Originally posted by TwoThreeFour

Originally posted by terrant

Originally posted by TwoThreeFour

Originally posted by joocheese

Originally posted by Istavaan

if guild wars 2 is so simple and casual why do you badasses need mods?

Cause for them, playing the UI instead of the game intself is what mmos have beenr reduced to

 

Or they may be two different groups of people? The modding community was for instance embraced by Skyrim. 

(...)

3) I reiterate; If a game's UI is so bad that it requires mods to play, it is the job of the development team to improve the UI so that those mods are not necessary.

(...)

 

A point is that "require mods to play" is a matter of opinion unless you refer to the strict definition as in "needed to actually enter the game and play" in which case I doubt any mod is required. 

Name me a Wow raiding guild with any degree of success that does not require damage meters. Name one.

Name one where the healers use the default UI rather than things like Healbot, Clique, or Vudho.

Name a one that prefers the in game threat meter to KTM/Omen/etc.

And I dare you to find me a single guild that raids and does not require Deadly Boss Mods of its members.

Originally posted by heartless

Originally posted by TwoThreeFour

Originally posted by heartless

Originally posted by TwoThreeFour

Originally posted by heartless

Originally posted by TwoThreeFour

Originally posted by joocheese

Originally posted by Istavaan

if guild wars 2 is so simple and casual why do you badasses need mods?

Cause for them, playing the UI instead of the game intself is what mmos have beenr reduced to

 

Or they may be two different groups of people? The modding community was for instance embraced by Skyrim. 

Skyrim is not an MMO and developers don't have to worry about unfair advantages that mods may give some players.

"Unfair" is a matter of opinion and as with anything one would have to compare the pros against the cons. 

I'm glad that you had absolutely nothing to do with designing this game then.

Read my post above, before you draw drastic conclusions.

You can try to rationalize it all you want, GW2 is not going to have mods and it's a better game for it.

I don't doubt that you currently feel that way.

I can give a example of where I feel a game would change for the better if a certain mod was introduced: cooldown timers (in form of intervals) for ultimates your team sees  and jungle creatures your team slays in League of Legends. Reason why is because the more experienced players already keep track on that in their heads, so for newer players it would shift a part of the focus from memorizing things to actually thinking about and making decisions. I prefer the game to quickly turn into a game of decisions rather than a partial memory game for newcomers. 

Originally posted by heartless

Originally posted by TwoThreeFour

Originally posted by terrant

Originally posted by TwoThreeFour

Originally posted by joocheese

Originally posted by Istavaan

if guild wars 2 is so simple and casual why do you badasses need mods?

Cause for them, playing the UI instead of the game intself is what mmos have beenr reduced to

 

Or they may be two different groups of people? The modding community was for instance embraced by Skyrim. 

(...)

3) I reiterate; If a game's UI is so bad that it requires mods to play, it is the job of the development team to improve the UI so that those mods are not necessary.

(...)

 

A point is that "require mods to play" is a matter of opinion unless you refer to the strict definition as in "needed to actually enter the game and play" in which case I doubt any mod is required. 

Who's opinion? Yours? Mine? Or the people who are kicking you from the group for not having a specific mod?

The simple fact is that if a mod exists that gives even a minute advantage, it will become a requirement by the majority of the playerbase.

If that was the case, then everyone would require you to have an "advanced" gaming mouse and gaming keyboard, but I very much doubt that.

Originally posted by terrant

Originally posted by TwoThreeFour

Originally posted by terrant

Originally posted by TwoThreeFour

Originally posted by joocheese

Originally posted by Istavaan

if guild wars 2 is so simple and casual why do you badasses need mods?

Cause for them, playing the UI instead of the game intself is what mmos have beenr reduced to

 

Or they may be two different groups of people? The modding community was for instance embraced by Skyrim. 

(...)

3) I reiterate; If a game's UI is so bad that it requires mods to play, it is the job of the development team to improve the UI so that those mods are not necessary.

(...)

 

A point is that "require mods to play" is a matter of opinion unless you refer to the strict definition as in "needed to actually enter the game and play" in which case I doubt any mod is required. 

Name me a Wow raiding guild with any degree of success that does not require damage meters. Name one.

Name one where the healers use the default UI rather than things like Healbot, Clique, or Vudho.

Name a one that prefers the in game threat meter to KTM/Omen/etc.

And I dare you to find me a single guild that raids and does not require Deadly Boss Mods of its members.

So you mean that if other players at the top of the game demand you to have it, then it is not good for the game? Should you really play with such people then? 

Edit: Perhaps find a group of people who are more relaxed?

Originally posted by TwoThreeFour

If that was the case, then everyone would require you to have an "advanced" gaming mouse and gaming keyboard, but I very much doubt that.

A) Allow me to assure you there are actually guilds that do that. Thankfully, very very few do though.

B) And the reason for that is money. mods are (almost always) free; high end gaming mice/keyboards get pricey.

Originally posted by terrant

Originally posted by TwoThreeFour

If that was the case, then everyone would require you to have an "advanced" gaming mouse and gaming keyboard, but I very much doubt that.

A) Allow me to assure you there are actually guilds that do that. Thankfully, very very few do though.

B) And the reason for that is money. mods are (almost always) free; high end gaming mice/keyboards get pricey.

If you have a problem with such guilds, then do not join them. Furthermore, with the same reasoning those high end gaming mice and keyboards should be forbidden too, right? 

My general stance is one with A.Net in that mods are not needed and ruin a game  (thus the reason they're not allowing them).

1st)  I know people complain and say that UI mods do nothing but allow them to customize their UI the way they want.  And if it's their game that they play, what's the harm in that?   Well, it's not their game.   It's A.Net's game, they designed.  They put development teams on their UI and their artists and such.  It would be like slapping them in the face if they allowed players to get rid of that with a mod for something else.  Besides that, there's also that the UI is set up specifically for this game to bring the utility of what's needed NOW and leave the rest off as we're playing a game and not the UI.

2nd)  Many mods ruin games.  I'm not saying all, but most of the do.  There are mods that tell you what the enemy's next ability being cast is.  That's counter-productive to what Arena.Net designed this game to be by having the player watch for physical animations of what's going to happen.  See this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgfVZZkgsZI&list=HL1343657691&feature=mh_lolz

3rd)  Mods help support the **** community.   By this, I mean that it brings out a sort of wide-standing standard that you cannot do X in the game without having mod A, B, and C.   And, if you don't have a minimum of XXX damage (provided directly by damager meters) you cannot do YYY content.  Many of these mods are single-purpose without any additional aspects put in, such as support skills, buffs, heals, or whatever.  This makes players a single-minded zombie always chasing the bigger DerPS numbers. 

Originally posted by saurus123

NO

you want mods go play WoW

Ahh yes, once again a shining example of how a community can help its game thrive... by telling people to "Go away" if they ask about a feature that is not already in their chosen golden child.

GW 2 doesnt really need addons, and it is set up in a way that addons such as damage meters and gear scores would be counter to its seemingly stated aims of having a community that has all potential methods of "griefing" removed.

Originally posted by TwoThreeFour

Originally posted by terrant

Originally posted by TwoThreeFour

If that was the case, then everyone would require you to have an "advanced" gaming mouse and gaming keyboard, but I very much doubt that.

A) Allow me to assure you there are actually guilds that do that. Thankfully, very very few do though.

B) And the reason for that is money. mods are (almost always) free; high end gaming mice/keyboards get pricey.

 

If you have a problem with such guilds, then do not join them. Furthermore, with the same reasoning those high end gaming mice and keyboards should be forbidden too, right? 

That's not the point. The point is that in games with progression raiding, where major UI mods that redefine entire gameplay mechanics have been allowed, the game has itself been shaped around the mods. The players shape themselves around the mods. This should never be. 

Now, the argument could be made that since GW2 doesn't have raiding in this vein, such things aren't as big a deal. I'd actually agree. But much like our discussion elsewhere about monts, I just don't think UI mods offer anything meaningful to the game.

Texture mods in an online game are a terrible idea since they can actually harm gameplay (someone made a reference to breaking stealth earlier; see that for an example)

Bar mods are less useful the way GW2's skills work. You never have more than ten skills you can activate at any given time (yes I know, between swapping and whatnot you can have over 30 active skills, but they aren't all available to you simultaneously). I will agree that being able to shuffle abilities around on the bar might not be a bad idea, but I can live without it. Even if it had it, I don't think the game allows for a "1 2 3 4 " rotation in combat anyway.

UI rescaling/resizing is a great idea and I support it, but that has nothing to do with mods.

Ditto for keybind changes.

Changes the actual UI graphics...like making the health bubble a square, or having snarling dragons around the minimap or something...total fluff. I can see why people might want it but it's a little difficult to employ and unecessary.

So..And given the length of this conversation I might have missed it if you gave one earlier...exactly why would you want mads in the game? Oh, and please don't just say "fun" :P I'm curious to kow your actual reasons.

I don't know what people have against UI mods...

I had so much fun using mods to personalize WoW.  I had my own custom interface, and I even had it so that the game would play final fantasy music instead of the default.  It was fun :).

Originally posted by Creslin321

I don't know what people have against UI mods...

I had so much fun using mods to personalize WoW.  I had my own custom interface, and I even had it so that the game would play final fantasy music instead of the default.  It was fun :).

My concern is mostly for mods that affect gameplay. I don't want mods to dictate how the developers design the game. Or how I play it.

Graphics changes that do not severely impact gameplay are fine; though I have the sneaking suspicion that GW2's design doesn't even allow for them to be possible.

Originally posted by Vorch

Originally posted by seridan

I think we'll be able to use texmod in Guild Wars 2 just like we did in Guild Wars 1, so some customization can be possible.

Not this time, I'm afraid. Part of the reason is that texture mods can be used to alter armor and effect colors.

 

It seems harmless, but imagine if you were a stealth assassin and were glowing bright green on someone's screen? It breaks the game.

 

Instead of mods, I'd like to see people bringing up what they would like to have changed with various parts of the game (UI, text, chat boxes, etc). Let the devs know what you want to see, and if enough people ask for it, ANet is usually quite good about getting it to us. The few times they elect NOT to go with what people ask for (account wide dye unlocks), they give a reasonable explaination.

I have a different definition of "reasonable explaination" than you.  The reason they gave for dyes is that they decided it was considered character progression, yet it can be purchased and is randomized.  More on topic, I believe ArenaNet will eventually allow us to move the existing UI elements around the screen as desired.  That would be a fair compromise.  No new UI elements, but you can place the existing ones in such a way that it caters to your playstyle.

Originally posted by terrant

Originally posted by TwoThreeFour

Originally posted by terrant

Originally posted by TwoThreeFour

If that was the case, then everyone would require you to have an "advanced" gaming mouse and gaming keyboard, but I very much doubt that.

A) Allow me to assure you there are actually guilds that do that. Thankfully, very very few do though.

B) And the reason for that is money. mods are (almost always) free; high end gaming mice/keyboards get pricey.

 

If you have a problem with such guilds, then do not join them. Furthermore, with the same reasoning those high end gaming mice and keyboards should be forbidden too, right? 

That's not the point. The point is that in games with progression raiding, where major UI mods that redefine entire gameplay mechanics have been allowed, the game has itself been shaped around the mods. The players shape themselves around the mods. This should never be. 

That depends on what the key intended mechanics are. If a main intended mechanic in a dungeon is to have a very dark environment devoid of light, a mod that would magnify the little light in there so that you could see everything clearly, would go against the main intended mechanic.

If, however, the most important mechanic in a certain boss fight is to have good reflexes while good memory isn't supposed to be important, then a mod that displays in text the attacks a boss does depending on their animation is not game-breaking. 

 

Now, the argument could be made that since GW2 doesn't have raiding in this vein, such things aren't as big a deal. I'd actually agree. But much like our discussion elsewhere about monts, I just don't think UI mods offer anything meaningful to the game.

I consider all sources of joy to be meaningful. Much like people could enjoy decorating their house, some like to decorate their UI according to their own taste. 

Texture mods in an online game are a terrible idea since they can actually harm gameplay (someone made a reference to breaking stealth earlier; see that for an example).

Yes, like in my reply to your first paragraph, I do see that it can harm intended key game mechanics. In the case with stealth, that should not be clientsided at all because otherwise it will just get hacked anyways. If it is not clientsided, then a mod wouldn't be able to "unstealth" the stealthed character; that is though a seperate discussion about elementary protection against the effects of hacking. 

Bar mods are less useful the way GW2's skills work. You never have more than ten skills you can activate at any given time (yes I know, between swapping and whatnot you can have over 30 active skills, but they aren't all available to you simultaneously). I will agree that being able to shuffle abilities around on the bar might not be a bad idea, but I can live without it. Even if it had it, I don't think the game allows for a "1 2 3 4 " rotation in combat anyway.

There are many things one can live without. I can for instance, live without the whole PvE and Structured PvP in Guild Wars 2 and just do World vs World.

 

UI rescaling/resizing is a great idea and I support it, but that has nothing to do with mods.

It is something that I imagine mods would introduce rather quickly. Everything that a mod can do, developers can do themselves, but it is a matter of time,workload and imagination.

 

Ditto for keybind changes.

 

Changes the actual UI graphics...like making the health bubble a square, or having snarling dragons around the minimap or something...total fluff. I can see why people might want it but it's a little difficult to employ and unecessary.

"Necessary" is yet another word that can be used in a subjective context. "Necessary for what?" is a question of relevance. Depending on that "what" lots of things can be considered necessary or unnecessary. 

 

So..And given the length of this conversation I might have missed it if you gave one earlier...exactly why would you want mads in the game? Oh, and please don't just say "fun" :P I'm curious to kow your actual reasons.

For starters, ability to do a lot of "fluff" changes, if enough people consider it to be "fun". Then, depending of which game mechanics developers want to be important, other types of mods may be possible. For instance, if they want memorizing animations to be a key aspect of PvP, then I would not want mods that automatically display in text what different animations are on the screen. 

Originally posted by terrant

Originally posted by Creslin321

I don't know what people have against UI mods...

I had so much fun using mods to personalize WoW.  I had my own custom interface, and I even had it so that the game would play final fantasy music instead of the default.  It was fun :).

My concern is mostly for mods that affect gameplay. I don't want mods to dictate how the developers design the game. Or how I play it.

 

Graphics changes that do not severely impact gameplay are fine; though I have the sneaking suspicion that GW2's design doesn't even allow for them to be possible.

 Yeah I can see your point.  Having a mod that allows you to essentially "cheat" is not cool.  Like I remember there was a mod for UO that would show other players on radar...this is cheating.

But mods for fun stuff like custom music, or different UI layouts?  I don't see what the issue is with them.

And even mods like Auctioneer that helped you learn about the player market were good IMO.  I hated having to manually do market research to figure out pricing for each item I was going to sell.  Auctioneer made this easy and so much more enjoyable.

Originally posted by Banquetto

 

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Originally posted by Alot
Scamboxes? Wutwut? Care to explain?

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Charging a buck fifty for a key to open a box with a random piece of crap in it. It's a common pattern in horrible F2P games - and has recently been adopted by some of the higher profile sub-to-F2P conversions (LOTRO, STO) - but I've never seen it done in a AAA title before.

 

Butler and in game try harder please!

Originally posted by Creslin321

 Yeah I can see your point.  Having a mod that allows you to essentially "cheat" is not cool.  Like I remember there was a mod for UO that would show other players on radar...this is cheating.

But mods for fun stuff like custom music, or different UI layouts?  I don't see what the issue is with them.

And even mods like Auctioneer that helped you learn about the player market were good IMO.  I hated having to manually do market research to figure out pricing for each item I was going to sell.  Auctioneer made this easy and so much more enjoyable.

Good News! It's a suppos....I mean, I'm prety sure GW2's market shows you historical pricing data already. Not as robuest as Auctioneer, but it's a good start.

I don't have an issue with customized layouts or music so long as they don't impact gameplay in any serious way. Like I said, I have a strong feeling the way the game is designed they might not be that easy to implement though. We'll see.

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Originally posted by Creslin321

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Originally posted by terrant

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Originally posted by Creslin321 I don't know what people have against UI mods... I had so much fun using mods to personalize WoW.  I had my own custom interface, and I even had it so that the game would play final fantasy music instead of the default.  It was fun :).

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My concern is mostly for mods that affect gameplay. I don't want mods to dictate how the developers design the game. Or how I play it.   Graphics changes that do not severely impact gameplay are fine; though I have the sneaking suspicion that GW2's design doesn't even allow for them to be possible.

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 Yeah I can see your point.  Having a mod that allows you to essentially "cheat" is not cool.  Like I remember there was a mod for UO that would show other players on radar...this is cheating.

But mods for fun stuff like custom music, or different UI layouts?  I don't see what the issue is with them.

And even mods like Auctioneer that helped you learn about the player market were good IMO.  I hated having to manually do market research to figure out pricing for each item I was going to sell.  Auctioneer made this easy and so much more enjoyable.

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I think supporting any type of mod, including a UI mod, goes against ArenaNet's design philosophy. Remember, you're not suppose to be focused on the UI. You are suppose to be focused on the game. If you are staring at the UI constantly, then you are doing something wrong.

As for something like a cooldown mod, I think this is what will separate the good and great players. The great players will know when the cooldown on their skills are up, and know exactly when and how to use their skills.

There won't be any mods for GW2, thats pretty much a guarantee. There havent been any for GW1 in all these years and other games do not allow it as well. AuctionHouse mods call up the 1-single-flower scammers in it with their 500 listings of the same stupid flower. GearScore is the Internet-Auto-Bully which says "You aint going nowhere buddy". Healbots are not needed as there is no effective healing of others unless a few auras or a turret. If you need a DBM to be able to fight in a dungeon, then you should re-consider going in there in the first place.

People always claim they want a harder game, harder content, harder this and harder that, but in the same breath they are crying and whining for "oh so helpful" mods which have dumbed the community and their playstyle down. 

Originally posted by bookworm438

I think supporting any type of mod, including a UI mod, goes against ArenaNet's design philosophy. Remember, you're not suppose to be focused on the UI. You are suppose to be focused on the game. If you are staring at the UI constantly, then you are doing something wrong.

As for something like a cooldown mod, I think this is what will separate the good and great players. The great players will know when the cooldown on their skills are up, and know exactly when and how to use their skills.

I prefer only decisions to be what seperate good from great players rather than letting memorizing your opponents cooldown timers to be important as well.