Originally posted by Drakynn

The Articles are opinion pieces not news articles or scientific theorums.If you don't like a certain writers opinion don't read articles by that person(s) articles.

 

The problem is, this site does not differentiate much, if at all, between a "news story" and a "feature" and often they appear in both sections.

Further, how many even remotely negative or even "non-positive" bits about TOR have appeared here at mmorpg.com?

Exactly one, once, and that one was very lukewarm in its criticism.

As compared to the 80-100 positive or very positive ones.

For a game that is/has been tanking as hard as TOR, one would think that some of the failings that are obviously there, might be mentioned, but it is not so.

By your logic, if there are many writers, and a person does not happen to like one, there are others to read.

Problem here is that they ALL follow the party line, and thus they "like everything" or at least "dislike nothing", which is problematic for a site that proports to offer "reviews", with some level of objectivity.

Originally posted by Teala
This website is no worse than others. I mean look at IGN, Massively(who btw gave SWTOR game if the year) and Ten Ton Hammer - rarely write articles that have any negativity and if they do it is watered down. This might be due to advertising dollars, then again maybe it doesn't - but don't single out MMORPG.com because other sites do it as well.

I agree.

Everyone does that...........it's business.

But that's the good thing about Internet, you no longer have to believe what the media tells you.

The community generally is more "honest" about things, one way or another.

I generally read the members reviews to make up my mind, both the negative and the positive ones, I never believe any of the MMORPG.com reviews (or any other site as you pointed out).

Originally posted by Razeekster

As a writer it hurts me to see that a lot of articles on MMORPG.com are written to hype up a game instead of to write about it with 100% honesty. I still have a ton of respect for MMORPG.com, but I'm definitely starting to lose a bit everytime I see such articles.

As a reader I'm tired of these articles too. I've lost all respect for this site ever since they posted that the review total for SWTOR was 9/10 when they too knew that the game wasn't even the same code as the final beta at launch and was rife with graphic errors.

The other thing that has struck me is the clear bias this site has. Apparently, it's not okay to post well thought out factual forum posts about this game title (one risks being called a monster-under-the-bridge if one does just after the launch of SWTOR) but it's completely okay to post completely unfounded nonsense in the forums of another game on this site (three guesses which one) where even the features list proves the poster wrong. When one reports those people, nothing occurs and even MORE future postings of the same type occur without a single warning or closing of a forum thread.

It's disturbing to say the least.

Originally posted by Razeekster

Originally posted by WhiteLantern

Originally posted by ste2000

Originally posted by WhiteLantern

Yet another "How can people like things I don't like" thread. How original.

Find me the last AAA MMO that MMORPG.com criticised................good luck with that.

This is not about not accepting that people have different taste in gaming, but acknowledging the fact there is a certain pattern which is very obvious.

I am not going to criticise MMMORPG.com too much, everyone is entitled to support their business the best they can, every site and magazine does that.

But not reckognising that this site have a soft spot on big publishers (particularly the ones that buys full homepage advertisement space), it means being either in denial or just plain naive.

 

It doesn't take much looking around to see that sandbox fans have flocked to this site in recent years (because they have nothing better to do than hang out here). It also doesn't take much looking to see that the people running the site don't hide their fondness of themeparks.

 

Put the two together and you get a tinfoil-hat brigade claiming everything is about advertising monies and all the writers are corrupt.

 

Add to that a "special" set of peoples who can't understand that people have varrying tastes and we get our daily dose of chaos and pointed fingers.......

And how many AAA sandbox MMOs are there? Themepark MMO advertisements pay MMORPG.com's paychecks not sandboxes. That's why "the people running the site don't hide their fondness of themeparks."

That's right Razeekster, people often claim "conspiracy theory conspiracy theory!" when one is pointing out a simple well known widely practiced business model.

Originally posted by Razeekster

 

I am kind of tired of coming here and looking at articles that put a positive spin on things that are clearly negative. The latest insult to my mind is how all these articles are being written about SW:TOR going F2P and having the gall to say that it's not because the game is an abject failure. Wake up and smell the humus MMORPG.com. 

 

SW:TOR is not going F2P because EA is being kind or made a financial mistake in making SW:TOR P2P instead of F2P. F2P isn't always the "go to" model. If that was true all those P2P MMORPGs out there would be doing badly, which they clearly aren't. I'm tired of people thinking that if P2P games don't have a ridiculous amount of players in them than they are failures. RIFT is a good example of a game that is doing well with the P2P subscription model and they most certainly don't have millions of players.

 

The reason why SW:TOR is going F2P is because players realized that SW:TOR wasn't as good as many sites (such as this site) hyped it up to be. It's because the atrocious amount of money dumped into SW:TOR still didn't fix the fact that not enough love or patience was put into the game. You can hype a game to kingdom come, but it's the players that play the game and it's their opinions and wallets that matter the most and they've clearly spoken. 

 

As a writer it hurts me to see that a lot of articles on MMORPG.com are written to hype up a game instead of to write about it with 100% honesty. I still have a ton of respect for MMORPG.com, but I'm definitely starting to lose a bit everytime I see such articles.

You mean all the ones that are not WoW and still stick to the monthly sub? Trying to think, EvE... Warcraft... Rift...

WHOO! Thats a whopping three games...

About the article on topic here, I actually wrote that. I don't see much "spin".  I wrote up exactly what I was told in the interview, and paraphrased the rest. And this line, however you read it, seems to echo STE's sentiment about why SWTOR went F2P:

"But Jeff and Matt both sound superbly optimistic that when the dust settles on the announcement and all is said and done... Star Wars: The Old Republic will be better off and so will the players."

Trust me when I say we're not trying to drum up hype, and neither are we in anyone's pockets. I work two full time jobs (this is one of them).  I wish I had some of the box sales from D3 or SWTOR, believe me. But, what we all are... are gamers. We do get excited. We do get hyped. We try to give you our honest opinions when we feel them, and while you may disagree... they're still our honest opinions.  I'll point at my own TERA review as an example. I loved the game, but saw its flaws as well.

Mike really loves SWTOR, and will stand by the score he gave it until he re-reviews it after the F2P launch (which will happen).  Because at that time, it will deserve a re-review more than ever.

I hope you guys, especially those of you who feel down on our content, will stick around and keep reading. I believe our review process is far better these days than it was before I took over as ME, and I believe we've got a lot of plans for the next year to drive the site in even more openly honest directions. 

The best part of running this site's content? Though some of you might never believe me here, is that our owners handle all advertisements and tell me to never worry one bit about any of them when it comes to content. We keep our writing and our revenue stream entirely separate from one another. Remember the original Earthrise score we doled out and the full-page ads that came out that same day? Let's just say that I don't think anyone bought that score. On average, our Metacritic reviews are lower than the industry's as a whole... though admittedly not by much. I'm just saying.

Tomorrow we will post our TSW score. It's likely higher than some of you would give it. And lower than others would mark it too. I can say it's above the Metacritic curve, and not by a little bit. But it's Suzie's own opinion, and she gives damn good reasoning as to why she scores it higher in some areas and lower in others. I hope, when you read it and all future reviews and editorials here at the site, that you'll take into consideration always one thing: we never hide the fact that the words we present to you are opinion, and opinion only. 

Whether you agree with us is up to you. But are we shills? Not even a little bit. 

Originally posted by Slampig

Originally posted by Razeekster

 

I am kind of tired of coming here and looking at articles that put a positive spin on things that are clearly negative. The latest insult to my mind is how all these articles are being written about SW:TOR going F2P and having the gall to say that it's not because the game is an abject failure. Wake up and smell the humus MMORPG.com. 

 

SW:TOR is not going F2P because EA is being kind or made a financial mistake in making SW:TOR P2P instead of F2P. F2P isn't always the "go to" model. If that was true all those P2P MMORPGs out there would be doing badly, which they clearly aren't. I'm tired of people thinking that if P2P games don't have a ridiculous amount of players in them than they are failures. RIFT is a good example of a game that is doing well with the P2P subscription model and they most certainly don't have millions of players.

 

The reason why SW:TOR is going F2P is because players realized that SW:TOR wasn't as good as many sites (such as this site) hyped it up to be. It's because the atrocious amount of money dumped into SW:TOR still didn't fix the fact that not enough love or patience was put into the game. You can hype a game to kingdom come, but it's the players that play the game and it's their opinions and wallets that matter the most and they've clearly spoken. 

 

As a writer it hurts me to see that a lot of articles on MMORPG.com are written to hype up a game instead of to write about it with 100% honesty. I still have a ton of respect for MMORPG.com, but I'm definitely starting to lose a bit everytime I see such articles.

You mean all the ones that are not WoW and still stick to the monthly sub? Trying to think, EvE... Warcraft... Rift...

WHOO! Thats a whopping three games...

That control a rather large share of the MMO marketplace. (WAR not withstanding)

Fact is, there's few MMO's out there these days worth paying a sub for more than a few months, hence people won't and don't.

I don't mind the articles on the site, everyone is entitled to their opinion and in the case of SWTOR they've always been fans here at MMORPG.com and they continue to stand by the title. (I don't think it really deals with any form of payment)

But  what the heck, I'm really here just for the forums, I mean heck, that's like someone reading a men's magazine for the articles.... yeah right.

Originally posted by BillMurphy

About the article on topic here, I actually wrote that. I don't see much "spin".  I wrote up exactly what I was told in the interview, and paraphrased the rest. And this line, however you read it, seems to echo STE's sentiment about why SWTOR went F2P:

"But Jeff and Matt both sound superbly optimistic that when the dust settles on the announcement and all is said and done... Star Wars: The Old Republic will be better off and so will the players."

Trust me when I say we're not trying to drum up hype, and neither are we in anyone's pockets. I work two full time jobs (this is one of them).  I wish I had some of the box sales from D3 or SWTOR, believe me. But, what we all are... are gamers. We do get excited. We do get hyped. We try to give you our honest opinions when we feel them, and while you may disagree... they're still our honest opinions.  I'll point at my own TERA review as an example. I loved the game, but saw its flaws as well.

Mike really loves SWTOR, and will stand by the score he gave it until he re-reviews it after the F2P launch (which will happen).  Because at that time, it will deserve a re-review more than ever.

I hope you guys, especially those of you who feel down on our content, will stick around and keep reading. I believe our review process is far better these days than it was before I took over as ME, and I believe we've got a lot of plans for the next year to drive the site in even more openly honest directions. 

The best part of running this site's content? Though some of you might never believe me here, is that our owners handle all advertisements and tell me to never worry one bit about any of them when it comes to content. We keep our writing and our revenue stream entirely separate from one another. Remember the original Earthrise score we doled out and the full-page ads that came out that same day? Let's just say that I don't think anyone bought that score. On average, our Metacritic reviews are lower than the industry's as a whole... though admittedly not by much. I'm just saying.

Tomorrow we will post our TSW score. It's likely higher than some of you would give it. And lower than others would mark it too. I can say it's above the Metacritic curve, and not by a little bit. But it's Suzie's own opinion, and she gives damn good reasoning as to why she scores it higher in some areas and lower in others. I hope, when you read it and all future reviews and editorials here at the site, that you'll take into consideration always one thing: we never hide the fact that the words we present to you are opinion, and opinion only. 

Whether you agree with us is up to you. But are we shills? Not even a little bit. 

Then you really shouldn't write reviews, at all. Objectivity should be a minimum requirement for anyone reviewing games for a site this popular.

Which brings me to Danny Wojcicki, his excellent and spot on review of SWTOR. MMORPG.com deleted it and fired him for writing 'a too controversial' review.

Yeah right..

Actually we fired Danny for his conduct in other forums, posting his entire works in other forums while we also paid for this content, and not his review of SWTOR.  Only one writer was tasked with SWTOR's review, and that was Mike.  And I'll gladly stand by his review of that game, because when he wrote the piece it was his true belief.  

I actually quite liked Danny's writing, but there are better ways to go about presenting yourself to the public than what he was doing. I'll leave it at that.

And we are objective. See the TERA review once more, or any other recent review, all of which are held to the same criteria with writers who try their best to present ups and downs of each title. But as gamers, as fans, and as pundits, we are allowed to also be passionate.  We can an will get excited about something we've been shown while a game's in development, and it's kind of our job to relay both the information we're given and our opinions on it.

Our news feed will give you news as it happens. Our features are almost 100% based on opinions, even previews and reviews. If you don't like that side of our content, than I apologize... but it's not changing. We offer our opinions. It's your choice what you do with them. I hope you can understand that.

Originally posted by Burntvet

Originally posted by Drakynn

The Articles are opinion pieces not news articles or scientific theorums.If you don't like a certain writers opinion don't read articles by that person(s) articles.

 

The problem is, this site does not differentiate much, if at all, between a "news story" and a "feature" and often they appear in both sections.

Further, how many even remotely negative or even "non-positive" bits about TOR have appeared here at mmorpg.com?

Exactly one, once, and that one was very lukewarm in its criticism.

As compared to the 80-100 positive or very positive ones.

For a game that is/has been tanking as hard as TOR, one would think that some of the failings that are obviously there, might be mentioned, but it is not so.

 

By your logic, if there are many writers, and a person does not happen to like one, there are others to read.

Problem here is that they ALL follow the party line, and thus they "like everything" or at least "dislike nothing", which is problematic for a site that proports to offer "reviews", with some level of objectivity.

 

I'd agree with you that there needs to be more seperation between opinion pieces and news reports

I don't find this site as bad as you say but thne I never ahd an anti SW:TOR agenda(Not saying you do either unliek others here I'm not gonna scour your post history just to score points) or an anti any game or game type preference.I find sites liek Massively.com and tentonhammer.com to be much worse when it comes to postively spinning and reviewing every game and market trend.

Again SW:TOR's failing don't really become apparent till youy reach end game and sit there for a week or so...that's when the cracks appear and widen rapidly,that is unless you hate themeparks and/or cut scenes in which case why are you even bothering with the game in the first place?

Gotta say for scoring games, pocket gamer is exemplary in it's approach. They use the Edge (Future Publishing aka Edge-Online approach of x/10) and write with verve and context but also soley to nail that final score as it should be.

/just my 2 cents

Originally posted by Drakynn

Originally posted by Burntvet

Originally posted by Drakynn

The Articles are opinion pieces not news articles or scientific theorums.If you don't like a certain writers opinion don't read articles by that person(s) articles.

 

The problem is, this site does not differentiate much, if at all, between a "news story" and a "feature" and often they appear in both sections.

Further, how many even remotely negative or even "non-positive" bits about TOR have appeared here at mmorpg.com?

Exactly one, once, and that one was very lukewarm in its criticism.

As compared to the 80-100 positive or very positive ones.

For a game that is/has been tanking as hard as TOR, one would think that some of the failings that are obviously there, might be mentioned, but it is not so.

 

By your logic, if there are many writers, and a person does not happen to like one, there are others to read.

Problem here is that they ALL follow the party line, and thus they "like everything" or at least "dislike nothing", which is problematic for a site that proports to offer "reviews", with some level of objectivity.

 

I'd agree with you that there needs to be more seperation between opinion pieces and news reports

I don't find this site as bad as you say but thne I never ahd an anti SW:TOR agenda(Not saying you do either unliek others here I'm not gonna scour your post history just to score points) or an anti any game or game type preference.I find sites liek Massively.com and tentonhammer.com to be much worse when it comes to postively spinning and reviewing every game and market trend.

Again SW:TOR's failing don't really become apparent till youy reach end game and sit there for a week or so...that's when the cracks appear and widen rapidly,that is unless you hate themeparks and/or cut scenes in which case why are you even bothering with the game in the first place?

I agree that separating out the press release type news that they post and the actual content written by the sites authors would go a long way in helping what some people here complain about.  I also don't see why it is so hard for people to believe that others have a different view of a game than they do and if the reviewer doesn't agree with someone elses assessment of the game, then they must be a "shill" or whatever else you want to call them.  

Every mmo I have ever bought I would have given similar scores as to what this site has given them for the first two months.  At that point I usually get tired of the game and move on.  I felt this way about TOR, WAR, WoW, Everquest, DAOC, etc.  I never regretted any mmo purchase I have ever made, I have enjoyed them for at least a month (other than Rift and even that I only paid 4.99 for it so I wasn't upset).  The reason I bring this up is because of the nature of the reviewing process these days.  Most sites try to get as in-depth as possible within a fairly short time frame so as to not lose readers to another site's review.  Many problems don't show up until "end game."  I think this is one of the biggest problems associated with reviewing a mmo, it should take at least a month, but that isn't always possible when trying to compete with other sites.

Originally posted by niceguy3978

 

I agree that separating out the press release type news that they post and the actual content written by the sites authors would go a long way in helping what some people here complain about.  

In reference to this, the upcoming "beta" redesign of our site (it IS coming) will hopefully help this. As it is now, though the front page makes it pretty clear that features are in the top carousel, and news is in its own section.  Heck, there's a tab for news, a tab for reviews, columns, and yes features.  The forums do have a small part to play, as the "News" forum also brings in our features that are published to the RSS feeds.  Still, reading the news post of a feature makes it pretty clear that it's one of our articles.

However the redesigned front page should make it clearer what's what... if that's possible.  

Originally posted by BillMurphy

Actually we fired Danny for his conduct in other forums, posting his entire works in other forums while we also paid for this content, and not his review of SWTOR.  Only one writer was tasked with SWTOR's review, and that was Mike.  And I'll gladly stand by his review of that game, because when he wrote the piece it was his true belief.  

I actually quite liked Danny's writing, but there are better ways to go about presenting yourself to the public than what he was doing. I'll leave it at that.

And we are objective. See the TERA review once more, or any other recent review, all of which are held to the same criteria with writers who try their best to present ups and downs of each title. But as gamers, as fans, and as pundits, we are allowed to also be passionate.  We can an will get excited about something we've been shown while a game's in development, and it's kind of our job to relay both the information we're given and our opinions on it.

Our news feed will give you news as it happens. Our features are almost 100% based on opinions, even previews and reviews. If you don't like that side of our content, than I apologize... but it's not changing. We offer our opinions. It's your choice what you do with them. I hope you can understand that.

Well, I'm not Danny and have no inside info on what actually went down, so no use discussing that any further.

But I'm a bit confused how can you claim your writers to be objective after reading Mike's review and recent article.. they both reek of blind fanboism. I do understand the word 'opinion' and that he really (REALLY) likes the game, but if the guy pretty much ignores the plethora of bad things the game has, then why even bother to call it a review? Where's the value in that?

Originally posted by BillMurphy

Originally posted by niceguy3978

 

I agree that separating out the press release type news that they post and the actual content written by the sites authors would go a long way in helping what some people here complain about.  

In reference to this, the upcoming "beta" redesign of our site (it IS coming) will hopefully help this. As it is now, though the front page makes it pretty clear that features are in the top carousel, and news is in its own section.  Heck, there's a tab for news, a tab for reviews, columns, and yes features.  The forums do have a small part to play, as the "News" forum also brings in our features that are published to the RSS feeds.  Still, reading the news post of a feature makes it pretty clear that it's one of our articles.

However the redesigned front page should make it clearer what's what... if that's possible.  

Bill, the problem here is that the Official MMORPG.com Articles have a LOT more weight than say forum threads or user Blogs here.

MMORPG.com isn't a fan site, and it isn't treated as such. MMORPG.com is treated as an MMO NEWS SITE, and one of the LARGEST aspects of being a NEWS SITE is that all of your Articles, and Article Writers, should be as close to Objective as humanly possible.

That's what being a Reporter, of a "News Site", is all about...being Objective. My English Professor would probably fail you for more than 9/10 of the Articles you, or anyone else, has written here because you're too Subjective & personally involved.

Not to mention the fact that, again Articles posted here have more weight as announcements and "Officiality", puts them under even larger microscopes than the normal forums.

The review, and adamant defending of SWTOR's obvious failure to the industry, is only adding fuel to the fire when it's not a forum topic being posted, but an OFFICIAL Article by MMORPG.com staff.

Originally posted by Fadedbomb

Originally posted by BillMurphy

Originally posted by niceguy3978

 

I agree that separating out the press release type news that they post and the actual content written by the sites authors would go a long way in helping what some people here complain about.  

In reference to this, the upcoming "beta" redesign of our site (it IS coming) will hopefully help this. As it is now, though the front page makes it pretty clear that features are in the top carousel, and news is in its own section.  Heck, there's a tab for news, a tab for reviews, columns, and yes features.  The forums do have a small part to play, as the "News" forum also brings in our features that are published to the RSS feeds.  Still, reading the news post of a feature makes it pretty clear that it's one of our articles.

However the redesigned front page should make it clearer what's what... if that's possible.  

Bill, the problem here is that the Official MMORPG.com Articles have a LOT more weight than say forum threads or user Blogs here.

 

MMORPG.com isn't a fan site, and it isn't treated as such. MMORPG.com is treated as an MMO NEWS SITE, and one of the LARGEST aspects of being a NEWS SITE is that all of your Articles, and Article Writers, should be as close to Objective as humanly possible.

That's what being a Reporter, of a "News Site", is all about...being Objective. My English Professor would probably fail you for more than 9/10 of the Articles you, or anyone else, has written here because you're too Subjective & personally involved.

Not to mention the fact that, again Articles posted here have more weight as announcements and "Officiality", puts them under even larger microscopes than the normal forums.

 

The review, and adamant defending of SWTOR's obvious failure to the industry, is only adding fuel to the fire when it's not a forum topic being posted, but an OFFICIAL Article by MMORPG.com staff.

 

Cut them some slack.  Watch the new HBO series, Newsroom and you will have a better understanding.

@Faded: I do see what you're saying. Honestly. But our FEATURES are opinion-based. It's as simple as that. Our news is news. And they are separated. 

In regards to Mike's column on SWTOR. I can't really say much other than he's a fan of the game and it'd be hard to find someone who wants to cover it that hates it or isn't playing it.  If you go here, and look through all of his many columns, you will find most of them positive. But you will find the more critical. All I can offer here is that Mike and I will try to shed a more balanced light on the game, but as it's still going to be an Op-Ed piece on the game I can't promise you'll ever agree with the way he sees things.

My point again is that our features, damned near everything but interviews, are driven by opinion. Asking us to remove our own thoughts and opinions towards any one topic would defeat the purpose of a site where the content is fueled by those thoughts and opinions. 

Your argument is that we should just report the news with essentially no personal opinion. We do that, when we report news. But when it comes to reviews, previews, editorials, columns, and everything else in between... we're going to include our opinion. Because that's sort of the point of those features. You may not agree with them, you may think us too soft on games you see in a different light than us. I can appreciate that. But you must appreciate that your bias, does not rule our bias.

Originally posted by Badaboom

Originally posted by Fadedbomb

Originally posted by BillMurphy

Originally posted by niceguy3978

 

I agree that separating out the press release type news that they post and the actual content written by the sites authors would go a long way in helping what some people here complain about.  

In reference to this, the upcoming "beta" redesign of our site (it IS coming) will hopefully help this. As it is now, though the front page makes it pretty clear that features are in the top carousel, and news is in its own section.  Heck, there's a tab for news, a tab for reviews, columns, and yes features.  The forums do have a small part to play, as the "News" forum also brings in our features that are published to the RSS feeds.  Still, reading the news post of a feature makes it pretty clear that it's one of our articles.

However the redesigned front page should make it clearer what's what... if that's possible.  

Bill, the problem here is that the Official MMORPG.com Articles have a LOT more weight than say forum threads or user Blogs here.

 

MMORPG.com isn't a fan site, and it isn't treated as such. MMORPG.com is treated as an MMO NEWS SITE, and one of the LARGEST aspects of being a NEWS SITE is that all of your Articles, and Article Writers, should be as close to Objective as humanly possible.

That's what being a Reporter, of a "News Site", is all about...being Objective. My English Professor would probably fail you for more than 9/10 of the Articles you, or anyone else, has written here because you're too Subjective & personally involved.

Not to mention the fact that, again Articles posted here have more weight as announcements and "Officiality", puts them under even larger microscopes than the normal forums.

 

The review, and adamant defending of SWTOR's obvious failure to the industry, is only adding fuel to the fire when it's not a forum topic being posted, but an OFFICIAL Article by MMORPG.com staff.

 

Cut them some slack.  Watch the new HBO series, Newsroom and you will have a better understanding.

Pass, true journalism seems to only be in the Newspaper anymore, or with Online Indie News companies. It's like MMORPG.com is FauxNews for MMOs :/. That's how I feel anyways lol!

Originally posted by Fadedbomb

Cut them some slack.  Watch the new HBO series, Newsroom and you will have a better understanding.

Pass, true journalism seems to only be in the Newspaper anymore, or with Online Indie News companies. It's like MMORPG.com is FauxNews for MMOs :/. That's how I feel anyways lol!

Trust me, Faded. Have a beer with me sometime, and you will know I shudder at the thought of you thinking we're anything at all like Fox News.

/vomit