Originally posted by alexanys1982

Yup, I remember when music was awesome, then a fatcat realized the Beatles could be sold to little girls by the billions and that was the end of that.

 

Is WoW our Beatles?

In my opinion... Yes.

the MMo genre is now just as cheap and superficial as the Music Industry, as Hollywood, as Baseball, as Football (both kinds)...

Same stuff always happens to good things... the same stuff is... Greed happens.

Originally posted by Gardavsshade

Originally posted by alexanys1982

Yup, I remember when music was awesome, then a fatcat realized the Beatles could be sold to little girls by the billions and that was the end of that.

 

Is WoW our Beatles?

In my opinion... Yes.

I seen a great vid with frank zappa pointing out that the fact cats new they didn't get it and would let artist do there thing. It was the a&r who thought they new what was hot and candy coated alot of stuff. 

Originally posted by Ikonis
I can see how you might think this if you head is shoved up somewhere dark and stinky and think the only two bands in the world are Justin Bieber and Nickleback.

Nice try. Try again.

Originally posted by Gardavsshade

Originally posted by Ikonis
I can see how you might think this if you head is shoved up somewhere dark and stinky and think the only two bands in the world are Justin Bieber and Nickleback.

Nice try. Try again.

Originally posted by Ikonis

Try what again? You mean the facts?

Like "the OP remembers when music was awesome, back before he was born"?

Originally posted by thekid1

Originally posted by The_Korrigan

Originally posted by thekid1

I rather compare what happened to games to what happened  to movies.

Both are now made for as wide a public as possible and are bland as a result.

Most of this remains elitist opinion though. Some people enjoy to hate what is "mainstream".

Many people "loved to hate" Avatar. Simplistic scenario, all but special effects, etc... yet it's the most successful movie of all times. Millions enjoyed not just the scenario, but simply the living and breathing world James Camerons presented to us in the movie. Of course, some "intellectuals" looked at it snorting: "it crap for the masses". But who cares. I enjoy going back to Pandora on blu-ray like every 6 months or so at least, just for the sheer beauty of the images, and the tight arsed naysayers and other elitists don't affect my enjoyment even just a bit - the collector (+16 mins) edition of the movie is one of the gems of my blu-ray collection. The naysayer can "kiss the darkest ", quoting Jack Sully in the movie ;-)

I like mainstream movies, or I should say use to like them. But those movies are pretty crappy these days.

Compare Indiana Jones 3 to 4 for example.

I didn't like Avatar one bit. Didn't like the cheesy fake in your face romance stuff. Itt goes on and ON. Didn't like any of the characters, especially the whiny lead, and actors with exception of Sigourney Weaver off course. Well, and that snotty suit guy who was in charge was okay.

Especially since I know James Cameron is a directing GOD. He made Aliens. Which is in my opinion the best SCIFI movie ever together with Empire strikes back. And then he makes this kind of crap which is solely made not to make a good movie, but to make as much money as possible. It worries me even more people gobbing up this junk.

If I didn't like mainstream movies I would have said Blade runner is the best SCIFI movie ever. But I didn't because I think the atmosphere and art is briljant, the movie is boring.

Opinions are like ... well, you know what :)

I have Blade Runner (Final Cut) and of course the complete Alien series including Aliens, in my Blu-Ray collection too. I of course have the Star Wars integral (including Empire). And I also have Avatar. None of those are inferior movies to me, I don't buy inferior movies to put in my personal collection.

What you call "cheezy fake" is one of the most impressive technical achievements of the movie industry. I also have Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within and Beowulf, which are the precursors of Avatar. But then, I'm a CGI freak since I work in the industry for almost 25 years now :)

Your post illustrates the attitude I was talking about in my previous post pretty well.

Originally posted by Ikonis

Originally posted by Gardavsshade

Originally posted by Ikonis
I can see how you might think this if you head is shoved up somewhere dark and stinky and think the only two bands in the world are Justin Bieber and Nickleback.

Nice try. Try again.

 

Try what again? You mean the facts?

First of all I said "IN MY OPINION"...

What facts are you speaking of? Financial reports? Investor Profits? How many people were drawn into MMOs because of WoW?

I suppose now you will quote me the reports of subscriber numbers and all that....

I am a MMO Player from BEFORE World of Warcraft... I don't give a damn about financial Reports or all the Wannabes that showed up because of WoW.

What I care about is WHOM was invited into the MMO genre DUE to WoW... and as far as I am concerned way too many people that had no love for how MMOs or the Players showed up because of WoW over time. People that only cared about Profit and Players that only showed up and played because their friend pressured them into it, or because it was "Cool". I care about Devs that don't have a clue what a MMO is supposed to be and I care about Players thinking the only justifiable measure of success of a MMO is a Quarterly Report.

What I care about is seeing this Genre produce Quality MMO Entertainment... Quality gauged by die hard 90 hour a week MMO junkies that live and breathe their favorite MMO... REAL Players that are obsessed because their MMO is THAT MUCH FUN.

That is what I care about. That is something that is not easily quantifiable or identifiable... but you know know it years later when you see the fall out of all the decisions and all the that has taken place.

You can show me all the facts you want to, but facts don't always tell the whole story. The MMO story to ME is that the genre has gone the way of most other Entertainment Genre.... right into the sewer of shallow American Culture along with everything else We Americans touch. (and I am an American... anyone know a good country to move to?)

Originally posted by The_Korrigan

What you call "cheezy fake" is one of the most impressive technical achievements of the movie industry.

Avatar won the same F/X award that Star Wars did, yus?

The acting (on the whole) as approximately equivalent quality...no, I never did see why one was LIKE OMG and one was BURN, WITCH.

---

Originally posted by alexanys1982 Yup, I remember when music was awesome, then a fatcat realized the Beatles could be sold to little girls by the billions and that was the end of that.   Is WoW our Beatles?

---

Wow? I really don't see what WOW is even doing in this discussion, but whatever.

Somehow yes, i also think the evolution is pretty similar, and we have an indy "underground" scene in gaming as well. The only difference is that mmo still required huge budgets, some mmo now use cheap platform and manage to pull it off, but we are far from the easiness of making music in a basement, it's doable but kind of hard.

Music hasn't gotten any worse, and in some ways it's gotten even better. Just stop listening to the radio. The industry is changing, and the old method of selling records is no longer viable. That's definitely true. But to say the industry is dead, lmfao. It's not dead,  it's different. There's a lot stronger of an indie presence now. Bands make their money differently than they used to, as record labels just don't pay out as well anymore.

In some ways you could say similar things about the MMO industry, but it's far from dead. Are games being made like the pioneers of the genre? No, but that's not a bad thing. Genres & industries alike need change in order to grow. If the industry did nothing but make reskins of ultima online, it wouldn't be in a very good spot at all.

Face it, MMOs are evolving. And while some people may not like this, it's necessary and inevitable. I'm sure we will see some games that are throwbacks to older designs. But if you keep living in the past, you're going to have a hard time enjoying the future.

Originally posted by aesperus

Music hasn't gotten any worse, and in some ways it's gotten even better. Just stop listening to the radio. The industry is changing, and the old method of selling records is no longer viable. That's definitely true. But to say the industry is dead, lmfao. It's not dead,  it's different. There's a lot stronger of an indie presence now. Bands make their money differently than they used to, as record labels just don't pay out as well anymore.

In some ways you could say similar things about the MMO industry, but it's far from dead. Are games being made like the pioneers of the genre? No, but that's not a bad thing. Genres & industries alike need change in order to grow. If the industry did nothing but make reskins of ultima online, it wouldn't be in a very good spot at all.

Face it, MMOs are evolving. And while some people may not like this, it's necessary and inevitable. I'm sure we will see some games that are throwbacks to older designs. But if you keep living in the past, you're going to have a hard time enjoying the future.

Very true. One thing people often don't think about is there was alot of crap records,games,movies in the past but we only still see/hear the classics.

Originally posted by The_Korrigan

Originally posted by thekid1

Originally posted by The_Korrigan

Originally posted by thekid1

I rather compare what happened to games to what happened  to movies.

Both are now made for as wide a public as possible and are bland as a result.

Most of this remains elitist opinion though. Some people enjoy to hate what is "mainstream".

Many people "loved to hate" Avatar. Simplistic scenario, all but special effects, etc... yet it's the most successful movie of all times. Millions enjoyed not just the scenario, but simply the living and breathing world James Camerons presented to us in the movie. Of course, some "intellectuals" looked at it snorting: "it crap for the masses". But who cares. I enjoy going back to Pandora on blu-ray like every 6 months or so at least, just for the sheer beauty of the images, and the tight arsed naysayers and other elitists don't affect my enjoyment even just a bit - the collector (+16 mins) edition of the movie is one of the gems of my blu-ray collection. The naysayer can "kiss the darkest ", quoting Jack Sully in the movie ;-)

I like mainstream movies, or I should say use to like them. But those movies are pretty crappy these days.

Compare Indiana Jones 3 to 4 for example.

I didn't like Avatar one bit. Didn't like the cheesy fake in your face romance stuff. Itt goes on and ON. Didn't like any of the characters, especially the whiny lead, and actors with exception of Sigourney Weaver off course. Well, and that snotty suit guy who was in charge was okay.

Especially since I know James Cameron is a directing GOD. He made Aliens. Which is in my opinion the best SCIFI movie ever together with Empire strikes back. And then he makes this kind of crap which is solely made not to make a good movie, but to make as much money as possible. It worries me even more people gobbing up this junk.

If I didn't like mainstream movies I would have said Blade runner is the best SCIFI movie ever. But I didn't because I think the atmosphere and art is briljant, the movie is boring.

Opinions are like ... well, you know what :)

I have Blade Runner (Final Cut) and of course the complete Alien series including Aliens, in my Blu-Ray collection too. I of course have the Star Wars integral (including Empire). And I also have Avatar. None of those are inferior movies to me, I don't buy inferior movies to put in my personal collection.

What you call "cheezy fake" is one of the most impressive technical achievements of the movie industry. I also have Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within and Beowulf, which are the precursors of Avatar. But then, I'm a CGI freak since I work in the industry for almost 25 years now :)

Your post illustrates the attitude I was talking about in my previous post pretty well.

I don't see what "one of the most impressive technical achievements" has to do with a good movie (or game). It's a nice bonus but certainly not a key ingredient. Story(telling), Characters, actors and camerawork those are the key ingredients.

The Empire strikes back  (ORIGINAL cinema cut, no CGI) rules and the prequels stink.

Aliens (no CGI) rules, Avatar is crappy.

No amount of fancy CGI can cover up a stinker. In fact, I wouldn''t mind never seeing CGI again, it makes directors lazy, the actors acting less genuine (hard to get in the mood with a green screen, Spielberg insisted Indy 3 was filmed on location instead of a set, guess he forgot that with Indy 4 when even the set was ditched for a  green screen) and it looks fake.

Originally posted by Gardavsshade

Originally posted by Ikonis

Originally posted by Gardavsshade

Originally posted by Ikonis
I can see how you might think this if you head is shoved up somewhere dark and stinky and think the only two bands in the world are Justin Bieber and Nickleback.

Nice try. Try again.

 

Try what again? You mean the facts?

First of all I said "IN MY OPINION"...

What facts are you speaking of? Financial reports? Investor Profits? How many people were drawn into MMOs because of WoW?

I suppose now you will quote me the reports of subscriber numbers and all that....

I am a MMO Player from BEFORE World of Warcraft... I don't give a damn about financial Reports or all the Wannabes that showed up because of WoW.

What I care about is WHOM was invited into the MMO genre DUE to WoW... and as far as I am concerned way too many people that had no love for how MMOs or the Players showed up because of WoW over time. People that only cared about Profit and Players that only showed up and played because their friend pressured them into it, or because it was "Cool". I care about Devs that don't have a clue what a MMO is supposed to be and I care about Players thinking the only justifiable measure of success of a MMO is a Quarterly Report.

What I care about is seeing this Genre produce Quality MMO Entertainment... Quality gauged by die hard 90 hour a week MMO junkies that live and breathe their favorite MMO... REAL Players that are obsessed because their MMO is THAT MUCH FUN.

That is what I care about. That is something that is not easily quantifiable or identifiable... but you know know it years later when you see the fall out of all the decisions and all the that has taken place.

You can show me all the facts you want to, but facts don't always tell the whole story. The MMO story to ME is that the genre has gone the way of most other Entertainment Genre.... right into the sewer of shallow American Culture along with everything else We Americans touch. (and I am an American... anyone know a good country to move to?)

 

I sort of agree with you, but I dont think its all doom and gloom as you paint it tbh, there still other opportunities out there, because Britney Spears was the big thing back in 2000 didnt have any impact on the music I listened to nor did it bother me that other people enjoyed her music.

I think you overestimate these "people" that have been "pressured" into playing WoW, I have seen this argument many times before and people always try and make it sound like somehow people have been conned into playing WoW, which I think is pretty far from reality, playing to have fun with your friends is a perfectly valid reason to have fun in a game, yet you make it sound like its some sort of con. 

I am of the opinion that people that are so bothered about mainstream and "mainstream ruined my favorite band" are people who are stuck on this loop that they dont want any change, I dont religiously follow a formula or a company or a model, I take everything as is, some MMOs have changed for the worse in my opinion I am just looking out for something that appeals to me, that being a CORPG, some online FPS or a 2D platformer, if any of these can take my attention away from the next WoW clone or attempted WoW clone I will just move away from MMORPGs completely in a heartbeat until something draws me back again.

Though I probably share your frustration of not being able to find something that draws my attention the same way old MMORPGs used to, but I dont condemn or blame people who enjoy new and mainstream MMORPGs or the genre morphing to cater for them. 

Originally posted by thekid1

 

I like mainstream movies, or I should say use to like them. But those movies are pretty crappy these days.

Compare Indiana Jones 3 to 4 for example.

I didn't like Avatar one bit. Didn't like the cheesy fake in your face romance stuff. Itt goes on and ON. Didn't like any of the characters, especially the whiny lead, and actors with exception of Sigourney Weaver off course. Well, and that snotty suit guy who was in charge was okay.

Especially since I know James Cameron is a directing GOD. He made Aliens. Which is in my opinion the best SCIFI movie ever together with Empire strikes back. And then he makes this kind of crap which is solely made not to make a good movie, but to make as much money as possible. It worries me even more people gobbing up this junk.

If I didn't like mainstream movies I would have said Blade runner is the best SCIFI movie ever. But I didn't because I think the atmosphere and art is briljant, the movie is boring.

You are cherry picking.

Dark Knight, Dark Knight Rises .. great movies. Iron man, Avenger .. great movie. Even Inception is a big budget movie.

In fact, there is no shortage of good mainstream movies.

Originally posted by alexanys1982

Yup, I remember when music was awesome, then a fatcat realized the Beatles could be sold to little girls by the billions and that was the end of that.

 

Is WoW our Beatles?

No, but I have a sneaking suspicion that Titan may be.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by thekid1

 

I like mainstream movies, or I should say use to like them. But those movies are pretty crappy these days.

Compare Indiana Jones 3 to 4 for example.

I didn't like Avatar one bit. Didn't like the cheesy fake in your face romance stuff. Itt goes on and ON. Didn't like any of the characters, especially the whiny lead, and actors with exception of Sigourney Weaver off course. Well, and that snotty suit guy who was in charge was okay.

Especially since I know James Cameron is a directing GOD. He made Aliens. Which is in my opinion the best SCIFI movie ever together with Empire strikes back. And then he makes this kind of crap which is solely made not to make a good movie, but to make as much money as possible. It worries me even more people gobbing up this junk.

If I didn't like mainstream movies I would have said Blade runner is the best SCIFI movie ever. But I didn't because I think the atmosphere and art is briljant, the movie is boring.

You are cherry picking.

Dark Knight, Dark Knight Rises .. great movies. Iron man, Avenger .. great movie. Even Inception is a big budget movie.

In fact, there is no shortage of good mainstream movies.

1994 was a good year.  A lot of good new movies.  Not adaptations, remakes or sequels.  Hollywood needs to start making new things.

Originally posted by alexanys1982

Yup, I remember when music was awesome, then a fatcat realized the Beatles could be sold to little girls by the billions and that was the end of that.

 

Is WoW our Beatles?

Whelp, that is just it.  Things go to shit when they are industrialized.

Originally posted by thekid1

I don't see what "one of the most impressive technical achievements" has to do with a good movie (or game). It's a nice bonus but certainly not a key ingredient. Story(telling), Characters, actors and camerawork those are the key ingredients.

The Empire strikes back  (ORIGINAL cinema cut, no CGI) rules and the prequels stink.

Aliens (no CGI) rules, Avatar is crappy.

No amount of fancy CGI can cover up a stinker. In fact, I wouldn''t mind never seeing CGI again, it makes directors lazy, the actors acting less genuine (hard to get in the mood with a green screen, Spielberg insisted Indy 3 was filmed on location instead of a set, guess he forgot that with Indy 4 when even the set was ditched for a  green screen) and it looks fake.

You really give me a shining example of that "living in the past, hating everything what is modern or mainstream" attitude I was talking about. I'm an old fart, I lived my youth in the 80s. But I don't live in the past, and I'm able to appreciate both past movies and present movies. The "anything with CGI is crap" stance is just as nonsensical as the "CGI rules all" stance.

And remember, only the sith deal in absolutes.

PS (for the others): I love Inception. Another gem in my movie collection. So is the Matrix Trilogy.

Originally posted by Icewhite

Originally posted by Ikonis

Try what again? You mean the facts?

Like "the OP remembers when music was awesome, back before he was born"?

You dont need to have been born in that era to appreciate there music. Anyone with a brain stem can see that most of the mainstream music of today cant hold a candle to the Beatles let alone most of the bands from any genre from the 50s,60s,70s and yes, the 80s.