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The Secret World

The Secret World 

General Discussion  » Grouping Elitism already ?

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93 posts found
  Silverbranch

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/31/10
Posts: 179

Wherever you go, there you are.

7/30/12 7:02:09 PM#81
Originally posted by milllll

TSW was the last straw for me.

I have been playing MMO's since UO and for the last couple of years each new game has failed to hold my attention more than a month or two. After much soul searching I have come to the conclusion that it's not the game design as much as it is the "new" generation that plays them. No matter what the game devs try to design they can't dictate how people will play their game or interact with each other.

Time to find a new hobby..

Heh-heh.

I have a theory.  One many will find objectionable. A theory that surely isn't true in 100% of all cases, but I believe is more true than false:

The dumbing down of MMOs is driven by the desire to open up "the good stuff" to children, because previously it was not really possible unless they were carried. 

Generally speaking, "end game", or "really good stuff", in gear was funnelled too tightly to a segment of the playerbase with too much time to burn on their asses in a chair, leaving too many out of the picture, a great many of them sub-17 yrs of age.

The vast majority of end game raiding guilds were organized and run by those at least 18+ due to the long hours involved, most often at night, even into the wee hours of the morning, or weekends.  Most kids are in bed long before a raid was over.

"In the Day", being in my case WoW, the Onyxia/Molten Core/Blackwing Lair era, Raiding, "best gear" (purples actually meant something then as they were quite difficult to acquire) required massive amounts of people management.  Indeed, along the lines of what is required at a job.

In fairness, probably one valid reason for making things easier perhaps.  Depending on the game I suppose.

Those were FORTY man raids, run over and over.  To get to bosses not yet beat, then past them to the next one, then on to FARMING said instance once all boss fights were practiced and known for MONTHS as various guildies of each class competed for rolls or DKP bidding of potential (not guaranteed) drops of signature class specific gear.

The most hard core, truly LEET players in MMOs, bar none, without question, were your Guild Masters and RAID LEADERS (the successful ones) who beat those  instances.  Who set it up, who organized it, who rode herd on their raid teams and guildies beating down the doors to get a spot on the team, who researched boss fights and made sure people were prepared and trained, and who then ran the Raids for their people.  The Voice in Vent that called the shots, made it happen for everyone.

Not the button monkies mashing buttons and macros once in front of bosses. 

The whining, the crying, the infighting, the drama, the conflict, the pissy-pants arguing that had to be managed and controlled, coupled with the organization, practice, and training of raid TEAMS to beat those challenges, forty player strong. . .

. . . is way out of the league of 99.9% of any kids to handle.

And that's not a poke at kids.  It's just a fact of Life.  Kids don't have the ability yet to understand how to deal with that level of organizational and people management challenge.  They will someday (hopefully), but not "today" as a kid.

But there are a LOT of kids with a whole lot of disposable income nowadays.  Amounts of money I could only have fantasized about when I was a kid. lmao.  Seriously, it's really nuts.

Notice how Purple is the new blue?  And everything is oh so much more accessible with less effort, contributing to the expectations of the "new generation" of mmo player.

/shrug

Just a theory anyway, and no offense to any kids.  I get along with them well actually.  Heh-heh.

In my mind the largest problem many Dev houses have nowadays is a broad-spectrum approach to selecting a client-base.  I think EVE broke from that mold a bit taking a targetted approach to what kind of gamer they wanted as clients, and went that route, instead of trying to be everything to everyone.

Wherever you go, there you are.

  arieste

Elite Member

Joined: 10/11/04
Posts: 3300

7/31/12 8:44:08 AM#82
Originally posted by Iselin

No. You're the one not getting it. And I don't need a wall'o'text to tell you why: it's a game.

LOL.  I love how you say that you don't need a wall of text then you post one.  I know how to read though, so it's not a problem for me.

 

I'm actually not going to respond with my opinion at all this time.  You say "it's a game".  I agree 100%.  And so I've googled the definition of "game".  Here it is:

 

game/g?m/

 
Noun:
A form of play or sport, esp. a competitive one played according to rules and decided by skill, strength, or luck.
 

"I’d rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."

- Raph Koster

Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2
Currently Playing: EQ2, NW, Firefall
Do you miss SWG crafting? Check out Firefall's system!

  Iselin

The Listener

Joined: 3/04/08
Posts: 3524

7/31/12 10:04:21 AM#83
Originally posted by arieste
Originally posted by Iselin

No. You're the one not getting it. And I don't need a wall'o'text to tell you why: it's a game.

LOL.  I love how you say that you don't need a wall of text then you post one.  I know how to read though, so it's not a problem for me.

 

I'm actually not going to respond with my opinion at all this time.  You say "it's a game".  I agree 100%.  And so I've googled the definition of "game".  Here it is:

 

game/g?m/

 
Noun:
A form of play or sport, esp. a competitive one played according to rules and decided by skill, strength, or luck.
 

Oh goody. We're getting to the nitty gritty where word definitions say it all:

cooperation, co-operation [k????p??re???n]

n
1. joint operation or action
2. assistance or willingness to assist 

I underlined the important part that elitists don't get for you.

 

  arieste

Elite Member

Joined: 10/11/04
Posts: 3300

7/31/12 12:10:43 PM#84
Originally posted by Iselin
Originally posted by arieste
Originally posted by Iselin

No. You're the one not getting it. And I don't need a wall'o'text to tell you why: it's a game.

LOL.  I love how you say that you don't need a wall of text then you post one.  I know how to read though, so it's not a problem for me.

 

I'm actually not going to respond with my opinion at all this time.  You say "it's a game".  I agree 100%.  And so I've googled the definition of "game".  Here it is:

 

game/g?m/

 
Noun:
A form of play or sport, esp. a competitive one played according to rules and decided by skill, strength, or luck.
 

Oh goody. We're getting to the nitty gritty where word definitions say it all:

cooperation, co-operation [k????p??re???n]

n
1. joint operation or action
2. assistance or willingness to assist 

I underlined the important part that elitists don't get for you.

 

That's rather irrelevant to this discussion.  ALL players in TSW "assist" NPCs and ALL players in TSW "co-operate" in order to defeat the most challenging encounters.   There isn't really an option to not assist NPCs and there isn't an option to solo nightmare dungeons.  Just because someone people don't want to co-operate with me or you, doesn't mean that they aren't co-operating with someone else.  

 

For example, if you were to ask for my co-operation at ganking noobs, i would refuse.   Doesn't mean that I'm elitist, just that i don't want play with you because I don't like how you play the game or the things you choose to do.   Well.. i guess maybe that DOES make me elitist.   But yeah.. i don't want to play with assholes or idiots.   And depending on my mood, sometimes I don't want to play with people that don't speak russian or that don't use assault rifles or that wear those ridiculous bunny slippers or that aren't in my guild or that don't know you can use passives from non-equipped weapons.    I mean.. ffs.. if we can't choose who we play the game with, what freedom is left?

 

Finally, in my experience - and like I said, i've never actually been in a hardcore elite guild myself, but from what i've seen - the "elitist assholes" that you and i both dislike, actually tend to have accomplished more via co-operation than the rest of the population - including me, including you.   So yeah, the whole "co-operate" thing doesn't really prove any point that I can see.

"I’d rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."

- Raph Koster

Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2
Currently Playing: EQ2, NW, Firefall
Do you miss SWG crafting? Check out Firefall's system!

  Iselin

The Listener

Joined: 3/04/08
Posts: 3524

7/31/12 1:16:19 PM#85
Originally posted by arieste
Originally posted by Iselin
Originally posted by arieste
Originally posted by Iselin

No. You're the one not getting it. And I don't need a wall'o'text to tell you why: it's a game.

LOL.  I love how you say that you don't need a wall of text then you post one.  I know how to read though, so it's not a problem for me.

 

I'm actually not going to respond with my opinion at all this time.  You say "it's a game".  I agree 100%.  And so I've googled the definition of "game".  Here it is:

 

game/g?m/

 
Noun:
A form of play or sport, esp. a competitive one played according to rules and decided by skill, strength, or luck.
 

Oh goody. We're getting to the nitty gritty where word definitions say it all:

cooperation, co-operation [k????p??re???n]

n
1. joint operation or action
2. assistance or willingness to assist 

I underlined the important part that elitists don't get for you.

 

That's rather irrelevant to this discussion.  ALL players in TSW "assist" NPCs and ALL players in TSW "co-operate" in order to defeat the most challenging encounters.   There isn't really an option to not assist NPCs and there isn't an option to solo nightmare dungeons.  Just because someone people don't want to co-operate with me or you, doesn't mean that they aren't co-operating with someone else.  

 

For example, if you were to ask for my co-operation at ganking noobs, i would refuse.   Doesn't mean that I'm elitist, just that i don't want play with you because I don't like how you play the game or the things you choose to do.   Well.. i guess maybe that DOES make me elitist.   But yeah.. i don't want to play with assholes or idiots.   And depending on my mood, sometimes I don't want to play with people that don't speak russian or that don't use assault rifles or that wear those ridiculous bunny slippers or that aren't in my guild or that don't know you can use passives from non-equipped weapons.    I mean.. ffs.. if we can't choose who we play the game with, what freedom is left?

 

Finally, in my experience - and like I said, i've never actually been in a hardcore elite guild myself, but from what i've seen - the "elitist assholes" that you and i both dislike, actually tend to have accomplished more via co-operation than the rest of the population - including me, including you.   So yeah, the whole "co-operate" thing doesn't really prove any point that I can see.

It only seems irrelevant to you because you're not getting it. You're saying since it's a game, there are winners and losers and you're referring to other players as winners or losers. Winners being the "good players" and "losers" being the ones you don't want to group with.

 

I'm saying winning is all of us--all players--against the bad guys--at least in PVE and this is a PVE dungeon elitism discussion.

 

I'm saying I don't want to have anything to do with the content locust who want no one but top-notch uber-experienced players in their group and want to do it as fast as humanly possible. I want to group with normal people who may or may not be the best...who may be running that particular dungeon for the first time. Those are the real MMOers who don't think of this as an e-sport FPS-like quickie. I enjoy people who RP (even though I'm not an RPer myself) and want to absorb the atmosphere along the way. If their technique or build is deficient I'll gladly try to help them improve. That is cooperative game playing.

 

When you refer to players as winners and losers and ratrionalize it on the basis of competitiveness you're just showing your bias. Whether you have played WOW or not is irrelevant. The fact is that those of us who have, refer to that attitude as the WOW mentality because that is where it is most prevalent.

  pajulaakso

Novice Member

Joined: 9/03/10
Posts: 7

7/31/12 1:43:28 PM#86

There are clearly no winners in this discussion.

  arieste

Elite Member

Joined: 10/11/04
Posts: 3300

7/31/12 4:03:59 PM#87
Originally posted by Iselin

I'm saying winning is all of us--all players--against the bad guys--at least in PVE and this is a PVE dungeon elitism discussion.

Right, and so, in order for some people to beat the baddest bad guys, some of the unskiled players need to be left behind, otherwise NO ONE kills the bad guys and the bad guys win (we lose).  So, if you want to co-operate as a whole population with the bad guys dying, the best thing to do is keep the bad players out of those fights until they get good enough to beat the bad guys.  

 

At least that's how i think about it.  If a group is more successful without me in it, i'd rather sit out than see the group fail.  To me that is the ultimate spirit of co-operation - personal sacrifice for the greater good.   Assuming of course that "killing the bad guys" is indeed the greater good as you put it.  If the greater good is you getting stuff while your group fails because you're not pulling your weight.. well.. then it's a different story.

 

To bring it back to TSW, i'll give you a very current example:

 

I'm currently in Egypt, in the first zone.  Even though I have enough SP to use QL10 everything, I am still in QL6 gear.  The reason I am in QL6 gear is because I like to experience all the content "on-level" without triviliazing it for myself.  So i only use the items that come from the zone that I am actually in.  So, I'm in QL6.  Also, I have no freaking idea how to do Ankh.  I've not been in it yet and I have no idea what awaits me there.   So, given the above, I would NEVER just join a Ankh group that is looking for an experienced player.  Because if i did, I may lead that group to failure.   That is in MY hands.  Once i decide to run Ankh, i will either find someone willing to teach me the encounters or I will go with a group that knows that it's my first time and is ok with me learning it on the fly.  Furthermore, i will find out what the expected gear level is for the dungeon and ensure that i meet the requirements.

 

In my opinion, if every player took responsibility for themselves, we wouldn't even have these super-paranoid groups that are so afraid of inviting random people for fear of failure.  

 

It is a game.  That's precisely the point, it's not a show or amusement park ride.  It is a game that has challenges that need to be overcome with skill and co-operation.  If you're not interested in improving your skills or overcoming those challenges, that's entirely your playstyle choice.  But then that's not anyone else's problem.

 

"I’d rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."

- Raph Koster

Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2
Currently Playing: EQ2, NW, Firefall
Do you miss SWG crafting? Check out Firefall's system!

  Silverbranch

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/31/10
Posts: 179

Wherever you go, there you are.

7/31/12 5:38:32 PM#88
Originally posted by arieste
Originally posted by Iselin

I'm saying winning is all of us--all players--against the bad guys--at least in PVE and this is a PVE dungeon elitism discussion.

Right, and so, in order for some people to beat the baddest bad guys, some of the unskiled players need to be left behind, otherwise NO ONE kills the bad guys and the bad guys win (we lose).  

An interesting thought here though is:

I've found a repeating refrain from "skilled speed clearers":  They totally lack any degree of mental flexibility or adaptability.  I consider that a primary set of attributes to someone "skilled", as opposed to a button monkey operating off of a pre-programmed script fueled by builds / class layouts copied from spoilers.

As an example, I was looking to complete one of the mission challenges in Guild Wars.  I've got my Heros layed out as I think best, but I'm relatively new to the game so I don't have all the "trick builds".  I've learned along the way, they are what they are, I'm what I am with the skills I have.

I'm about to go in when a LIVE PLAYER comes up to me and wants to do the mission as well.  Sounds like an experienced player as he asks how I'm setup.  I'm straight up with him, tell him I've never done the mission before, but we should be OK with TWO real live players plus some Heros, yes?

So in we go.  And within one minute I can see the train wreck coming from a mile away.

He's NOT playing with me.  He's not playing with the group, that being me and several Hero NPC "pets".  He's not trying to play WITH the group, the capabilities of the group as configured.

He's rushing forward face first into stuff as if he had the group he was used to with him (I guess), figuring it would all work out somehow. 

Zero game play representing skill whatsoever.  No situational awareness.  Just blind rush it forward with the group trying to keep up with "Mr. Skillz".

Two wipes because Mr. Leet was incapable of any action or thought pattern outside the programmed routine he was used to, and the programmed setup he usually operated under.

After the second wipe his conclusion to the situation was it wasn't doable with the current setup, we needed real players, and heros with a certain build.

No attempt at all to change conduct, to adapt to the situation to defeat the pulls and scenario, to leverage the personnel and skills that were available to clear the challenge right then, in one successful session.  Nothing.  Just try to speed clear it using cookie cutter strat/build X from a recipe book, and if it fails, well, can't be done.  lolololololol. Really sad.

So I excused myself from the group, reformed with my heroes again, went in and beat the scenario myself.  With "junk" Heros, and my pathetic inventory of elite skills to choose from.

Because I tried, had to overcome several wipes myself, but used my head, was adaptable, made clever pulls and backstepping to string packs out, etc.

In other words:  Played the game, actually fought the scenarios using my head and LOOKING at my opponent's setup, placement, and conduct.

Leave the "leet content locusts" to play with themselves (play on words intended).  They paid their money, let them . . . fiddle around in the corner by themselves.

Ignore them and concentrate on finding players of a like mind you are comfortable with, and work well with, and go enjoy the game.

That's what it's for.

Wherever you go, there you are.

  Megera

Novice Member

Joined: 10/14/07
Posts: 44

Taking yourself seriously is the easiest way to make me laugh at you.

7/31/12 6:16:06 PM#89

I don't play with elitists if i know they are elistist.  Just like i dont' associate with members of any other group that shoves its idea of right down my throat.  So i guess i'm an anti-elitist elitist.  v_v

There is absolutely  nothing wrong with wanting to get on, do a couple of speed runs and get off again because you just don't have 5 hours to spend goofing around.  And frankly, I'd appreciate it if a group i was considering joining said just that.  We tell people habitually 'we're just spastically flailing around, so if you are burning for a focused experiance, find another group, we're exploring and chatting' when they group with us - in whatever game.  Or we say 'we're chainpulling all this stuff to gather up stuff and xp!  if you don't like that, we're not going to get our feelings hurt if you wanna go do something else.'  Just be polite about it and everyone can go off still friendly.

What i'd like to see more of in TSW is 'Polaris group forming, novices welcome, death is inevitable, lets try it anyway.'  How does anyone expect people who haven't done it before to learn if no one is willing to group with people who haven't done it eighty-two times?

I don't expect to finish it the first time, nor the fourth.  But i'd like to experiance the content, not just blow it off because people won't group with me because i'm a 'noob'.  I joined on an RP server in the hopes that we'd get some roleplayers *playing* their elitist selves struggling with us lil'ol green horns.  so far - not so much.  But i'm hoping. And when i get to be not so green in the horn, I'll be there, still trying to do polaris with other greenhorns, and maybe someday we'll get it done.  I'm not in a rush.  

  Siveria

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/11/11
Posts: 1134

7/31/12 6:34:15 PM#90

I am surprized it took this long. But get used to stuff like this cuz all themeparks/wow-clones that are solely based on gear grinds usually end up this way, people just wanna get the stuff done and not have to deal with asshats who don't know what they are doing. It just makes it more stressful than it needs to be. I kinda wish mmo's would move away from the raiding endgame, mainly because the game has no more use. An example of proper mmorpg endgame was dark age of camelot, you had pve raids, then the raid gear actually had a use other than more carrot on a stick raid content, after raiding you could go pvp with it, take over keeps, castles and fight the other 2 factions in a huge open zone. I haven't seen any mmorpg mimic that perfect endgame yet to this date. It seems they are either pure pve raiding boringness, that somehow tricks the casual cattle (I view casuals as little more than cattle personally) into keeping a sub open to run 1 raid a week. Or its pve based where the game iks a pure gankfest with no real purpose to the pvp.. mortal online and the like. Nearest thing to daoc's endgame will be guild wars 2, you raid/pve for gear, then go pvp with it for meaningful server wide bonuses. IMO seperating pve from pvp was the biggest mistake mmo devs have made.

 

Being a pessimist is a win-win pattern of thinking. If you're a pessimist (I'll admit that I am!) you're either:

A. Proven right (if something bad happens)

or

B. Pleasantly surprised (if something good happens)

Either way, you can't lose! Try it out sometime!

  sycofiend

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/07/11
Posts: 127

 
OP  8/01/12 12:09:00 PM#91

Funny that one poster actually said "This isn't an Amusement Park" made me LOL

Seems I started a fiery debate !!

I was just surprised at how there were *already* content locust groups,  as for me personally TSW is one of the first games I havent felt compelled to "rush" to end game, and instead of been enjoying and soaking up all the content I can.

Like many have said in this thread, I do understand the camp of people who want to drive and be at the top, just seems odd to see it for 5-man groups, and not raiding end game etc.

AGain, I have had my time wiht that mindset, and chased the end game raiding,  and I dont feel I am a player who wants to be "carried" or not bother to learn. Quite the opposite.  I want to learn the game and have fun while doing it. I just know enough to know that my first attempts are going to have some bumps, and want to avoid people who cannot tolerate learning or make the game into a job.

Its more fun for me to learn and develop counters to boss mechanics for example as opposed to watching the video of someone else who already did and blindly following someone else's patterns.  To me the fun is in the experience and developing your own methods of handling stuff.

 

Anyway lots of good stuff in here ... !! keep it coming.

 

  arieste

Elite Member

Joined: 10/11/04
Posts: 3300

8/01/12 12:29:23 PM#92
Originally posted by sycofiend

Funny that one poster actually said "This isn't an Amusement Park" made me LOL

 

I said it wasn't one, not that it i didn't have one!  :) 

 

But yeah.. even if you use the amusement park example... there are rollercoasters - which everyone enjoys equally and then there is whack-a-mole.  Everyone enjoys whack-a-mole, but only the person with the most skill gets the giant stuffed kitten.  But that person can never get the giant stuffed kitten on their own, they need at least another 4 players to play in order for 1 to win.  

 

Analogies... they're like puns - you know you shouldn't, but you just can't help yourself :)

"I’d rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."

- Raph Koster

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  jdnyc

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/10/12
Posts: 1729

8/01/12 2:42:05 PM#93
Originally posted by BadSpock

Bad design brings out the worst in players.

So when GW2 launches and has the most caustic playerbase that will rival LoL, can we bring this up again?

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