Originally posted by Sorrow

And this is why this industry needs strict governmental regulations so they can warrant that we as consumers get value for our money.

Chuckle.  Politics incoming, Danger Will Robinson.

Originally posted by Sorrow

And this is why this industry needs strict governmental regulations so they can warrant that we as consumers get value for our money.

Stop.  Please

Launch days are a special situation because they are not repesentative of the long-term experience.  The problem is that marketting arms of companies hype up the launch day for sales while the engineering arms know that their infrastructure is not designed to handle that initial spike.

I have to say I run into fewer games today that simply won't install or crash every five minutes than I did 20 years ago.  For all the complexity that has been added, the reliability has also greatly increased overall.

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Originally posted by maplestone
Launch days are a special situation because they are not repesentative of the long-term experience.  The problem is that marketting arms of companies hype up the launch day for sales while the engineering arms know that their infrastructure is not designed to handle that initial spike.

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I remember when things like beta tests and stress tests actually meant something.

Originally posted by AlBQuirky

 

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Originally posted by Icewhite

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Originally posted by Kyleran

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 I think you've managed to identify the start of the "dumbing down" of PC gaming, prior to this it really was only for those who could understand and master the intracacies of a DOS based computer.

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Heh, now we're going to claim "working with primitive hardware" as Mad Gaming Skillz Fo Sho Yo?

 

Why, I even reset jumpers on sound cards, sonny!  :wave cane:

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OH, GOD! I remember that "activity", too! And trying to recall which card had what DMA... Was my soundcard on 220 or 240? Go to the config file and make changes. That was soooo long ago, I hope I recalled correctly :)

 

Yeah, and when you screwed it up you had to try to interpret the "beep" codes to figure out where you went wrong.

I used to hear quite a bit of beeping at times.

MMO's are large complex pieces of software. Boots by comparison are far easier to conceive and  make.  There is so much that comes into play that it would take a sizable wall of text to bore you with.  Even if a company does everything right, to have it completely bug free is just not possible. You also have to realize that you can't test in quality by the time users are looking at beta code it is either quality code or it isn't. In order to make money an MMO must be released. It will always be a compromise; the game will never be perfect. Most software can be patched so it can be improved after purchase. My boots don't have that option. 

When I buy a pair of boots I do a little research before spending my hard earned money. I want something that lasts. As others have said, it's up to the user to determine if the money you are spending is on a quality product or not. That is how it should be.  If you really feel you are being shafted on quality I would recommend you never take the risk of buy an MMO at initial release because there just isnt enough info out on it yet. 

Tired of not getting quality products? Stop buying products from companies that are known for their low quality. Simple.

Computer software, games especially, are complex and delicate tapestries of story-telling, game mechanics and so many other ingredients that it is nearly impossible for any one developer to GET IT RIGHT in a way that would satisfy every customer that buys the product in question.

Add to this the fact that developers can never test their product in all of the possible environments that their customers will have at home, and the problem increases.

Add to this the fact that it may take people some time to reach a point in the game where they realize the game is likely to disappoint them, mainly because they were expecting something the game simply doesn't deliver, but their disappointment is just a drop in an ocean of other customers who may approve of the disappointing feature, and you've got a recipe for many complaint threads on many forums.

What happend, is that over the years developers have become as lazy as their customers allow them to be while the customers have become a vocal bunch of wanna-be game designers who think they know better how to develop games and I blame it all on the Internet!

Originally posted by Xzen

Tired of not getting quality products? Stop buying products from companies that are known for their low quality. Simple.

Yay common sense!!!

Heres the deal.  There is a book by K.W. Jeter, Noir(1998), in which he describes two marketing and product cycles: SIAC(s#!* in a can) and SOAW(s#!* on a wire).  "Crap in a can" is when you buy something that only works when you continually pay the mother company(cell phones, MMO's, etc) to use it.  "Crap on a wire" is when you literally pay a company for electricity that appears to be a product, follows the same rules as SIAC, but you end up getting absolutely nothing.  As in the case of Diablo 3.  It is crap on a wire, and people will buy it because somebody in a marketing company said it was cool.

Both Sony and Microsoft are viciously sticking to Crap in a can, their new gaming systems are proof of that, just like the cell phone providers who are insisting on 4G wireless networking(cheaper than land lines-which AT&T is dumping wholesale) even though it firmly puts us at the bottom of the developing world as far as internet speeds go. 

The reason we get cruddy products for our money is that we, as a society, are addicted to convenience and have become a service based society.  We don't want to work for what we have, and as soon as something goes wrong with a device, we chuck it and buy a new one, making it fiscally irresponsible for big companies to make quality products since we will get rid of it at the first sign of adversity.

We get crappy products because we treat all producte we have like crap, regardless of quality, and are willing to slavishly follow our marketing masters into oblivion as long as they say something is cool.

what happened?same as usual!big company ignoring microsoft solution (as usual)a lot of big corp think they are better then ms when programming time come sadly not many can!i ve said it for years to have massive in the mmo the mmo will need at the minimum ms donnybrook!(5 year old techno that is free from ms,just need to pay them for how to implement it to your particular toy)let me give you an exemple!we still are in 32 bit in most game this should tell you a lot!

Before wow the majority of players bought games after the game had already been launched because there were plenty of unfinished mmorpg's being launched. Nowadays most people preorder games and complain that their unrealistic expectations created by hype wasn't fulfilled.

Stop buying games before launch and listen to both the good and the bad things said about games and you will avoid bad products.  A reviewer that has nothing bad to say about a game isn't honest because there is no such thing as a perfect game with no flaws.

Originally posted by drbaltazar

what happened?same as usual!big company ignoring microsoft solution (as usual)a lot of big corp think they are better then ms when programming time come sadly not many can!i ve said it for years to have massive in the mmo the mmo will need at the minimum ms donnybrook!(5 year old techno that is free from ms,just need to pay them for how to implement it to your particular toy)let me give you an exemple!we still are in 32 bit in most game this should tell you a lot!

While I can never really understand much of what you write (yours is a language and truth that far exceeds my limited abilities as a mere Earthling)  I get the feeling that you won't rest until someone... ANYONE... uses Donnybrook to make an MMO.

Eh?

When Aion released I had no problems.

When D3 released there were only 2 days where I had login troubles (and only 0.5 days if you count the fact that I was able to login the morning after launch.)

With GW2 if you're a Super Drama Gamer who bitches about the first week of a game's launch, don't buy it in the first week.  Simple problem.  Simple solution.

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by drbaltazar

what happened?same as usual!big company ignoring microsoft solution (as usual)a lot of big corp think they are better then ms when programming time come sadly not many can!i ve said it for years to have massive in the mmo the mmo will need at the minimum ms donnybrook!(5 year old techno that is free from ms,just need to pay them for how to implement it to your particular toy)let me give you an exemple!we still are in 32 bit in most game this should tell you a lot!

 

While I can never really understand much of what you write (yours is a language and truth that far exceeds my limited abilities as a mere Earthling)  I get the feeling that you won't rest until someone... ANYONE... uses Donnybrook to make an MMO.

I've always wondered if there was actually an example of that tech being used and working better than something like Planetside.

Or if it's just an overhyped cure-all baltazar completely bought into with no proof of concept.

Anyone can work on a piece of tech and promise big.  In fact many often do!  But whether that piece of tech is actually capable of not only executing, but being considerably better than other examples, is a big open question.

First and foremost in regards to video games. When your spending your money on the game your not buying the game your buying a liscence to allow you to play said game. Read any eula or agreements in boxes and so on thats just how it is. 

Secondly, everyone experiences software differently because many computers are different. Uploading files to a server can cause wear and tear on servers as well files can go mia whilst uploading. That is just part of the process. Adjusting fixes for each computer , console, and so on can be nerve wracking. Not to mention the people developing these games are still people. 

They need to take care of themselves and their families as well. So there is always room for error and if you cannot expect that than your thought process is flawed greatly. At the same time no one is forcing you to buy said video game. No one is putting a  gun to your head to buy this game. Most games now days also have demos or trials.  Play one of those before spending your money on a game. It is impossible to have a 100% bug free, confrontation free launch of any game. Because shit happens. Companies have to deal with it as it happens. 

Some companies have shitty customer service and or dont deal with the problems as well or as fast as others. 

I do agree that game development even design has become more of making it look pretty and hoping the players dont notice the other crap. Don't get me wrong I like pretty graphics but games have become more about the graphics than the gameplay.  Game Studios constantly fighting political battles between themselves. Usually when studios battle the consumer wins but not in all cases. Sometimes its the exact opposite. 

My point in all this is, devs. designers are people just like you. Human error is always a possibillity and thinking there is no room for error then your wrong. 

I don't have a problem with the idea that a company can release a crappy product that doesn't work at all or doesn't work as advertised.

But if as customer you can only rely on hearsay from other beta players and the company doesn't admit that there are serious problems before launching their product, you should always be able to receive a refund as customer. Especially with MMO's this is a problem. For some reason many of the MMO companies think that they don't owe their customers any refund even if they completely screw up the first weeks after a release. You should always have a right to return the product if it doesn't work as promised. Their excuses don't matter in this.

Atm, the whole digital media industry is treating customers like crap. Even when products work as intended. Their excuses (anti-piracy, cheating prevention etc) for making you put up with online authorizing (even for single player), DRM installing that messes with your pc's, restrictions of where you can play your CD on, just shows that even paying customers are being seen as potential criminals/cheaters. I mean, why do the legit paying players have to deal with those companies' anti piracy crap for example? Don't those companies understand the irony that the ppl who use pirated copies often have a better play experience?

Originally posted by daydreamerxx

First and foremost in regards to video games. When your spending your money on the game your not buying the game your buying a liscence to allow you to play said game. Read any eula or agreements in boxes and so on thats just how it is. 

 That is debatable. Those companies are not the law and just because something is put in the EULA doesn't automatically mean it is right according to the law in your country.

Secondly, everyone experiences software differently because many computers are different. Uploading files to a server can cause wear and tear on servers as well files can go mia whilst uploading. That is just part of the process. Adjusting fixes for each computer , console, and so on can be nerve wracking. Not to mention the people developing these games are still people. 

 The point is, if a customer is not explicitly warned in a clear way that the purchase might not work and the product doesn't work as promised (example, you pay for a sub, but the servers have problems the first week), they have a right on a refund in most countries according to the law. Those companies' excuses shouldn't matter in this.

They need to take care of themselves and their families as well. So there is always room for error and if you cannot expect that than your thought process is flawed greatly. At the same time no one is forcing you to buy said video game. No one is putting a  gun to your head to buy this game. Most games now days also have demos or trials.  Play one of those before spending your money on a game. It is impossible to have a 100% bug free, confrontation free launch of any game. Because shit happens. Companies have to deal with it as it happens. 

The underlined part has nothing to do with this discussion at all. This is an issue between company and customer, not between some employee and customer. The rest of this paragraph is nonsense. If you buy a product, the product has to work as intended. But you are right about your last sentence. Companies have to deal with it as it happens, so customers can expect a refund if the company screws up their release and their customers can't play their game.

Some companies have shitty customer service and or dont deal with the problems as well or as fast as others. 

 

I do agree that game development even design has become more of making it look pretty and hoping the players dont notice the other crap. Don't get me wrong I like pretty graphics but games have become more about the graphics than the gameplay.  Game Studios constantly fighting political battles between themselves. Usually when studios battle the consumer wins but not in all cases. Sometimes its the exact opposite. 

My point in all this is, devs. designers are people just like you. Human error is always a possibillity and thinking there is no room for error then your wrong. 

Im sure that everyone agrees with this part. But again, this has nothing to do with how those companies treat their customers. You pay your sub, but you can't access the game you are paying for, you have a right on a refund or return of said product if the reason that you can't access it, lies with the company.

MMO consumers continue to throw money at companies who produce flawed products.  By flawed I mean seriously so, not "Has some bugs" because that will always be the case.  As long as people keep paying, then all the complaining will accomplish nothing towards changing this state of affairs.

Unstable mmo launches are not a concern to me, because I realize that these games are so big and with so many people connecting at the same time, that it's simply impossible to make a product which will just plain work like everyday after few weeks. There's no software nor hardware that can do this, to think of it, mmorpg launches are like concentrated connection attack on the servers that are used to bring down servers often with malicious intent on other occasions.

SWTOR tried another approach which worked wonders imo. They let people in, in smaller batches over a long period of time. Everything was stabile and technical errors, huge loads and stuff like that except some queues were working fine. Even then the whining was ridicilous since people didnt get to play on that second. They want to rush in with millions of others and that just does not work.

Looking at this realistically, it is what it is. Either you piss of people by letting them in as smaller groups, or you piss of people by letting them all in and the game becoming unstable. As the games company you cant win in an mmorpg launch. I dont personally like my new mmo crashing and not working on launch day, but when that happens, I also kinda understand that. Just let the phase pass.