Originally posted by otinanai123

 

Actually WoW didn't start with a dungeon finder and it was totally different. After a while we all knew each other on the server and many of us became friends. We knew who was good and who sucked so our groups became better and better. It was like the server was one big guild.  When they implemented it everyone became a stranger again.

again that's your perspective I would say it boils down to more to what I posted right above this. Once people ran dungeons a couple times it stops being about enjoying them and about getting through them as fast as possible to hopefully get the drop you wanted

Originally posted by Creslin321

Originally posted by Aerowyn

Originally posted by otinanai123

I find that dungeon finders make games anti-social (best examples: WoW and D3). You press a button and join a group with people you will never see again, Nobody actually talks and if there's a wipe people leave without saying a word. It turns people into robots. 

guess what? PLENTY of groups I have played in games with no dungeon finder tool nobody said a word after the group was put together and plenty everyone talked in both cases. The tool is just that a tool the social aspect is up to the person.

Bingo.

I remember being in tons of groups in EQ where it was like dead silence, or even verbal abuse from one the members that was a douche/elitist.  So it's like you say...socialization if up to the people involved.

Some good points, however this is somewhat of a complex issue.

While the dungeon finder is just a tool, it does remove some of the incentives to socialize from dungeon groups. What's most likely to happen is that story-mode groups will get impacted by this the most. Explorable mode dungeons will still require quite a bit of communication, because they are supposedly much harder, and require a lot more strategy and preparation. People may not even use the tool for explorables, because they will want to find skilled players over filling slots.

Basically, the dungeon finder tool (in it's current iteration), is a great tool for games that don't require much skill or prep, have rigid roles (tank,healer,dps), and thus it's very easy to categorize players. It would have to be seriously revamped (and made much more complex) to handle the needs of some of the dungeons in this game. Because, individual classes aren't as important as having the right combination of skills, and the right stats backing them up.

- Basically, a dungeon finder tool isn't going to encourage socialization, and is actually a tool to bypass it to some extent (as you're not using the chat to try and find groups). While this isn't bad from a convenience standpoint, it is a downside to be aware of.

Originally posted by Ambros123

Originally posted by Aerowyn

Originally posted by otinanai123

Originally posted by Aerowyn

Originally posted by otinanai123

I find that dungeon finders make games anti-social (best examples: WoW and D3). You press a button and join a group with people you will never see again, Nobody actually talks and if there's a wipe people leave without saying a word. It turns people into robots. 

guess what? PLENTY of groups I have played in games with no dungeon finder tool nobody said a word after the group was put together and plenty everyone talked in both cases. The tool is just that a tool the social aspect is up to the person.

Yeah that happened to me too. Sometimes people say "noobs" or "u suck" before ragequitting.

same happens in games with or without a dungeon finder... again it's just a tool the people behind the keyboard doesn't change based on a tool. If you are social and encourage it others will be social.. In many cases I noticed al lI had to do is crack a few jokes or something and it would get everyone in the group talking it's not hard to inspire some communication within a group of random people.

Been there before and after the Dungeon Finder and the quality of groups did degenerate.  In BC people actually talked and planned and teamwork was there... Dungeon Finder not so as it was just one giant speed run/zerg fest without a word spoken between the party.  Now this of course could be the shift in dungeon difficulty but I do find people a lot less social in these groupds as people are like "okay, lets get this done so I can queue up again."  Which imagine how well the dungeon finder would have worked if they kept the BC difficulty of dungeons/heroics.

It would have worked just the same, the quality of the group may degenerate in your opinion because you now have way more people queueing up while before joe, bob and jim shouted all day in orgrimmar and never got a group because their gear was below what the group leader considers acceptable and he hadnt done the kill 50k people achievement so they were left out, when they added the LFG tool joe, bob and jim got a group almost instantly so now Michael which previously did not accept them into the group is upset because he now has no choice to veto other players despite the game considering them of an acceptable level to join.

At the end of the day if you despise other people you dont consider good enough in your group then it might be a bad idea to use a tool that randomly/arbitrarily matches people in your group that you may not necessarily like to play with. It is not the tool's fault it is your fault in a way, "Click here if you would like to be matched up with 4 other random players to complete a dungeon", "Damnit blizzard why did you match me up with these 4 other players I wanted only players with golden shoes!".

Originally posted by aesperus

 

Some good points, however this is somewhat of a complex issue.

While the dungeon finder is just a tool, it does remove some of the incentives to socialize from dungeon groups. What's most likely to happen is that story-mode groups will get impacted by this the most. Explorable mode dungeons will still require quite a bit of communication, because they are supposedly much harder, and require a lot more strategy and preparation. People may not even use the tool for explorables, because they will want to find skilled players over filling slots.

Basically, the dungeon finder tool (in it's current iteration), is a great tool for games that don't require much skill or prep, have rigid roles (tank,healer,dps), and thus it's very easy to categorize players. It would have to be seriously revamped (and made much more complex) to handle the needs of some of the dungeons in this game. Because, individual classes aren't as important as having the right combination of skills, and the right stats backing them up.

- Basically, a dungeon finder tool isn't going to encourage socialization, and is actually a tool to bypass it to some extent (as you're not using the chat to try and find groups). While this isn't bad from a convenience standpoint, it is a downside to be aware of.

still not seeing the downside.. you have no way to know the person you just matched up with spamming chat is any more skilled than the player you just got matched with in a LFD tool. Big difference is if that person you just spammed chat for an hour to find bails because of RL issues the group isn't just stuck with spamming chat again and can easily que up for another person and get back ino the game. People who want to make sure they play with skilled people play with friends or guildmates you know sinple as that. Doesn't matter how you form a group with complete strangers in the end they are complete strangers and you have no clue what you are getting into in either case. I have played these games for over a decade and I never found spamming chat to form groups "improves" the quality of people you find in anyway.

Originally posted by Raven

At the end of the day if you despise other people you dont consider good enough in your group then it might be a bad idea to use a tool that randomly/arbitrarily matches people in your group that you may not necessarily like to play with. It is not the tool's fault it is your fault in a way, "Click here if you would like to be matched up with 4 other random players to complete a dungeon", "Damnit blizzard why did you match me up with these 4 other players I wanted only players with golden shoes!".

"Are you sure, you're probably way too 'leet for these guys (y/n)"

"Are you REALLY sure?  They're probably gonna suck (y/n)"

"Are you gonna run to the forums and write a 'PuGs Suck!' post right after you're done (y/n)"

"Do you have anger control issues? (y/n)"

"Don't you have any nice guildies to group with right now?  You'd be happier (y/n)"

"We don't offer a money-back guarantee of completion, is that ok (y/n)"

"You might even wipe for a dumb reason (y/n)"

"Ok then, if you're really really really sure (y/n)"

In the end, it's a situation where no one can win.  But it's certainly, without a doubt, all the tool's fault.

Originally posted by Aerowyn

still not seeing the downside.. you have no way to know the person you just matched up with spamming chat is any more skilled than the player you just got matched with in a LFD tool. Big difference is if that person you just spammed chat for an hour to find bails because of RL issues the group isn't just stuck with spamming chat again and can easily que up for another person and get back ino the game. People who want to make sure they play with skilled people play with friends or guildmates you know sinple as that. Doesn't matter how you form a group with complete strangers in the end they are complete strangers and you have no clue what you are getting into in either case.

Downside is that it just fills slots.

You won't know if a person is good or not until you talk to them.

For example, maybe you're group is fairly well setup, but what you really need is some more CC for certain bosses, and maybe a little extra damage wouldn't hurt. Well, what you keep getting is a ranger, and then a necro, and then more rangers, or maybe an elementalist, when what you really need is something like a thief w/ the basilisk venom traited. These are types of scenarios that dungeon finder tools aren't currently good at handling.

Like I said, that'll probably work alright for story modes. For explorables it'll most likely be a different story. Maybe it will be a thing where it's mostly just guildiess running tight-knit groups. Hard to say. But the skill aspect of this game means that you need to be a lot more careful about PUGing the more difficult content. It's not that you can't do it, but you need to actually talk to the people you are inviting and judge how they seem based on the response. It's not unlike if you were to hire someone. You ask them some questions (often unrelated to what's going on), to get a judge of their character. If they seem like the type of person that knows their stuff, then chances are good that they'll deliver. It might not be as efficient as a guild group that have played together for 3 years on TS. But it'll work.

So, such a tool will probably work alright for storymodes, but for explorables this tool will probably not be used much, as it makes it more difficult to find good enough players than it would be to talk to them (because there's no really reliable baseline for skill). And explorables are where you will be running the dungeons the most, because that's where you get all the fancy loot from.

Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

Originally posted by Rivalen

You can't really compare GW2 grouping to other games and there is where you're confusing the need for a dungeon finder.

 

GW2 will need it more then any other MMo out there...

That's personal opinion.  Frankly, I voted No.  I have enough friends to complete dungeons without rehashing my bad experiences with WoW's dungeon finder.

Originally posted by Eir_S

Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

Originally posted by Rivalen

You can't really compare GW2 grouping to other games and there is where you're confusing the need for a dungeon finder.

 

GW2 will need it more then any other MMo out there...

That's personal opinion.  Frankly, I voted No.  I have enough friends to complete dungeons without rehashing my bad experiences with WoW's dungeon finder.

Honestly, I think if they just revamped their LFG tool it'd be enough.

If the LFG tool had some UI with the ability to put comments near your name, then you could just go about your business while waiting. Another downside (that I wasn't really thinking about initially) is that it condenses the population into centralized areas, and thus removes the incentives for people to go back to some of the lower zones.

Originally posted by aesperus

Originally posted by Aerowyn

still not seeing the downside.. you have no way to know the person you just matched up with spamming chat is any more skilled than the player you just got matched with in a LFD tool. Big difference is if that person you just spammed chat for an hour to find bails because of RL issues the group isn't just stuck with spamming chat again and can easily que up for another person and get back ino the game. People who want to make sure they play with skilled people play with friends or guildmates you know sinple as that. Doesn't matter how you form a group with complete strangers in the end they are complete strangers and you have no clue what you are getting into in either case.

Downside is that it just fills slots.

You won't know if a person is good or not until you talk to them.

For example, maybe you're group is fairly well setup, but what you really need is some more CC for certain bosses, and maybe a little extra damage wouldn't hurt. Well, what you keep getting is a ranger, and then a necro, and then more rangers, or maybe an elementalist, when what you really need is something like a thief w/ the basilisk venom traited. These are types of scenarios that dungeon finder tools aren't currently good at handling.

Like I said, that'll probably work alright for story modes. For explorables it'll most likely be a different story. Maybe it will be a thing where it's mostly just guildiess running tight-knit groups. Hard to say. But the skill aspect of this game means that you need to be a lot more careful about PUGing the more difficult content. It's not that you can't do it, but you need to actually talk to the people you are inviting and judge how they seem based on the response. It's not unlike if you were to hire someone. You ask them some questions (often unrelated to what's going on), to get a judge of their character. If they seem like the type of person that knows their stuff, then chances are good that they'll deliver. It might not be as efficient as a guild group that have played together for 3 years on TS. But it'll work.

So, again, such a tool will probably work alright for storymodes, but for explorables this tool will probably not be used much, as it makes it more difficult to find good enough players than it would be to talk to them (because there's no really reliable baseline for skill). And explorables are where you will be running the dungeons the most, because that's where you get all the fancy loot from.

which is just game design and not really anything against a LFG tool. Same with the example above about wow and someone only wanting specific people in their group. Again if really boils down to how the game is designed if the class system is designed in a way almost any class can fill any roll and equipment isn't such a big impact I think you won't run into this issue as often. If games like wow where equipment is key you run into the issues of not only getting random unskilled players but also undergeared + unskilled. In a game like GW2 it's more about strategy and positioning than gear. I can see how if players don't communicate in this type of game in harder dungeons it could be a major problem but again nothing to do with the LFG tool..

Originally posted by Eir_S

Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

Originally posted by Rivalen

You can't really compare GW2 grouping to other games and there is where you're confusing the need for a dungeon finder.

 

GW2 will need it more then any other MMo out there...

That's personal opinion.  Frankly, I voted No.  I have enough friends to complete dungeons without rehashing my bad experiences with WoW's dungeon finder.

It doesnt mean you wont login one day and no one is online and you just wanna go for a quick run, I dont see how the dungeon tool can be a worse experience than spending 30min sitting in town shouting then getting into an incomplete group, spend another 30min while the leader tries to find more people, run into the instance only to find out that one guy goes afk the minute you enter the instance, the other 2 never done it, and the 4th needs to go for dinner in 15min and keeps ninja pulling.

At least with the tool you can queue get a group, if it starts going into the realms of insanity just leave, I was pretty reasonable when it came to WoW, gave it a good chance before just randomly leaving if it was going too far or outrageous stuff happens just leave and requeue, most if not all the groups I left the requeue timer was already long gone before I left.

If I want to do a specific instance challenge or just generally do the instance at a slower pace or with a specific objective then I wont queue with random people, I will just go with the people I play with. I dont think the dungeon finder is really meant for these deep bonding experiences that people are talking about, that is a design problem, if they wanted dungeons to be a deep challenging life bonding experience then they wouldnt have made them mandatory to be run 5 times a day to get badges or whatever, I mean raids on the other hand at least used to be a more bonding experience and what people talk about, you made friends and added people to your friends list while organizing raids and overcoming the challenges. And the same goes for really harder dungeons with much bigger and long term challenges, not just raids.

The last thing I want is to be stationed in Lions Arch spamming LFG. SWTOR tried it that way and let me tell you having to be in the fleet to find a group sucked. Its much nicer to be out in the world doing your thing than spamming LFG in a stationary spot. SWTOR finally realized that and fixed it. ANET will to at some point.

Originally posted by Creslin321

I don't really consider standing in Lion's Arch spamming "Level 50 Guardian LFG for dungeons" to be socializing...so I voted yes for dungeon finder ;).  I never understood why so many people have an issue with dungeon finder.

Its the type of dungeon finders that people have trouble with. The kind that make it easy for those that do so to insta quit group becuase there not moving fast enough or a mob didnt drop a piece of gear they may have wanted. These "throw away" groups i like to call them.

Just with like items made today. If something breaks people just throw it in the trash insted of fixing it. From tvs to end tables. There mass produced pieces of crap that people just dont care about and thats how i feel these groups in MMOs have become. Mass produced pieces of crap that if broken, people dont feel its worth there time to try and fix.

The biggest issue with dungeon finders is it ruins the community and ruins the social aspects of gameplay. Getting paired up with some random people, on a random server is stupid. The point of an MMO is to make friends and play with them. If you can't do this, you shouldn't be playing an MMO.

It isn't hard to find a group anyways, you just do a few shouts and boom, you should get one. Or freaking get in a guild or use your friend's list ... Dungeon finders are for those that can't, let them rot, I say.

---

Originally posted by Istavaan
Dungeon finder tools kills community interaction, its the worst thing to happen to mmo's.

---

GW2 is probably the best MMO for a Dungeon Finder too. Just get 5 people and go. No need to wait 30 minutes for a tank.

Originally posted by Raven

Originally posted by Eir_S

Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

Originally posted by Rivalen

You can't really compare GW2 grouping to other games and there is where you're confusing the need for a dungeon finder.

 

GW2 will need it more then any other MMo out there...

That's personal opinion.  Frankly, I voted No.  I have enough friends to complete dungeons without rehashing my bad experiences with WoW's dungeon finder.

It doesnt mean you wont login one day and no one is online and you just wanna go for a quick run, I dont see how the dungeon tool can be a worse experience than spending 30min sitting in town shouting then getting into an incomplete group, spend another 30min while the leader tries to find more people, run into the instance only to find out that one guy goes afk the minute you enter the instance, the other 2 never done it, and the 4th needs to go for dinner in 15min and keeps ninja pulling.

That's a good point I hadn't thought of.  The problem with the uncolored part is that, the dungeon finder is only a potentially quicker way to get the same disappointment - ie: people who are bad at the game or in many cases, just really really rude.  

My issue is with the statement (not yours) that GW2 will "need [a dungeon finder] more then any other MMo out there" when that's totally in the realm of speculation.  GW1 never had a dungeon finder, and I've never once heard my friend, who has played it since it launched, complain.

Also, I'm not sure how a WoW-esque dungeon finder would stimulate server bonds, as ANet is looking to do with WvW and basic "everyone help everyone" DE's.  If the dungeon finder stuck to one server, it might work - it would potentially strengthen the community and keep people from acting like jackasses like they did in WoW because they knew they'd probably never have to deal with anyone in the group again.

I don't think it's necessarily a BAD idea overall, I mean look how ANet changed the basic "stand around in the Auction House" to "Auction House on the go".  If anyone can improve the LFD feature, it's these guys, but I'm not convinced yet.

Sorry, but I disagree with your other comments about raids promoting more "life-bonding" experiences.  For the most part, every raid I was ever a part of degenerated into a cussing match, even with people I considered friends.  The 5 mans were overall so much more fun.

Originally posted by Xiaoki

No need to wait 30 minutes for a tank.

lol

there is nothing wrong with making it easier to get people in groups but ffs do not instant teleport them inside the effing instance. also no cross server dungoen finder, it completely kills the comunity.

Originally posted by Jakdstripper

there is nothing wrong with making it easier to get people in groups but ffs do not instant teleport them inside the effing instance. also no cross server dungoen finder, it completely kills the comunity.

Agreed 100%.

Originally posted by Eir_S

Originally posted by Raven

Originally posted by Eir_S

Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

Originally posted by Rivalen

You can't really compare GW2 grouping to other games and there is where you're confusing the need for a dungeon finder.

 

GW2 will need it more then any other MMo out there...

That's personal opinion.  Frankly, I voted No.  I have enough friends to complete dungeons without rehashing my bad experiences with WoW's dungeon finder.

It doesnt mean you wont login one day and no one is online and you just wanna go for a quick run, I dont see how the dungeon tool can be a worse experience than spending 30min sitting in town shouting then getting into an incomplete group, spend another 30min while the leader tries to find more people, run into the instance only to find out that one guy goes afk the minute you enter the instance, the other 2 never done it, and the 4th needs to go for dinner in 15min and keeps ninja pulling.

That's a good point I hadn't thought of.  The problem with the uncolored part is that, the dungeon finder is only a potentially quicker way to get the same disappointment - ie: people who are bad at the game or in many cases, just really really rude.  

My issue is with the statement (not yours) that GW2 will "need [a dungeon finder] more then any other MMo out there" when that's totally in the realm of speculation.  GW1 never had a dungeon finder, and I've never once heard my friend, who has played it since it launched, complain.

Also, I'm not sure how a WoW-esque dungeon finder would stimulate server bonds, as ANet is looking to do with WvW and basic "everyone help everyone" DE's.  If the dungeon finder stuck to one server, it might work - it would potentially strengthen the community and keep people from acting like jackasses like they did in WoW because they knew they'd probably never have to deal with anyone in the group again.

I don't think it's necessarily a BAD idea overall, I mean look how ANet changed the basic "stand around in the Auction House" to "Auction House on the go".  If anyone can improve the LFD feature, it's these guys, but I'm not convinced yet.

Sorry, but I disagree with your other comments about raids promoting more "life-bonding" experiences.  For the most part, every raid I was ever a part of degenerated into a cussing match, even with people I considered friends.  The 5 mans were overall so much more fun.

GW2 offers a similar "meet up" feature to TSW allowing you to group up with people on any server just can't WvWvW on other people servers. But I can see the argument on people not wanting cross server LFD tools. Still overall I think most peoples issues have nothing to do with the LFD tools of wow and others like Rift it's more of what those games are all about. They are about grinding dungeons to get specific drops and when this happens the type of people you end up with starts to change as people are there sololy for the purpose to blow through the dungeon and hope for that drop. GW2 will come down to this in some way(although everyone gets token drops instead of HOPING for tyhat gear drop) but overall its a lot more about exploration and strategy as opposed to running through the exact same layout dungeon for the 100th time hoping for that .001% drop to pop.

Originally posted by vesuvias

This is a hangout for a lot of hard core/non-casual players. The poll results will likely be scewed in their favor as I think they overlly represented on this site (as opposed to a percentage of actual game population).

 

DF tools I think have gotten a bad rap from this crowd and become the whipping boy for bad social behavior. Bad Social behavior is mostly a product of the amonimity and this medium of communication (non-face to face). The reason games "seem" better previous to DF tools is that it's easier to find fully invested players with great amounts of freetime. By sheer time and investment these players are better and more willing to fully embrace the social aspects of the game. Why is it easier to find them? Because they are the only ones left in the pool of players willing to put up with the time requirements for putting togeather a group for a dungeoun. 

 

Is short non-causals get a better game by eliminating casuals. Now I understand this is the dream for some. But its unrealistic and it isn't Arenanets intention to eliminate casuals from dungeoun content. Without a DF tool finding a group becomes just another barrier to entry for the casual audience. It's in the same category as ridiculous the long leveling times, harsh death penalties and massivily scaled raid drops.

 

Maybe your right and trinity spots were the reason groups took to much time to put togeather in previous game. I doubt it. WoW, Rift and SWTOR didn't just add DF tools because a small vocal minority screamed for it. They added it because they data-mined and found dungeouns were under utilised for a siginifigant portion of thier player base.

 

I somewhat agree with the poster above that its inevitable. Arenanet will data-mine just like everyone else and if enough players aren't doing dungeouns they will add a DF tool. Honestly wouldn't you prefer that to something like decreasing dungeoun difficulty or making them soloable (or some other casual only change)?

Your right. Those games "didnt just add DF tools because a small vocal minority screamed for it." They added it because the majority of casuals playing the game screamed for it.

Those millions of console x-overs that decovered MMOs that didnt have the time into invest in looking for a group wanted to have access to these places that took effort to get into.

Thats why intances were dumbed down, mobs removed, encounters changed (made easier) and accessability to these places were made even easier. To the point where you didnt even need to travel to the instance itself.