- The tolerance for teammembers that are plain out stupid wore thin after playing MMOs for a decade.

- Thanks to the lockout mechanics nightmare groups are especially afraid of wasting their time with players that can't perform in the required role. The first minibosses drop junk but start the lockout.

Originally posted by Abye

- The tolerance for teammembers that are plain out stupid wore thin after playing MMOs for a decade.

- Thanks to the lockout mechanics nightmare groups are especially afraid of wasting their time with players that can't perform in the required role. The first minibosses drop junk but start the lockout.

These are solid points.

My personal addition is that it depends on what kinds of mood I am in at the time. Sometimes I want every team member to play as well as i do, other times I just want to faceroll and chat on vent without a second thought.

When we did real (progression) raids in WoW i expected absolute perfection. I expected mistakes and people to get used to the fight. However what I couldn't stand were the people who repeatedly failed to avoid one mechanic or another. If you are that bad get rid of all your gear, disenchant it and stop raiding.

When we went to do older content I couldn't care less what you were doing we'd charge into rooms with half a raid outside.

It's not really elitism.  Employers behave the exact same way when they're looking for job applicants.  Nobody wants to take in the new guy and to train him when they can get an expert who can do the job with twice the efficiency.  

You can do like I do and just join anyway, hoping you don't royally screw up, or you can try to find a guild or a buddy to run with you.

Originally posted by SuperXero89

It's not really elitism.  Employers behave the exact same way when they're looking for job applicants.  Nobody wants to take in the new guy and to train him when they can get an expert who can do the job with twice the efficiency.  

You can do like I do and just join anyway, hoping you don't royally screw up, or you can try to find a guild or a buddy to run with you.

Thats not true at all. Many companies prefer to hire someone and train them than employ someone with an existing skill set.

Why? Many reasons:

You can employ someone much cheaper and then train them up and they will still be on a much lower wage once trained.

"Experienced" can often mean they not only have developed bad habits, but they will actually need to be almost completely retrained anyway to work to the new companies protocols instead of those they have been using previously, all the time commanding a higher wage.

Why is this person looking for a job? If he gains the training at one company and bails for another job, whats to stop him doing exactly the same again? Employing a youger hungrier person and training them up will usually retain their services longer than employing potential journeymen.

There are other reasons, but certainly "nobody wants to take in the new guy" is just not true.

Originally posted by Zinzan

Originally posted by SuperXero89

It's not really elitism.  Employers behave the exact same way when they're looking for job applicants.  Nobody wants to take in the new guy and to train him when they can get an expert who can do the job with twice the efficiency.  

You can do like I do and just join anyway, hoping you don't royally screw up, or you can try to find a guild or a buddy to run with you.

Thats not true at all. Many companies prefer to hire someone and train them than employ someone with an existing skill set.

Why? Many reasons:

You can employ someone much cheaper and then train them up and they will still be on a much lower wage once trained.

"Experienced" can often mean they not only have developed bad habits, but they will actually need to be almost completely retrained anyway to work to the new companies protocols instead of those they have been using previously, all the time commanding a higher wage.

Why is this person looking for a job? If he gains the training at one company and bails for another job, whats to stop him doing exactly the same again? Employing a youger hungrier person and training them up will usually retain their services longer than employing potential journeymen.

There are other reasons, but certainly "nobody wants to take in the new guy" is just not true.

And you also kind of make my point by comparing a game to a job ... I play to relax and have fun, and while I *have* in the past chased the raiding wheel ,  I really dont want to play a game I have to take an interview for , and might get *fired* if my version of fun differs from someone else

I haven't run into this issue myself - at least not in any way that made me feel offended or left out.

Generally, i try to be conscious of my capabilities and experience.  If i don't know what I'm doing, i will warn the group and ask for instructions. 

I'm not high enough to run Elites and Nightmares yet, but before I do, I will make sure to know as much as I can about what kind of spec I need to run in order not to be a detriment to any group.

My idea of fun may not be as hardcore as someone else's, but my idea of fun certainly doesn't involve sabotaging other people's chances to succeed in a dungeon because I'm clueless.  If i need to learn, I'll the dungeon with people willing to teach me.  

At this point in time, I don't know what it takes to run many of the dungeons, so until I know better, i'll assume that the people running it know better.  Once i learn to run the dungeons myself and know better, i'll tell people to fuck off when their demands are unreasonable.  But even then, it's still THEIR group - and if they want to group only with people that have run the instance 552+ times, use Shotguns and wear pink t-shirts - well, it's their business.

Ultimately this is one of the GOOD thigns about TSW - your skill and knowledge actually matter and help you succeed (or fail).  I recently played some GW2 and was just completely disgusted by the fact that regardless of who was good and who sucked or how well you did, everyone got the same exact reward for event.  People were lying on the ground dead the entire time and still "succeeded".   It was completely retarded and i would never want TSW to be like that.

Originally posted by arieste

Ultimately this is one of the GOOD thigns about TSW - your skill and knowledge actually matter and help you succeed (or fail).  I recently played some GW2 and was just completely disgusted by the fact that regardless of who was good and who sucked or how well you did, everyone got the same exact reward for event.  People were lying on the ground dead the entire time and still "succeeded".   It was completely retarded and i would never want TSW to be like that.

 

I find this kind of thinking really alien. My only concern when it comes to assesing performance/reward is whether I got my own performance appropriately rewarded. I could care less if the guy next to me got over-rewarded.

Besides... that's not realy accurate about GW2. There are levels of "participation" in events with 3 levels of rewards.

I don't think you're getting that GW2 is trying to break the current MMO conventions where it's you against the monsters AND the supposed ally next to you who just stole your Ultimate Metal of Winning node or tagged the Necessary Boss of Ultra Slow Spawning first: It's designed from the ground up to be cooperative, not cut-throat competitive. Arenanet is trying to create an anti-WOW community with less asshattery.

And this thread about TSW is a pretty damn good example of why they're going out of their way to do that: the WOW way of doing things complete with gear scores and content elitism--always rationalized and justified by lock-outs--creates overly competitive, anti-social and downright nasty communities. Ironic in a game genre where cooperative grouping is supposed to be the norm.

Its probably already been said but the best thing you can do is find a guild(cabal).

Personally, I'd rather speed through then beeing held back dragging someone who didn't know what they were doing. Elitist if you like, I don't mind if your not the best but I hate when people don't even try and pretty much make me suffer for their desire to be useless or afk every 5 minutes for 10 minute breaks. It annoys me wasting time for that 1 person who doesn't seem to even want to play and just get carried through or generally hold back the group for their own personal reasons.

Originally posted by Iselin

Originally posted by arieste

Ultimately this is one of the GOOD thigns about TSW - your skill and knowledge actually matter and help you succeed (or fail).  I recently played some GW2 and was just completely disgusted by the fact that regardless of who was good and who sucked or how well you did, everyone got the same exact reward for event.  People were lying on the ground dead the entire time and still "succeeded".   It was completely retarded and i would never want TSW to be like that.

 

I find this kind of thinking really alien. My only concern when it comes to assesing performance/reward is whether I got my own performance appropriately rewarded. I could care less if the guy next to me got over-rewarded.

 

Besides... that's not realy accurate about GW2. There are levels of "participation" in events with 3 levels of rewards.

 

I don't think you're getting that GW2 is trying to break the current MMO conventions where it's you against the monsters AND the supposed ally next to you who just stole your Ultimate Metal of Winning node or tagged the Necessary Boss of Ultra Slow Spawning first: It's designed from the ground up to be cooperative, not cut-throat competitive. Arenanet is trying to create an anti-WOW community with less asshattery.

 

And this thread about TSW is a pretty damn good example of why they're going out of their way to do that: the WOW way of doing things complete with gear scores and content elitism--always rationalized and justified by lock-outs--creates overly competitive, anti-social and downright nasty communities. Ironic in a game genre where cooperative grouping is supposed to be the norm.

I think this is an excellent example of the erroneous belief that no matter how GW2 does it, it's the perfect cure-all for everything.  There are jerks in TSW, and there will be jerks in GW2.

The claims you're making will only be true in GW2 if:

1. It's impossible to fail an instance in GW2 - you get all loot from an instance whether you kill a boss or not.  Given that GW2 is one of the easiest games I've ever played, this might not be too far from the truth.

2. Instances only take 10 minutes or less to complete, no matter how good the players are.  If the time is made standard, then the speed of an instance run becomes inconsequential.  I doubt this is the case.

Like TSW, there is PvE gear progression in GW2.  While ANet does appear to be setting up the ultimate EZ-mode "Monty Haul" loot rules, time and success will still be a factor.  As a result, the same "problems" will arise in GW2 that are being complained about with TSW.

Originally posted by Iselin

Originally posted by arieste

Ultimately this is one of the GOOD thigns about TSW - your skill and knowledge actually matter and help you succeed (or fail).  I recently played some GW2 and was just completely disgusted by the fact that regardless of who was good and who sucked or how well you did, everyone got the same exact reward for event.  People were lying on the ground dead the entire time and still "succeeded".   It was completely retarded and i would never want TSW to be like that.

 

I find this kind of thinking really alien. My only concern when it comes to assesing performance/reward is whether I got my own performance appropriately rewarded. I could care less if the guy next to me got over-rewarded.

 

Besides... that's not realy accurate about GW2. There are levels of "participation" in events with 3 levels of rewards.

 

I don't think you're getting that GW2 is trying to break the current MMO conventions where it's you against the monsters AND the supposed ally next to you who just stole your Ultimate Metal of Winning node or tagged the Necessary Boss of Ultra Slow Spawning first: It's designed from the ground up to be cooperative, not cut-throat competitive. Arenanet is trying to create an anti-WOW community with less asshattery.

 

And this thread about TSW is a pretty damn good example of why they're going out of their way to do that: the WOW way of doing things complete with gear scores and content elitism--always rationalized and justified by lock-outs--creates overly competitive, anti-social and downright nasty communities. Ironic in a game genre where cooperative grouping is supposed to be the norm.

I don't know about the "WoW way" of doing things as i've never played WoW nor have any interest in trying it.

What i do know is that rewarding people for being idiots or for not contributing is stupid.    I'm all for games being co-operative.  But "cooperation" to me is X-number of players, using their skills together to defeat a challenge that they couldn't have taken on alone.   The reward should go to the dragonslayers, not the people who showed up, watched and asked for rezzes when they got in the way.

We are playing games.  Games have rules and require skills to play.  Games have winners and losers.  That is what makes them games.   I agree that everyone should have fun playing.  I don't agree that everyone should win.  If everyone wins, the game is meaningless.  

Aslo, just FYI - most "current game conventions" do not actually have ultra-slow-spawning mobs that need to be tagged or they are lost.  Instancing has solved that problem a long time ago, so now everyone gets a chance to compete against the encounter, which is how it should be.  I'm sure there are a few contest raid encounters scattered here and there to appease the truly hardcore - and that's probably how it should be, after all, the hardcore crowd are people too, so it's only fair that they get some content.  

TSW was the last straw for me.

I have been playing MMO's since UO and for the last couple of years each new game has failed to hold my attention more than a month or two. After much soul searching I have come to the conclusion that it's not the game design as much as it is the "new" generation that plays them. No matter what the game devs try to design they can't dictate how people will play their game or interact with each other.

Time to find a new hobby..

Originally posted by arieste

We are playing games.  Games have rules and require skills to play.  Games have winners and losers.  That is what makes them games.   I agree that everyone should have fun playing.  I don't agree that everyone should win.  If everyone wins, the game is meaningless.  

Wow! What an amazingly selfish attitude.

Don't you realize that everyone feels the same way? If "everyone" does not win then "everyone" goes and does something else with their leisure time that is more enjoyable.

It's a game dude. It ain't a job or the army.

Honestly, most elite groups, REALLY dont care if you are not the 100% uber McAwsomeStats. 

Just know your role, have skills that allow you to fill your role, and have some gear that lets you complete your role.

pretty much every group ive been in all I do is respond to their request for a DPS/Healer with a Ill heal/DPS and I get an invite.

NMs is where you get this, havent done any myself, but from the sounds of it they are fairly tightly tuned so everyone needs to be on their A game with certain skills (interrupts, cleanses, purges) to make beating them possible.  Add to that a hefty lockout, and the tollerance for failed attempts goes way down.

Originally posted by Iselin

 If "everyone" does not win then "everyone" goes and does something else with their leisure time that is more enjoyable.

[mod edit] If you don't win, you do something else?  Seriously? Just because i didn't "win" at having the job that pays the most or the most beautiful girl, i should kill myself?  Just because my D-league softball team loses a lot, i shouldn't play?  Sorry, you may do that, but for me - no, thanks. 

If i don't win, I still enjoy what i'm doing and still have fun at it.  Sure, I try to improve and do better, but i don't give up or quit just because i didn't win.  Nor do i expect to be given the same reward as those that did win.

I've never been - or have been interested in being - in a "hardcore" guild in an MMO.  Never.  So I haven't killed the top content first and I haven't had the top DPS or biggest epeen or whatever.  But that doesn't mean that I don't enjoy what I do.  I do.  And guess what, i may not be the best, but I also like to think I'm not the worst.  So I like my rewards and achievements to reflect both of those facts - I think i should achieve more than the idiots and get better rewards than the idiots, while at the same time, I am fully ok with the fact that the people who are better than me achieve more than me and are rewarded better than me.  

If you want to bring absolutely nothing to a group and still win and still be rewarded, i'm sorry, i want no part of grouping with you.  And I'm not elitist, I just don't like grouping with people that have no personal accountability and leech off others.  Which brings me to my next point...

How is it that it's ok for you to NOT want "elitists" in your group (or game), but it's NOT ok for them to not want YOU?  

Personally, I'm for "live and let live".  If people don't want me in their group, I don't need to be there.  They're paying for the game, they can play with whoever they want.  I'll get other people that share MY mindset and play the game with them.  Really, I suggest you do the same.

Elitists are the carebears of PvE.

As me and my buddies were working our way though the first few instances we would advertise for people who had never run the instance before. About half the time those who joined would ask, why? Because we wanted to experience and learn the instance for ourselves the first time. We wanted to be surprised by the boss and fail a few times and have to figure it out.  We were also searching high and low for the lore objects and found all of them without outside help.

These runs were genuinely the most fun I have had in a game in a long, long time.

People really need to learn to chill out and enjoy themselves. It is a game after all.

I haven't seen this sort of behavior (thankfully).  The only elitism I've witnessed has been isolated to cabals (as where it should be).

I try to make my own groups.  As a healer... its easy to get a rag-tag group together.  DPSs are a dime a dozen.  There seems to always be at least 1 tank looking.  In fact, its been a breath of fresh air coming from FF14 where everything worthwhile requires a full group - and therefore finding a group can take at least 1-2 hrs.

Yesterday I had some d-bag tell me to list all of my current active and passive skills for him before I would be allowed to tank for the group.  I had already done Ankh like six times, and even with a lazy healer I could tank with no problem. 

I laughed at him and told him to pick someone else, that  I was here to have fun not argue with spreadsheet players. 

Originally posted by arieste

Originally posted by Iselin

 If "everyone" does not win then "everyone" goes and does something else with their leisure time that is more enjoyable.

This is idiotic.  If you don't win, you do something else?  Seriously? Just because i didn't "win" at having the job that pays the most or the most beautiful girl, i should kill myself?  Just because my D-league softball team loses a lot, i shouldn't play?  Sorry, you may do that, but for me - no, thanks. 

 

If i don't win, I still enjoy what i'm doing and still have fun at it.  Sure, I try to improve and do better, but i don't give up or quit just because i didn't win.  Nor do i expect to be given the same reward as those that did win.

 

I've never been - or have been interested in being - in a "hardcore" guild in an MMO.  Never.  So I haven't killed the top content first and I haven't had the top DPS or biggest epeen or whatever.  But that doesn't mean that I don't enjoy what I do.  I do.  And guess what, i may not be the best, but I also like to think I'm not the worst.  So I like my rewards and achievements to reflect both of those facts - I think i should achieve more than the idiots and get better rewards than the idiots, while at the same time, I am fully ok with the fact that the people who are better than me achieve more than me and are rewarded better than me.  

 

If you want to bring absolutely nothing to a group and still win and still be rewarded, i'm sorry, i want no part of grouping with you.  And I'm not elitist, I just don't like grouping with people that have no personal accountability and leech off others.  Which brings me to my next point...

 

How is it that it's ok for you to NOT want "elitists" in your group (or game), but it's NOT ok for them to not want YOU?  

 

Personally, I'm for "live and let live".  If people don't want me in their group, I don't need to be there.  They're paying for the game, they can play with whoever they want.  I'll get other people that share MY mindset and play the game with them.  Really, I suggest you do the same.

No. You're the one not getting it. And I don't need a wall'o'text to tell you why: it's a game.

Why do you think all MMOs have personal story quest lines that are all about you being the hero? Did you think those quests were just for you? lol. It's fantasy. And part of that fantasy is that you're the hero and always, always, unltimately the winner.

Your "winners and losers" garbabge is just regurgitated Ayn Rand real word corporate garbage applied to gaming: to interactive entertainment that is barely different from reading a boook or watching a film. I suppose some people wnated to be just like Voldemort ( or at least claim so just to get some attention ) but 99.9% of us identified with Harry. Think of Voldemort as an NPC and maybe you'll start to get it.

Elitists are jerks. And the honest ones admit it and call themselves just that at their min/max website.

There are other MMOs out there (hint: they have gearscore add-ons...sometimes they're not even add-ons) and FPS games with "ladders" that cater to you... go play those. The sooner you guys get bored with TSW and leave, the sooner the real TSW community can have fun playing with other people who get it.