Originally posted by Nanfoodle

Originally posted by Creslin321

Originally posted by Nanfoodle

Originally posted by Creslin321

Originally posted by Nanfoodle

Originally posted by Creslin321

So I see this merry-go-round is still going round and round lol :).  Anyway, I'm going to define the holy trinity as simply as possible:

In RPG combat, you can tank, heal, or DPS.

In the holy trinity you ARE tank, heal, or DPS.

That simple.

LOL this from the guy who has said he has never done a dungeon run in GW2. I will ask your point of view 6 months from now. Have a good day!

 Why do I have to do a dungeon run to know what a word means?  I mean, would I have to actually fly a plane before I understood the definition of "pilot?"

The only way your argument can make sense is if you are trying to say that in GW2 you actually do play a dedicated role (tank/healer/DPS) but I just don't know this because I never did a dungeon.  But you yourself have admitted on several occasions that you don't play a dedicated role in GW2.  Instead, you just have skills that perform the functions of one or more of those roles.

Because your stand has been there is not even a soft trinity and running dungeons has shown me their is. A lot of top end guilds have planed spec that lean to classes strength for the roles they play best to give teams an added boost. People are playing the trinity, not like WoW but more like EQ1, where 2 druids, 2 wizards and a Mage could do any dungeon. Its not a new concept its just a soft trinity and I think after you see how dungeons work you will start to see it to.

 "Soft trinity" is a completely new term that can mean whatever you want.  And you seem to be defining it as "classes have to ability to specialize in control, support, or DPS," which is true in GW2.  But I am not arguing about the "soft trinity," I am arguing about the "holy trinity."  And the holy trinity has always meant dedicated tank, healer, DPS...and this is not in GW2.

If you want to come up with a new term just so you can say that GW2 has a trinity, then be my guest.  But I am not going to argue about that term...GW2 does not have the holy trinity, that is all I am arguing about.

I didnt make up the term, its been in many game reviews. I have never said "holy trinity" I have just said the trinity is here packaged differently.

 In that case, then fine, I agree with you.  You can say that GW2 contains a "trinity" system.  In fact, ANet even stated in an article that the "trinity" of GW2 was DPS, support, and control.

That said...GW2 definitely does not contain the "holy trinity."  And when people say that GW2 doesn't have the trinity...this is what they mean.

Originally posted by Creslin321

Originally posted by Nanfoodle

Originally posted by Creslin321

Originally posted by Nanfoodle

Originally posted by Creslin321

Originally posted by Nanfoodle

Originally posted by Creslin321

So I see this merry-go-round is still going round and round lol :).  Anyway, I'm going to define the holy trinity as simply as possible:

In RPG combat, you can tank, heal, or DPS.

In the holy trinity you ARE tank, heal, or DPS.

That simple.

LOL this from the guy who has said he has never done a dungeon run in GW2. I will ask your point of view 6 months from now. Have a good day!

 Why do I have to do a dungeon run to know what a word means?  I mean, would I have to actually fly a plane before I understood the definition of "pilot?"

The only way your argument can make sense is if you are trying to say that in GW2 you actually do play a dedicated role (tank/healer/DPS) but I just don't know this because I never did a dungeon.  But you yourself have admitted on several occasions that you don't play a dedicated role in GW2.  Instead, you just have skills that perform the functions of one or more of those roles.

Because your stand has been there is not even a soft trinity and running dungeons has shown me their is. A lot of top end guilds have planed spec that lean to classes strength for the roles they play best to give teams an added boost. People are playing the trinity, not like WoW but more like EQ1, where 2 druids, 2 wizards and a Mage could do any dungeon. Its not a new concept its just a soft trinity and I think after you see how dungeons work you will start to see it to.

 "Soft trinity" is a completely new term that can mean whatever you want.  And you seem to be defining it as "classes have to ability to specialize in control, support, or DPS," which is true in GW2.  But I am not arguing about the "soft trinity," I am arguing about the "holy trinity."  And the holy trinity has always meant dedicated tank, healer, DPS...and this is not in GW2.

If you want to come up with a new term just so you can say that GW2 has a trinity, then be my guest.  But I am not going to argue about that term...GW2 does not have the holy trinity, that is all I am arguing about.

I didnt make up the term, its been in many game reviews. I have never said "holy trinity" I have just said the trinity is here packaged differently.

 In that case, then fine, I agree with you.  You can say that GW2 contains a "trinity" system.  In fact, ANet even stated in an article that the "trinity" of GW2 was DPS, support, and control.

That said...GW2 definitely does not contain the "holy trinity."  And when people say that GW2 doesn't have the trinity...this is what they mean.

With this i believe this conversaion has come to an end. Please tip your waitresses and be careful heading home. Goodnight!

Originally posted by Nitth

2 Things:

He keeps referring to Gear issues. I thought "gear issues" were abolished in gw2, and there was no notable difference in gear.

He makes it seem like its some milestone that the trinity is broken. There are games without trinities and soft trinities. Whats basicly occurring here seems like a dps is taking a tank psudo role and then switching when low on health. not rocket science.

Gear matters when you're lacking Vitality and Toughness.

Also, an Elementalist using a scepter is just a waste of space.

Something to note, that there are professions that can generate threat and survive better than others. There are professions that can heal and remove conditions better than others. There are professions that can do better single target dps than others, as well as those that do better AoE dps. Condition builds are garbage for PvE, yet some professions rely heavily on condition damage, conundrums

Another fun fact, as far as support is concerned, whoever generates the most "support threat" will generally get focused by the AI first. Traited Virtue of Resolve, Soothing Mist, Healing Spring, Well of Blood, etc. . . anything you can do in terms of support whether it be condition removal, throwing up boons, or even healing will piss off any of the enemy AI. Though proximity is also a factor for threat. Moreover, some say that even damage is a contributing factor to ones threat, though its probably very low on the list of priorities.

just LOL when i see people say tank on this game. i eman what they will go tank on dungeons? mobs for sure isnt since they cant agrro anything, they just can put on front of projectiles and that it. melee AoE damage hit everyone inside the radius, the same for ranged/spell AoE atacks.

everyone is the tank, heal, support. tell me what class is better on support. i just want LOL a bit.

noob will say GUARDIAN. everyone need guardian on a dungeon, they are the support class, no one can support like guardian. LOOOOOL

guardian managing condition are a joke compared a Necro.

Necro is by far the best class control condition, anyone compare Guardian with Necro on condition clear dont know much about both classes. Necro even have a great healt trait with Life Transfer

Warrior is by far teh best class on CC mobs, with is hammer and mace weapons. no one even compare to it, insane amount of stuns/knockdown. dont forget shouts with is active buffs and with the great elite AoE heal trait.  this class is amazing at healing on tournaments (with cleric amulet AoE heal more than 2k each shout, warrior have 2 shout with only 20s CD...), will do the same on dungeons

Elementalist are great with staff for support, very versatility.

Guardian are great to protect allies, give defensice buff and heal emergency skill with is amazing AoE heal elite skill.

Thief is great with is smoke / venom / blind skills,combos.

you get the point, dont need to say in waht ranger, engineer are good at.  anyone play this agme already should know what every class can do to support team

most people here dont even know how each class work...

Originally posted by moosecatlol

Originally posted by Nitth

2 Things:

He keeps referring to Gear issues. I thought "gear issues" were abolished in gw2, and there was no notable difference in gear.

He makes it seem like its some milestone that the trinity is broken. There are games without trinities and soft trinities. Whats basicly occurring here seems like a dps is taking a tank psudo role and then switching when low on health. not rocket science.

Gear matters when you're lacking Vitality and Toughness.

Also, an Elementalist using a scepter is just a waste of space.

 

Something to note, that there are professions that can generate threat and survive better than others. There are professions that can heal and remove conditions better than others. There are professions that can do better single target dps than others, as well as those that do better AoE dps. Condition builds are garbage for PvE, yet some professions rely heavily on condition damage, conundrums

Another fun fact, as far as support is concerned, whoever generates the most "support threat" will generally get focused by the AI first. Traited Virtue of Resolve, Soothing Mist, Healing Spring, Well of Blood, etc. . . anything you can do in terms of support whether it be condition removal, throwing up boons, or even healing will piss off any of the enemy AI. Though proximity is also a factor for threat. Moreover, some say that even damage is a contributing factor to ones threat, though its probably very low on the list of priorities.

1) Gear is notable, it just doesn't scale as steeply as WoW. The difference between a levl 80 blue and a level 80 green isn't as nearly as big, for instance.

2) Glass cannon builds are viable in PvP and a lesser extent PvE. All depends on how you play. Vit and toughness just means you have more wiggle room to survive getting hit...but you really should be making an effort not to be hit in the first place.

3) You obviously haven't played a Cripple, Vulnerability,or Bleed based build in PvE. Ramp those up fast and the enemy will feel it. I will agree many other conditions are sub par in PvE. Chill and Confusion especially.

4) I wish we understood threat better. I've been having a fun time trying to work out the numbers of things based on events in combat., but sometimes it just seems random. I could stand next to a mob, beating on him for 5 seconds staight, and taking off half his health. My ele partner could hit him ONCE with a fire spell, take maybe a quarter of his health, and the sucker bolts for her.I mean, that's why I have stuns and immobs in my arsenal, but it's still aggravating. Other times I can't shake a mob off me even if I haven't touched it, healed anyone, or done anything but stand there.

Originally posted by Creslin321

So I see this merry-go-round is still going round and round lol :).  Anyway, I'm going to define the holy trinity as simply as possible:

In RPG combat, you can tank, heal, or DPS.

In the holy trinity you ARE tank, heal, or DPS.

That simple.

What about a third option: tank and healer classes that can do decent DPS (generally less that DPS classes) so you get away from the inanity of e.g. a WoW healer that spam heals. Some DPS classes that can heal in some degree, some DPS classes that can off-tank in some situations, etc

There are games with the third option :)

I'm just baffled by how black and white some people think: it's either WoW's trinity or GW2's lack of a trinity

This thread is simply laughable as it has gone from a great video post from the OP to some rambling nonsense by some WoWish fanbois.

GW2 does not have the holy trinity or any other trinity out there, except for the fact that it is extremely fun to play and free of some of the crap that was glueing this genre to the floor.

Yes i like the holy trinity, always will, i like to heal people...what can i do? But i also know the genre is stale and needs some change so i welcome ArenaNets ideas. I can tell you now that GW2 has no form of holy trinity whatsoever as you dont require anyone to have a static job to do and by the simple fact that you dont require to keep a given tank alive so the rest of the people can remain alive also. It is not that hard to think about.

It is too bad that the other thread about this has been closed instead of merged with this one. It had some great comments that will fade very fast now.

Originally posted by someforumguy

It is too bad that the other thread about this has been closed instead of merged with this one. It had some great comments that will fade very fast now.

Eh, really nothing said there that hasn't been said here. And this thread has mostly degenerated into two sides defining trinity differently, and using that to fuel an argument about whether or not GW2 has a trinity. I think Nan and some of the others here have made some good points, but it's 20-something pages of semantics.

Originally posted by Clerigo

This thread is simply laughable as it has gone from a great video post from the OP to some rambling nonsense by some WoWish fanbois.

GW2 does not have the holy trinity or any other trinity out there, except for the fact that it is extremely fun to play and free of some of the crap that was glueing this genre to the floor.

Yes i like the holy trinity, always will, i like to heal people...what can i do? But i also know the genre is stale and needs some change so i welcome ArenaNets ideas. I can tell you now that GW2 has no form of holy trinity whatsoever as you dont require anyone to have a static job to do and by the simple fact that you dont require to keep a given tank alive so the rest of the people can remain alive also. It is not that hard to think about.

There's the hang up. No one that is saying there is a trinity in GW2 is claiming that GW2 has the rigid "holy trinity" system in it. However you still perform the roles switching between them depending on the situation.

Hey at least people relpied to your posts! :)

Just like many threads, I find this thread utterly pointless (ironically i m posting here as well). Arguing about it left and right will not change the fact that guild wars 2 developer do not intent to have a trinity.

And none of us has played the game long enough to have a really serious opinion on whether the trinity is dead or not. And just because you can tank doesn't mean it will go on forever, Anet likes to do balance patches every month and now that they don't have a hard trinity to hold them back they can probably do it faster.

Originally posted by Xzen

Originally posted by Clerigo

This thread is simply laughable as it has gone from a great video post from the OP to some rambling nonsense by some WoWish fanbois.

GW2 does not have the holy trinity or any other trinity out there, except for the fact that it is extremely fun to play and free of some of the crap that was glueing this genre to the floor.

Yes i like the holy trinity, always will, i like to heal people...what can i do? But i also know the genre is stale and needs some change so i welcome ArenaNets ideas. I can tell you now that GW2 has no form of holy trinity whatsoever as you dont require anyone to have a static job to do and by the simple fact that you dont require to keep a given tank alive so the rest of the people can remain alive also. It is not that hard to think about.

There's the hang up. No one that is saying there is a trinity in GW2 is claiming that GW2 has the rigid "holy trinity" system in it. However you still perform the roles switching between them depending on the situation.

Ya this almost hybrid class system really makes GW2 something fresh. Everyone able to switch between DPS, Damage mitigation and healing/support as the team needs it, really makes you sit on the edge of your seat and requires more skill. At the same time removing that looking for X class we are all sick of seeing. I really hope other MMOs start to move in this direction. Soft trinity is the way to go. Hard trinity is dead and people who stick to that mind set will fail but the soft trinity is alive and well in GW2. If you cant see it, give it 6 months and you will.

Originally posted by Nanfoodle

*snip*

Ya this almost hybrid class system really makes GW2 something fresh. Everyone able to switch between DPS, Damage mitigation and healing/support as the team needs it, really makes you sit on the edge of your seat and requires more skill. At the same time removing that looking for X class we are all sick of seeing. I really hope other MMOs start to move in this direction. Soft trinity is the way to go. Hard trinity is dead and people who stick to that mind set will fail but the soft trinity is alive and well in GW2. If you cant see it, give it 6 months and you will.

So, out of curiosity, what defines a Soft Trinity min your opinion? It seems like a term alot of people are using in different ways, all thinking they mean the same thing.

Originally posted by Purgatus

Originally posted by Nanfoodle

*snip*

Ya this almost hybrid class system really makes GW2 something fresh. Everyone able to switch between DPS, Damage mitigation and healing/support as the team needs it, really makes you sit on the edge of your seat and requires more skill. At the same time removing that looking for X class we are all sick of seeing. I really hope other MMOs start to move in this direction. Soft trinity is the way to go. Hard trinity is dead and people who stick to that mind set will fail but the soft trinity is alive and well in GW2. If you cant see it, give it 6 months and you will.

So, out of curiosity, what defines a Soft Trinity min your opinion? It seems like a term alot of people are using in different ways, all thinking they mean the same thing.

Its where all areas of the trinity are in the game but not set to any one class. So instead of being a Warrior Tank, now a warrior in GW2 is 30% damage mitigation, 20% heal and 50% damage and that can be changed with your spec but all three areas of the trinity are there. This means many things and why you have seen it used to cover many different subjects. One I am most intersted in is balance and how ANet will do this. 

Right now each class does something better then the other classes. Guardian can mitigate damage well and so does the Necro with their 9 lives. So I wonder how ANet will balance that when it comes to PvP. Why? Because guilds have already played with people specing to their strengths. My Guardian needs alot less spec resorces to be an awesome healer so a little goes a long way, where a Elelmentlist would need to spend a lot of traits to do the job as well as a guardian. So if everyone is speced to their strengths, this gives a raid in WvW a huge edge. ANet can go 2 ways, 1. remove that edge and everyone can do each role equal. 2. leave it as is and that will force people to follow suit to compete. WoW had the same problem with Add Ons. Leave them in the game and make content harder to level the playing field, by so doing forcing everyone to use them top end raiding. Or remove them and make it even for all. Blizzard went with leaving them in and forcing everyone to use them. What direction will ANet go?

Originally posted by Nanfoodle

Originally posted by Purgatus

So, out of curiosity, what defines a Soft Trinity min your opinion? It seems like a term alot of people are using in different ways, all thinking they mean the same thing.

So if everyone is speced to their strengths, this gives a raid in WvW a huge edge. ANet can go 2 ways, 1. remove that edge and everyone can do each role equal. 2. leave it as is and that will force people to follow suit to compete. WoW had the same problem with Add Ons. Leave them in the game and make content harder to level the playing field, by so doing forcing everyone to use them top end raiding. Or remove them and make it even for all. Blizzard went with leaving them in and forcing everyone to use them. What direction will ANet go?

That is actually a very valid point (finally)

:) jk jk

If something is found to have an edge, even a small edge, it will become "required" for anyone "serious" about their game play.

I don't think it's going to be as big of a problem in GW2 as it is/was with WoW because the player skill in GW2 is so much more of a factor than in WoW.

Best tuned spec in the world in GW2 means nothing if you don't know when to use skills or dodge or don't know positioning etc. etc.

Where as in WoW, best gear best spec you can literally faceroll through so much of the game it isn't even funny.

For example, unless you completely over-gear an instance in WoW you NEED a dedicated Tank and Healer.

However in GW2, you can't really over-gear things as much due to scaling and you don't NEED a dedicated Tank and Healer to "win" if your coordination and skill are good enough.

Originally posted by Nanfoodle

*snip*

Its where all areas of the trinity are in the game but not set to any one class. So instead of being a Warrior Tank, now a warrior in GW2 is 30% damage mitigation, 20% heal and 50% damage and that can be changed with your spec but all three areas of the trinity are there. This means many things and why you have seen it used to cover many different subjects. One I am most intersted in is balance and how ANet will do this. 

Right now each class does something better then the other classes. Guardian can mitigate damage well and so does the Necro with their 9 lives. So I wonder how ANet will balance that when it comes to PvP. Why? Because guilds have already played with people specing to their strengths. My Guardian needs alot less spec resorces to be an awesome healer so a little goes a long way, where a Elelmentlist would need to spend a lot of traits to do the job as well as a guardian. So if everyone is speced to their strengths, this gives a raid in WvW a huge edge. ANet can go 2 ways, 1. remove that edge and everyone can do each role equal. 2. leave it as is and that will force people to follow suit to compete. WoW had the same problem with Add Ons. Leave them in the game and make content harder to level the playing field, by so doing forcing everyone to use them top end raiding. Or remove them and make it even for all. Blizzard went with leaving them in and forcing everyone to use them. What direction will ANet go?

I have a buddy obsessed with the Guardian. No way on god's green earth could he sustain an ally under the direct assault of a powerful mob, much less a boss in a dungeon. At least without using all of his own skills and abilities to stay alive. He shurely can support the team with healing skills, and quite well, but in no way, shape , or form is it enough to be a "Main Healer" in any other MMO I have played. Your milage may vary, but I digress.......

I guess this is where I feel you are running your own variation of "Trinity."

Damage Mitigation.

How broad is your description of damage mitigation?

You see, what you consider the tank role of the trinity, I consider a single aspect of Control. And there are all kinds of Control that could be broadly defined as Damage Mitigation, if you were so inclined.

Lets say Im heavy into Immobilization. If the mob cant get to my team they cant damage them with powerful melee attacks. I am mitigating damage.....

Lets say I have tons of Stuns that I use to interupt the mobs powerful moves. You could say Im mitigating damage there too......

Each of these is a valid method of control that you could use against mobs with the idea of "tanking" them, but its not tanking, its Control.

P.S.- Dear lord my spelling is terrible...trying to correct.....

Originally posted by Nanfoodle

 One I am most intersted in is balance and how ANet will do this. 

Right now each class does something better then the other classes. Guardian can mitigate damage well and so does the Necro with their 9 lives. So I wonder how ANet will balance that when it comes to PvP. Why? Because guilds have already played with people specing to their strengths. My Guardian needs alot less spec resorces to be an awesome healer so a little goes a long way, where a Elelmentlist would need to spend a lot of traits to do the job as well as a guardian. So if everyone is speced to their strengths, this gives a raid in WvW a huge edge. ANet can go 2 ways, 1. remove that edge and everyone can do each role equal. 2. leave it as is and that will force people to follow suit to compete. WoW had the same problem with Add Ons. Leave them in the game and make content harder to level the playing field, by so doing forcing everyone to use them top end raiding. Or remove them and make it even for all. Blizzard went with leaving them in and forcing everyone to use them. What direction will ANet go?

Well, in regards to balance, it's fairly simple. Provide builds (note: not professions) with heavy burst to overcome the heavy mitigation of a G or stupidly-high health pool of a necro (BTW, they nerfed that already...maybe not a problem anymore?). 

There are many others solutions. Much of a G's mitigation and heals comes from A) hitting people, B) standing in symbols, C) using Virtues. Effective crowd control and knocking the G out of his pretty circles can help. Stability will be a problem, but there's ways to manage that too. Isolation is also a viable tactic. Keep the G away from his team mates, murder them, then focus on the G.

Necros...Isolation is the way to go here. Necro damage in DS isn't that high. The real hassle is that they are nearly impossible to kill so long as they are constantly getting heals and people are dying around them. Isolate them from others and don't let your people die. DS runs out quicker, and the Necro is in trouble again. Condition management is also important, which is why every player should carry at least one skill into PvP to deal with conditions.

Do not start on addons here please, already arguing that enough in another thread :) I get your point though...it's my hope that "balanced" specs (generalist) will bring enough of all three flavors to the table to offset the obvious benefits of specialization. As long as they can do that, Anet doens't have to build the game around either methodology.

Originally posted by BadSpock

Originally posted by Nanfoodle

Originally posted by Purgatus

So, out of curiosity, what defines a Soft Trinity min your opinion? It seems like a term alot of people are using in different ways, all thinking they mean the same thing.

So if everyone is speced to their strengths, this gives a raid in WvW a huge edge. ANet can go 2 ways, 1. remove that edge and everyone can do each role equal. 2. leave it as is and that will force people to follow suit to compete. WoW had the same problem with Add Ons. Leave them in the game and make content harder to level the playing field, by so doing forcing everyone to use them top end raiding. Or remove them and make it even for all. Blizzard went with leaving them in and forcing everyone to use them. What direction will ANet go?

That is actually a very valid point (finally)

:) jk jk

If something is found to have an edge, even a small edge, it will become "required" for anyone "serious" about their game play.

I don't think it's going to be as big of a problem in GW2 as it is/was with WoW because the player skill in GW2 is so much more of a factor than in WoW.

Best tuned spec in the world in GW2 means nothing if you don't know when to use skills or dodge or don't know positioning etc. etc.

Where as in WoW, best gear best spec you can literally faceroll through so much of the game it isn't even funny.

For example, unless you completely over-gear an instance in WoW you NEED a dedicated Tank and Healer.

However in GW2, you can't really over-gear things as much due to scaling and you don't NEED a dedicated Tank and Healer to "win" if your coordination and skill are good enough.

Gear balance aside, the skill sets for each class are designed that each class is better at something. 3% boost here, 5% boost there. Guardian healing, Elementlist speced AoE, Ranger speced for ST and you do that accross 30-40 people and that 3-5% boost starts to add up. Do you think ANet will leave it that way? Or even the playing field? If they leave it as is, just like any MMO guilds will be looking for people to fill x,y,z roles with their classes. Not a fixed role where you only do tanking but speced to your clases strengths.

---

Originally posted by BadSpock
That is actually a very valid point (finally)

:) jk jk

If something is found to have an edge, even a small edge, it will become "required" for anyone "serious" about their game play.

I don't think it's going to be as big of a problem in GW2 as it is/was with WoW because the player skill in GW2 is so much more of a factor than in WoW.

Best tuned spec in the world in GW2 means nothing if you don't know when to use skills or dodge or don't know positioning etc. etc.

Where as in WoW, best gear best spec you can literally faceroll through so much of the game it isn't even funny.

For example, unless you completely over-gear an instance in WoW you NEED a dedicated Tank and Healer.

However in GW2, you can't really over-gear things as much due to scaling and you don't NEED a dedicated Tank and Healer to "win" if your coordination and skill are good enough.

---

In WoW bad players can seen as good if they have really good gear, they obviously wont be doing as well as they should but they do well enough.

However, in GW2 since player skill matters so much those same bad players will not be able to do as well because they dont have stats carrying them.

So, if a group of good players have an advantageous set up then they will do even better. So, that means other less skilled players will need to have an equally as advantageous set up or more advantageous set up to increase their chances of defeating the good players.

And thus Nanfoodle's valid point would be realized.