which the comment was made. And the context in which is was made was entirely intentional. 

The majority of the fighting in the video is dependant on what is done during the down state and not so much during combat prior to that point. To me, the heavy focus of downed state in the game's PVP is not appealing because I feel that CC, Cooldowns, and Channeled abilities make much more sense being used during the combat prior to the "last stand" than being reserved until then due to the fact you can't actually take a player out of the game without, in a sense, killing him twice.

What you call an added layer of depth, I call entirely tedious and unecessary.

To be fair, the video was not of an entire sPvP match, but was edited to highlight the dynamics of the downed state. This is not in fact all that happens in a match, as I am sure you are aware.

And again, whether or not you like this mechanic, would you at least agree that these seemed to be skilled players adjusting their tactics on the fly as circumstances changed, and not an example of "OMG downed state is for n00bs because the game is for carebears"?

Having said that, if you neither like nor appreciate the mechanic, so be it. As I said, I have no interest in trying to convince anyone that my perspective is correct.

"Loading screens" are not "instances".
Your personal efforts to troll any game will not, in fact, impact the success or failure of said game.

  Draemos

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/20/10
Posts: 1477

8/02/12 1:50:49 AM#44
Originally posted by Derpybird

I realize that some people have strong opinions about the downed state, finishing moves and rallying mechanics in PvP, and videos such as this may not influence their beliefs.

However, I found this video fascinating, showing how downed state can add a second level of strategy for sPvP, and create some rather dramatic fights.

Enjoy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFAlN6OSVOo

 

As an aside, I hope that they implement a spectator mode, because while I doublt that I will be good enough to compete at higher end PvP, I do enjoy watching these battles. Some of the video reviews of sPvP that I've seen have been very helpful as well in me figuring out traits and proper weapon choice and useage.

Honestly it just looks really stupid to me, I don't like the revive/rally system at all.  The combat looks good though, so there is that.

  Tawn47

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/27/07
Posts: 515

8/02/12 3:42:19 AM#45
Originally posted by otinanai123

More complexity usually equals less fun. The downed state makes PvP slow and frustrating, it forces players to play defensively and take less risks. It actually punishes aggressive play. I can see how PvEers like it though, it makes them feel safe in numbers. 

You should like this game then:

:)

Seriously though, that statement is just false.  The downed state gives more options and things to consider which allows for more strategy.  Personally I'd like to see the ability to rally from the downed state removed..  i.e. you have to be revived to get back into the fight.

 

  aesperus

Elite Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 4848

8/02/12 4:04:20 AM#46

Nice video.

It definitely does a pretty good job of explaining the strategies involved with the downed state, and how it adds another layer of complexity to the game.

As with most aspects of the game, though, I doubt the video is going to do much to educate. It's a new feature, and many people are going to be opposed to it simply because they don't really 'get it', or aren't used to it yet.

Most frequently I see the criticism that it slows down combat. However, that's just not true. Combat is just as fast paced with or without the downed state. What the downed mechanic does is make fire & forget PvP a lot less viable. However, a lot of people are used to fire & forget PvP, and many people equate this with skill, when really all it is is finding the most OP dps build you can find and trying to run around spiking people. That's not faster paced PvP. It's just less tactical.

With the downed state you really have to pay more attention to your surroundings, and that's really all it is. If you do that, the downed state is usually only an extra couple seconds to kill someone. Not a huge deal. The fights with prolonged downed battles aren't the most common, and usually are found in places like the mid nodes with 2 full teams duking it out.

  C1d0s

Novice Member

Joined: 4/28/09
Posts: 242

"Behind every successful man is a woman, behind her is his wife." ~ Groucho Marx

8/02/12 4:16:30 AM#47

And again, whether or not you like this mechanic, would you at least agree that these seemed to be skilled players adjusting their tactics on the fly as circumstances changed, and not an example of "OMG downed state is for n00bs because the game is for carebears"?

I agree to only the highlighted section, but that really doesn't say much. Skilled PVPers are going to adapt whether or not there's a silly mechanic. For all hardcore PVPers care, you could die and every time a giant man-eating squid could pop out of your stomach and the next thing you know there'd be a thousand and one Youtube videos about how to best coordinate with your team to defeat the "downed state squid" .

It doesn't make the mechanic any more tactical or necessary, nor does it mean that the aforementioned mechanic requires skill or extensive knowledge to work-around.

I'm still under the impression the last stand is pointless.

  Caliburn101

Novice Member

Joined: 3/30/11
Posts: 647

"Imagination is more important than knowledge." Albert Einstein

8/02/12 5:17:56 AM#48

I personally like the downed mechanic - nothing like sucking in 2-3 enemy 'healers' to within what just happens to be the perfect radius for every Mark my staff can lay down in the time it takes them to react to the fact they are getting ragged on.... or just as good - surrounding the downed player with Marks just prior to their arrival and watch them trying to calculate whether they can risk running in or not....

Keep it in - it provides variety and I personally love the feeling of recovering or being rescued in close fights.

  otinanai123

Novice Member

Joined: 7/18/10
Posts: 272

8/02/12 10:21:42 AM#49
Originally posted by Tawn47
Originally posted by otinanai123

More complexity usually equals less fun. The downed state makes PvP slow and frustrating, it forces players to play defensively and take less risks. It actually punishes aggressive play. I can see how PvEers like it though, it makes them feel safe in numbers. 

You should like this game then:

:)

Seriously though, that statement is just false.  The downed state gives more options and things to consider which allows for more strategy.  Personally I'd like to see the ability to rally from the downed state removed..  i.e. you have to be revived to get back into the fight.

 

I loved pong back in 84-85. So much fun!

 

It's questionable if it adds more options/strategy when you have 16-25 normal skills vs only 4 downed skills.

Even if it is: more options / more strategy doesn't always equal more fun. The downed state just makes PvP frustrating. 

  terrant

Novice Member

Joined: 3/16/07
Posts: 1685

8/02/12 10:32:07 AM#50

Some things that have been said here, I just don't understand. Would someone who feels this way mind providing a little insight as to why?

  1. How does the downed state make PvP slower? You get someone to 0 health, run over, tap F. Battle too hectic to risk running over? Drop an aoe on the guy and watch him try to heal in vain. in fact, a great tactic is to use a downed enemy as bait to sucker people who see the downed icon and imediately charge over to heal without looking. As the downed player, you're either rezzed or dead in a few seconds. Is that really slowing anyone?
  2. How does the downed state specifically force you to play defensively? 
  3. In tandem with 2, how does it punish aggressive play?
  4. Why do people think downed provides safety? Yes it gives you a small chance at getting back up; but in PvP, if people are getting rezzed a lot, then the attackers are doing it wrong.

 

 

  Gaia_Hunter

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/04/12
Posts: 2676

8/02/12 11:31:59 AM#51

The downed mechanic creates a secondary objective for both teams.

Since it is a team game, awareness of where your team mates are, ability to communicate and coordinate are rewarded by this mechanic.

The downside is that builds focusing on deal as much damage as possible, get a kill and then flee, are weaker.

This also prevents coordinated spikes and one shoting.

The guy in the video complaining about the downed state argued that this make 1vs2 situations impossible, that it is impossible to win vs 2 competent players or 3 or 4.

Is that really an argument?

2 competent players will always beat 1 player in whatever game, unless the game is designed around killing in the blink of an eye out of nowhere.

So this only makes it harder vs noobs, but since people are beating noobs 1vs2, 1vs3 and 1vs4, the point seems moot.

 

Players that like snipe enemies in the blink of an eye, before the other guy has a chance to blink will dislike it. Players that care about teamwork and dislike builds/games that allow insta gibs, will like it.

 

So, concluding, the down state mechanic rewards TEAM PLAYin a TEAM GAME and punishes SOLO PLAY in a TEAM GAME.

Seems a good design decision.

But I guess that are players that like to play public games in mobas for the killing count regardless of achieving the objective of the game.

 

 

Currently playing: GW2
Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, King of Tokyo

  UOvet

Novice Member

Joined: 6/26/07
Posts: 510

8/02/12 11:35:35 AM#52

...

 

I'm not seeing how the downed state really adds "complexity" to the game. Strategy..maybe.

 

Watching 10 people try and down someone at the same time also looks a bit silly.

 

  jayarte

Novice Member

Joined: 8/21/09
Posts: 450

8/03/12 10:54:36 AM#53
Originally posted by ProPatria
Originally posted by otinanai123

More complexity usually equals less fun. The downed state makes PvP slow and frustrating, it forces players to play defensively and take less risks. It actually punishes aggressive play. I can see how PvEers like it though, it makes them feel safe in numbers. 

??  Gotta say this does not make much sense.  Gee...the concept that people should play in a style that might prevent their death!!!wouldn't want that would we?

Wish more games 'punished' aggressive (read: unrealistic/careless/clueless) play and actually rewarded sound/survival-based gameplay.

Agree completely.  The downed state to me adds another layer of strategy, and strategy is what I enjoy in games.  Never been a fan of the gung-ho approach.  Plus, I love the ability to be able to help any downed player in my vicinity without having to roll a healer.  Wonderful idea.

  jayarte

Novice Member

Joined: 8/21/09
Posts: 450

8/03/12 10:58:14 AM#54
Originally posted by C1d0s

All the downed state does is make being beaten much more forgiving and add length to fights. To say that any of this adds extra depth is rather shallow. Pretty much ANYTHING added could, in theory, add some sort of padded complexity no matter how major or minor. IMO, the downed state is tedious and hand-holding and I'd much prefer to just die and rez normally like in most MMOs.

You can choose that option by simply not pressing any keys on the downed state hotbar.  Presto, die and rezz,  just like other MMO's.

 

p.s.  Sorry, still having problems getting multiquote option to work.  Or could you tell? :P

  Sixpax

Novice Member

Joined: 7/28/05
Posts: 602

8/03/12 4:51:03 PM#55
Originally posted by Derpybird

I realize that some people have strong opinions about the downed state, finishing moves and rallying mechanics in PvP, and videos such as this may not influence their beliefs.

However, I found this video fascinating, showing how downed state can add a second level of strategy for sPvP, and create some rather dramatic fights.

Enjoy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFAlN6OSVOo

 

As an aside, I hope that they implement a spectator mode, because while I doublt that I will be good enough to compete at higher end PvP, I do enjoy watching these battles. Some of the video reviews of sPvP that I've seen have been very helpful as well in me figuring out traits and proper weapon choice and useage.

Very good video illustrating the strategy involved with downed state.

Here's a video of Team Paradigm in a tournament match with the devs showing an interesting use of downed state that I hadn't seen or thought of before:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5kdzBPUxeI&hd=1

At about the 5:15 mark you'll see what I'm talking about.

 

MMO games would be pretty cool if it weren't for the people.

  Requiamer

Novice Member

Joined: 5/20/05
Posts: 2054

8/03/12 5:20:47 PM#56

Honestly i think Anet have made a great work with the downed state, i have played few mmo with such system and they really gave it an other level. Also i'm supporting downed state and would really hate to see it go away if it does, and i'm pretty sure it won't at this point.

The only critisize i have about downed state is that it render outnumbered fight impossible to win. 1vs2, you might pull it, but 1vs3 with downed state it's just make it impossible to win, the only thing you might get is time, but a win? forget about it, especially with the actual rez time = stomping time. I also hate boss rally but that's not a big deal honestly, i will get use to it and learn to avoid it.

  otinanai123

Novice Member

Joined: 7/18/10
Posts: 272

8/03/12 6:13:34 PM#57

Some questions to those who like the downed state in PvP:

 

Did you like PvPing in other games?

If they implemented a similar downed state to those games would that make the PvP more enjoyable?

Did you ever want something similar for PvP before you saw it in GW2 videos?

If the downed state was removed from PvP would that make you stop PvPing in GW2?

  Meowhead

Tipster

Joined: 1/31/09
Posts: 3732

8/03/12 6:34:25 PM#58
Originally posted by otinanai123

Some questions to those who like the downed state in PvP:

 

Did you like PvPing in other games?

If they implemented a similar downed state to those games would that make the PvP more enjoyable?

Did you ever want something similar for PvP before you saw it in GW2 videos?

If the downed state was removed from PvP would that make you stop PvPing in GW2?

 ... didn't you do a poll like this, and it turned out really badly for you? :3

  otinanai123

Novice Member

Joined: 7/18/10
Posts: 272

8/03/12 7:23:02 PM#59
Originally posted by Meowhead
Originally posted by otinanai123

Some questions to those who like the downed state in PvP:

 

Did you like PvPing in other games?

If they implemented a similar downed state to those games would that make the PvP more enjoyable?

Did you ever want something similar for PvP before you saw it in GW2 videos?

If the downed state was removed from PvP would that make you stop PvPing in GW2?

 ... didn't you do a poll like this, and it turned out really badly for you? :3

Yep and from what we learned on that poll 80% on this site are "PvPers".

  Meowhead

Tipster

Joined: 1/31/09
Posts: 3732

8/03/12 7:31:14 PM#60
Originally posted by otinanai123

Yep and from what we learned on that poll 80% on this site are "PvPers".

 I'm pretty sure I am!  That's no comment on whether I'm GOOD at it or not, but I spent over 1000 hours in GW1 before I beat even one of the campaigns.

That either makes me the slowest PVE person ever, or I did a lot of PvP. :D

I think a lot (Not all) of the people looking forward to GW2 on this site do a lot of PvP.  Still isn't a comment as to if they're good at PvP or not, just what they like to spend their time doing. :)

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