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8/01/12 10:56:16 PM#21
Can someone of sound mind just explain to me why there seems to be this rift starting between those who will play P2P and those who enjoy F2P? Can't we both have cake and eat it? I myself enjoy F2P since I started checking them out, and then dropping most like a rock after finding that almost all were grindy, horrible worlds where there was nothing but monsters at every corner! I'm looking at you Flyff and Rappelz.
I don't see a problem with P2P, or F2P. I do with P2W, but that's something else. I really enjoyed F2P, back before that thing called youtube, you young people use. It allowed someone to ttry a game without having to commit. I'll admit it, I bought Tabula Rasa. I know the shame. But once I had bought it, and it was P2P, I felt I had to play to get my money out of it. That's not playing a game. That's a chore, and I actually enjoyed playing it for a bit.
And yes the item mall is there to make them their money back, in fact I see it as more of a donation button. If you enjoyed the game quite a bit donate some money. F2P is not the end of the world, and guess what? It's been around almost as long as P2P. It's almost got a seesaw effect going when you think about it. There was more P2P before, and as quality waned the audience turned to F2P. Now if F2P wanes they may go back to P2P for a better quality. Who knows? The more I'm around the forums on this site, the more bitter I become. |
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8/01/12 11:40:57 PM#22
Originally posted by blognorg Diablo 3 is an AAA game even if it is not an MMORPG and it is pay to win in the sense that someone that is willing to spend lets say 1000$ can afford the best available gear from the get go while a player that cant or wont pay will have to farm for ages for the same gear. Now about companyes explicit mentioning that cash shop is not P2W, so what? No company on their right mind would ever say up front they are doing such things, games that do provide the P2W model do not advertise (looking at u Perfect World and Fiesta). I see people worried about the free to play trend because there are plenty of bad executions of the model and they are worried that if the companys find it more profitable they are very likely to choose this bussness model and provide a service similar to the bad ones around. I do believe it is possible to make a good free to play game that is balanced but the issue i have is that majority of the player base are dumb as a door and companys are greedy.The combination of those 2 things are enought to turn a sucessfull well balanced free to play game into a pay to win.After all the company can add new items to the cash shop at any given time so even if it starts fine it can change at any given time and there are plenty of examples of P2W games out there that are doing pretty well meaning there are enought players willing to fork the money to win no matter what.Just saying so people can keep this in mind, once u had spent months playing a game capping, farming gear, making friends and a few items ur not happy with are added to the cash shop it is harder to leave then when ur about to start playing and u dislike the stuff they are selling. |
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8/01/12 11:50:49 PM#23
there are 2 model that worked in america thus far,wow model and guildwars 2 model!ignore the wow greed about going p2p with cash shop ,this isnt the futur !what blizzard does can probablyt only be done by wow!the reason why f2p is so popular is because in asia if there hadnt been f2p there would not be gaming in asia!the reason it is catching on elsewhere is because yes they lose money with a lot of costumer but the more player there is the higher their margin is so the come up on top in the long run! this being said even there if the game is lame it will still have no player! |
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8/01/12 11:51:50 PM#24
Originally posted by Warley |
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8/02/12 12:02:34 AM#25
Like some have mentioned, lol has never been p2p. To be honest, it doesn't really matter it it started f2p or not. My point still stands, lol is a good example of f2p done right.
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8/02/12 12:08:39 AM#26
Originally posted by eyelolled
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8/02/12 12:16:54 AM#27
What I can not understand is a war between P2P and F2P. One person would enjoy p2p only (without cashs hops and any restrictions). Another person would enjoy free world (with some restrictions and possible cash shop). What's wrong then? I like McDonalds, you like Hesburger, but we both like same type of food. Why say ""McDonalds:you don''t want this" or "Hesburger:you don't want this"? Once I saw a movie where one woman escaped from mafia prison, grabbed a bag with cash and went to buy a car. She chose a car and then asked some shoes to be sold. Seller goes to manager: "Sir, this mad woman wants shoes to the car, but we don't sell shoes!". Manager: "Do you want to know why you are still seller and I am manager?". Seller: "yes". Manager: "This woman is a wise one, because she came to shop with us". In short: if user choses pay-to-play model, it's ok. If user choses buy-to-play model, it's ok. If user choses freemium (please note I do not use word "free" since no game is 100% free) content, it's ok. Companies just adapt to this. If all users would start requesting that all food in any MMORPG would be called "burger", companies would surely rename to burgers. In Lithuania some students launched an online game (cosmic strategy). Freemium, of course: want to accelerate that building - pay in cash. One person spent some 600 $ in a day and they asked why. "I just did not want to wait" - told that person from some Scandinavian country. So - if users are willing to use freemium model, what's wrong with it? I do not claim future is for f2p, p2p or b2p. So far freemium content is what seems to be future. One more note: even at freemium content, you may play and spent zero dollars zero cents. No one forces you to pay (yes, that cool armor won't be yours and that line of quests won't be yours too, but you can still enjoy the game). It's up to you, no company would ever push you "buy or get banned". http://www.mmoblogg.wordpress.com |
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8/02/12 12:17:12 AM#28
When mmos go f2p players unfortuantely forgive developers for making a crap game because they don't have to pay the monthly fee anymore so to them all is so much better now. F2P is bad for the mmo genre for the long term because the expectations of a f2p mmo is so much lower than a subscription mmo which have much higher expectations. F2P is nothing more than an excuse for devs not to work as hard as they should. |
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8/02/12 12:19:32 AM#29
Originally posted by Warley That's absolutely ridiculous. I really wish people would stop playing the victim of "these evil corporations". If you aren't smart enough or informed enough to make a good decision about how you spend your money and time, that is your problem. If a company takes advantage of the fact that you are a fool who is easily parted with his money, who's to blame? I say the fool is.
Besides, all you have to do is start playing an f2p game - for free btw, you know, no up front costs - and stop when you come across something you don't agree with in the cash shop. If you can't stop yourself because you "love this game so much", maybe you should seek professional help.
Just because some poster in a forum says so and so game is awesome and such and such sword is the most awesome thing ever, doesn't mean you have to fall for it. But....like P.T. Barnum said, "There's a sucker born every minute."
Just to be clear, when I say "you", I'm not referring directly to you personally, Warley. Unless of course you are actually one of the "fools" I talked about in the first paragraph.
You want me to pay to play a game I already paid for??? Be afraid.....The dragons are HERE! |
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8/02/12 12:19:55 AM#30
Only 2 good P2P ~~> FTP games I have seen/played were Aion and Lineage 2. (Hold up wait I actually enjoyed FTP games)
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8/02/12 12:24:06 AM#31
Originally posted by eyelolled Holy crap! "Eyelolled" my ass off!
You want me to pay to play a game I already paid for??? Be afraid.....The dragons are HERE! |
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8/02/12 12:33:18 AM#32
:Ia Subs are a forced commitment, which is something that can't stand up to the increased options available that don't force a monetary commitment from players. I really don't think it's about "value" or how much you'll pay in the long run, but about being given that choice to pay. To give you a slightly different perspective on it, subscriptions are on "rails." The amount you pay is determined by the publisher, what you get for your money is determined by the devs and publisher. There is no freedom in this payment model, your choices are made for you, you either abide by them or don't play. Can F2P cost you more? Yes. Can it include underhanded tactics to encourage players to pay more? Yes. Anyone who has played a F2P mmo knows this. You aren't bringing anything new to the table by pointing these things out. But F2P also offers choices in how, when, why, and if they want to spend that money. And those choices make the payment model extremely appealing, and are why F2P is currently gaining more and more strength. My solution? Find a sub mmo and support if you feel that strongly about this. Otherwise, learn to adapt, because soapboxing on a forum isn't going to change this.
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8/02/12 12:38:48 AM#33
Originally posted by xdemonhunter I see what you're saying, and your right; D3 is totally a P2W game. However, I'll mention two things.
One, you can still technically buy most of the same stuff with in-game gold, so people that use real money don't have a unique advantage.
Two, they recieved a ton of flack for it, and they damaged their company name in doing so. People are starting to turn on Blizzard. If they make too many more money grabs like they did with Diablo 3, then it's going to start costing them financially.
Another thing is that developers have to be a lot more careful with F2P, because if there's no box charge and they drive away their player-base with crummy money grabs, then they're going to fail. D3 was a special case; the IP is huge, and very few, if any, games could get away with what they did. I really don't expect that to become the norm; it's the exception. |
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8/02/12 1:12:51 AM#34
"F2P: You don't want this" ... I dont? Lemme think... actually I think I somewhat do :) I like to hop around mmo's and since all of my played ones went to f2p during the last couple of years, it's much more easier to play them. Don't have to resub/cancel, planning forward what would I like for the next month, etc. When I find some free time, I can play with any of them, log in to help a buddy, participate in events or just socialize. For me f2p means this freedom first, and only second the "free as in cost-free" aspect. But of course it's playstyle dependant, I play mmo's for the content (the rpg part), and since the majority of the playerbase are towards the opposite (powerlevelling, endgame grinding, etc), companies usually charge that part - which is good for me :) As BigRock wrote: Originally posted by BigRock411 |
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8/02/12 1:15:06 AM#35
I want f2p. I seriously do. And if I like what I see I might even throw in few bucks for something extra.
What I really don't want is to pay 60$ for a box and then further 20$ for monthly sub just to get nothing in return. I don't like buying pig in a poak. No fate but what we make, so make me a ham sandwich please. |
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8/02/12 1:22:04 AM#36
Originally posted by gaeanprayer Thanks for the tips on those games. I will check them out.
Sorry OP but I like F2P. Some games are fun and some aren't as fun. I like the cash shop in some games and not so much in others. I generally spend some money with games I like and don't with those I don't like. |
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8/02/12 1:32:43 AM#37
I prefer P2P games, the charges are up front and clear, you know what your buying into. With F2P games thats often not the case, getting the same 'level' of gameplay out of a F2P game, you often have to pay a lot more than you would if you had been playing a P2P game. MMO's have to be profitable to exist, but a lot of F2P games on the market, perhaps not all of them, but enough to allow a 'generalisation', are short termist cash grabs that arent concerned about how long a player stays with the game, but only about how much money they will spend while they are. B2P is probably the most reputable form of F2P there is, but as with all F2P games, its always wise to research the game and read the small print. |
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8/02/12 9:40:25 AM#38
Originally posted by blognorg This kind comes down to each person definition on Pay to Win, the way i see it if someone for the sake of example with umlimited funds can obtain items or anything else that would take a regular player months to get by farming gold or farming for rares thats pay to win for me.The only definition that everybody seems to agree on is that of cash shops that sell items that are superior than anything else in the game and can only be bought from the cash shop but there are other kinds as i just mentioned even though it varies from player to player.
As far as i can tell Blizzard received alot of negative response from Diablo 3 mostly because the player base thinks the game is bad i didnt see many complains regarding the real money auction house, i could be wrong of course just saying that the complains i saw werent so much adressed at that feature as it was to the gameplay.You should also notice that what billzard did on Diablo 3 is sort of a "test drive" they were experimenting on this bussness model and wanted to see the kind of response and money they could make out of it.Sadly none other than Blizzard itself has the number concerning the RMAH so we dont know if it is providing to be a sucess or not but assuming it turns out to be making alot of money despite complains or not do u honestly think they wouldnt add such feature to their future games if they believe it is a winning strategy? Gotta keep in mind that the big companys tend to follow trends, like P2P is the bussness model that majority uses if it turns out F2W provides more revenue of course majority of the AAA games will follow that model.
As i said i believe you can create a very good free to play game with a cash shop that wont affect players gameplay based on how much they spend, there are a few sucessfull examples on the market even though most are FSP or MOBA the issue i have is even if u do start it off fair nothing stoping the ones in charge from chaning it to P2W in the future.
There are 2 main reasons to mess with a good F2P game: 1-It aint paying itself up, like it or not if u release an AAA game as free to play right of the bat u need to make plenty of money to pay up for developming costs, u need people to buy stuff of the cash shop and cosmetic stuff alone prolly wont generate alot of revenue so they will add more advantages in hopes of getting more players to spent and get enought money to pay for the game
2-Game is doing fine but the ones in charge want more money.People mention this over and over again on this forums, companys are in for the profit.They might be making money but want more so they start slowly changing the cash shop into P2W in baby-steps, add new items that provide small advantages and see the community response and sales and see how far they can go and get away with.I have seen couple games that did such thing, some even started of without a cash shop and it slowly evolved into the P2W model. |
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8/02/12 9:49:53 AM#39
Originally posted by Warley Every company in the world.
The reason we go to work? To make money. Opportunity to make more money? We take it. Opportunity to have less outgoing payments? We take it.
We like to vilify "corporations" for trying make money, while each and every one of us is out to do the best we can at making the best possible living we can.
We all know by now how F2P makes money: more people paying less overall than having a few people pay more. It's easier to get 750K people to spend 5$ a month than it is to get 250K people to spend 15$. The companies with the best way of doing this will win out in the end. I want a mmorpg where people have gone through misery, have gone through school stuff and actually have had sex even. -sagil |
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Yaevindusk
Elite Member
Joined: 9/05/10
Logic, reason and fact do not supersede the law. Lies reign without justice. |
8/02/12 10:01:33 AM#40
I don't see a problem if a game has a Subscription model and a Free to Play model within it. The subscription model typically gives the player all available content, and the other a pay as you go sort of deal. It kind've is the best for both parties. That said, I've spent more money on subscription games the past fourteen years or so than I ever have on F2P microtransactions. Had multiple accounts on UO, like five mules on FFXI, one on planetside, five accounts on WoW, two on DAoC, one on warhammer, one on Age of Conan, FFXIV, TOR, etc. Most of the time they were all active at once simply because I maybe wanted to play one once a month whenever I felt like it. Match that with server transfers among other things that they typically have offered, along with expansions, I probably spent tens upon tens of thousands of dollars on subscription fee based games. Granted I also made quite a bit of money selling old UO accounts back when MMO gaming was more so considered an investment to some; accounts that had multiple castles and vilas were worth incredible sums of money on player to player transactions. Then that craze roughly ended around FFXI's time with gil sellers and their strike teams to prevent such, and the community grew off the idea of IRL transactions = bad. This is especially true with the WoW crowd, since WoW brought in so many people to the genre who basically grew up on the matter that Peer to peer transactions or third party transactions weren't good. Though, Blizzard tried to bring peer to peer back with their four player RPG Diablo III. All in all, I'd like a game that didn't hold my characters hostage with a monthly fee, especially since I enjoy many MMOs and feel harassed to play a game more than I would like a month simply to get my money's worth. The Crystal's Call Gameplay Trailer: http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/blog/post/383 Tour of Eorzea Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JQ87KtH1G8 Six hours of FFXIV 1.0 Cutscenes: http://www.twitch.tv/thaze_tv/b/338928300 |
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