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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Open world PvP without ganking. Is it possible?

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184 posts found
  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

7/29/12 12:07:20 AM#161
Originally posted by 5thofFikus

What if

3. self governed: players have the tools to determine what type of pvp they want to have. PVE (lambs) players by sheer  numbers alone  would hold the player killing and ganking to a minimum better than any coded rules other than removal. They would do so out of pure gaming bliss.  It would also give opportuniy for dynamic content.

Ive only seen it happen once in a game that i used to play. It was like crack to the casuals.

Impossible?

Of course it's possible. PVE vs. PVP Server Rulesets you see on virtually every MMORPG are basically that.

You'd be hard-pressed to convince me that a server could democratically settle on a better set of rules, for those not interested in bad MMORPG PVP.  "You never have to engage in bad PVP ever, unless you want to," is pretty much verbatim what would get my vote.

  k61977

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/25/12
Posts: 72

7/29/12 12:07:42 AM#162

This is actually a great idea, and it would pretty much get rid of ganking sure the higher level may have more skills to use but then it becomes a kill of player skill and not level.  It still wouldn't solve the player sitting back and waiting till you are 1/4 life and jumping you but would make things a lot more interesting.  Being one of the older gamers that actually played the one of the first MMO's Ultima Online I remember the good old days of PK'ers and losing all your gear you worked for that day.

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 11834

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ESO, and Combat Arms

7/29/12 12:11:08 AM#163
Originally posted by Sovrath
It's the balancing of that following to how much money the game needs to bring in that is the trick.

ATITD, Puzzle Pirates, DAoC, Vendetta Online, EVE Online... pre-WOW devs had a handle on that.

After WOW, it seems that devs forgot that part of the math.

  paulocafalli

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/11/05
Posts: 258

7/29/12 12:16:40 AM#164

The best PVP I've ever had was in SWG. I just don't understand why any developer has never tried to make anything similar to that. It was real great IMO.

EVE also has a great PVP system that could be used as basis for other games.

Instanced PVP, arena, etc, for me sucks badly. Fun sometimes yes but it's very limited.

paulocafalli Xfire Miniprofile
  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 11834

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ESO, and Combat Arms

7/29/12 12:16:56 AM#165
Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by 5thofFikus

What if

3. self governed: players have the tools to determine what type of pvp they want to have. PVE (lambs) players by sheer  numbers alone  would hold the player killing and ganking to a minimum better than any coded rules other than removal. They would do so out of pure gaming bliss.  It would also give opportuniy for dynamic content.

Ive only seen it happen once in a game that i used to play. It was like crack to the casuals.

Impossible?

Of course it's possible. PVE vs. PVP Server Rulesets you see on virtually every MMORPG are basically that.

You'd be hard-pressed to convince me that a server could democratically settle on a better set of rules, for those not interested in bad MMORPG PVP.  "You never have to engage in bad PVP ever, unless you want to," is pretty much verbatim what would get my vote.

See: UO.

Your PVP choices are

  • Faction
  • FFA
  • GvG
  • None at all
All on the same server. The dual-facet servers were a band-aid fix at the time, but they offer a design that I'm really surprised few have tried even travelling down that road as a feature save for AC's PKLite and  RIFT's character/guild transfer system.
 
 

  User Deleted
7/29/12 12:32:51 AM#166
Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by 5thofFikus

What if

3. self governed: players have the tools to determine what type of pvp they want to have. PVE (lambs) players by sheer  numbers alone  would hold the player killing and ganking to a minimum better than any coded rules other than removal. They would do so out of pure gaming bliss.  It would also give opportuniy for dynamic content.

Ive only seen it happen once in a game that i used to play. It was like crack to the casuals.

Impossible?

Of course it's possible. PVE vs. PVP Server Rulesets you see on virtually every MMORPG are basically that.

You'd be hard-pressed to convince me that a server could democratically settle on a better set of rules, for those not interested in bad MMORPG PVP.  "You never have to engage in bad PVP ever, unless you want to," is pretty much verbatim what would get my vote.

I was thinking enforcement of the rules would be in game by the barrel of a gun as well. With the right tools once the pve players get that first taste of blood and see how massive their numbers are, any Pk or unwanted pvp seen would become hunted by 10's or 100's of players.

The hatred runs so deep,and the desire to hold onto this new found high, and power, and resposibiily,people who had never pvp'd before dropped whatever they were doing to come gank that sob. They started planning attacks and leading assaults. I've never seen anything like it. 150 v 5 blood baths. Pure gaming bliss.

Do you think it's possible to recreate that?

  User Deleted
7/29/12 1:25:38 AM#167

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by Axehilt
 

The answer should be obvious:

When games let a minority of their playerbase ruin the fun of the majority, they end up with super tiny playerbases.

But that's a moot point as "only players who want open world ffa pvp should be playing open world ffa pvp games".

There isn't any ruining of anyone's game play when everyone who logs in should be on board. The issue is that players who have no business playing on these types of servers or in these types of games are logging in and expecting special treatment.

Here's a thought, not all games that force pvp on players actually have separate servers, it would be fine if that were the case but it's not sadly and the ones that force pvp do not in any way have enough security forces to create an adequate defense or consequence system.

Also, there's the majority factor, the majority by volume pays the most and shouldn't have to deal with snot nosed virgin basement dwellers revenge complex. It's just not sound business.

Moving on to the next logical fallacy.

Originally posted by bunnyhopper

Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by Disdena
Originally posted by Kyleran


 

The answer should be obvious:

When games let a minority of their playerbase ruin the fun of the majority, they end up with super tiny playerbases.

It's like EVE doesn't exist.

There's a problem with your post, namely the mechanics of having other players huge guilds that have large economic forces back players up when they play so they basically take on a paid job with benefits, so EVE is not typical.

  User Deleted
7/29/12 5:08:29 AM#168
Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by bunnyhopper

It's like EVE doesn't exist.

For some reason this calls to mind the Meet the Pyro video.

In reality EVE is a terrible tiny niche product but in your reality it's this magical wonderland of success.

No in terms of consistent subscription numbers and growth over the years in comparison to it's mmorpg peers. I see you ignore that reality.

  User Deleted
7/29/12 5:11:01 AM#169
Originally posted by itgrowls

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by Axehilt
 

Originally posted by bunnyhopper

Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by Disdena
Originally posted by Kyleran


 

It's like EVE doesn't exist.

There's a problem with your post, namely the mechanics of having other players huge guilds that have large economic forces back players up when they play so they basically take on a paid job with benefits, so EVE is not typical.


So it has to be the typical case does it? I can see your reasoning but, well WoW is not typical, especially in regards to subscriber numbers within the genre. Given the retention rate of the rest of the themepark mmorpgs has tended to rubbish, that means themepark, non OWPvP mmorpgs are also all niche, non in demand.

  User Deleted
7/29/12 5:24:00 AM#170
Originally posted by Kyleran
Originally posted by bunnyhopper
Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by Disdena
Originally posted by Kyleran


 

It's like EVE doesn't exist.

Well EVE does a pretty good job of making it quite possible to avoid this situation in most cases if you learn to fly smart.

Taking your Hulk into Jita is not smart. 

A player can avoid getting ganked in DF as noob for the vast, vast majority of the time and certainly reduce the impact on any gank if they play "smart".

  User Deleted
7/29/12 5:29:09 AM#171
Originally posted by bunnyhopper

A player can avoid getting ganked in DF as noob for the vast, vast majority of the time and certainly reduce the impact on any gank if they play "smart".

Replace smart with lucky and I would eventually agree. Very lucky. If someone really wants to camp a noob, the noob will be almost completely stopped of playing the game unless he wants to repeatedly die. That's very bad game design, something EvE did much better.

  stayontarget

Guide

Joined: 10/04/08
Posts: 6123

Girlfriends come and go but Epic battles are Soulbound

7/29/12 5:33:21 AM#172
Originally posted by bunnyhopper
Originally posted by Kyleran
Originally posted by bunnyhopper
Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by Disdena
Originally posted by Kyleran


 

It's like EVE doesn't exist.

Well EVE does a pretty good job of making it quite possible to avoid this situation in most cases if you learn to fly smart.

Taking your Hulk into Jita is not smart. 

A player can avoid getting ganked in DF as noob for the vast, vast majority of the time and certainly reduce the impact on any gank if they play "smart".


This is true for any FFA pvp game,  play smart and live with the rule sets.  But sadly most gamers are carebears and dont understand what makes games like "Day Z" so enjoyable.

Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...

  User Deleted
7/29/12 5:43:15 AM#173
Originally posted by The_Korrigan
Originally posted by bunnyhopper

A player can avoid getting ganked in DF as noob for the vast, vast majority of the time and certainly reduce the impact on any gank if they play "smart".

Replace smart with lucky and I would eventually agree. Very lucky. If someone really wants to camp a noob, the noob will be almost completely stopped of playing the game unless he wants to repeatedly die. That's very bad game design, something EvE did much better.

If someone wants to camp a noob..

 

Well they would have to find the noob first. They would then in order to camp him find him at his bind spot, or the noob would have to repeatedly keep going back to the same area for that period of time. It has little to do with luck. Getting caught the odd time out is unlucky, even then you can do things to minimise this happening by utilizing the terrain to give you the vantage point to spot people, whilst remaining in cover etc.

 

If you are skirting around goblin spawns near noob towns in human lands then you are increasing your chances of getting killed.

If you are mooching around selentine chests near noob town without paying attention then you are increasing your chances of getting killed.

If you are not going off and exploring (nothing to lose as noob) to find nice little spots out of the way then you are increasing your chances of getting killed.

If you are sticking to running along road ways between towns then you are increasing your chances of getting killed.

If you are not using the terrain to take advantage of vantage points then you are going to get yourself killed.

If you are mindlessly minding iron ore nodes just out of proxmity of town towers then you are more likely to get yourself killed.

If you are carrying an hours worth of loot on you, you are making trouble for yourself if you get killed.

 

The problem is some people cba, so they find it a better idea to just moan about being killed in the first place. Or (which happens alot on these boards), we have people who have spent a month or less in FFA OWPvP games who bang on about them from an uninformed position and hypothesise about endless ganking.

 

EVE offers more protection than DF, but then in order to get repeatedly ganked to such an extent that it is having an impact on your longer term play then you are either exceptionally unlucky (as in don't go outside you are going to get run over son unlucky), or exceptionally bad.

  sazabi

Novice Member

Joined: 3/18/07
Posts: 396

7/29/12 5:48:57 AM#174

its possible, but not from the game mechanics perspective.

i mean its up to the player to choose the safest routers from one place to another.

do you really want to go to this fabulous place.... which is infested by gankers?

you dont. you avoid that place and make it impossible for yourself to get ganked. genius isnt it?

thats the price you have to pay for playing an open pvp game.

 

another way is obviously the point of mmorpgs - grouping with players.

  User Deleted
7/29/12 7:17:27 AM#175
Originally posted by bunnyhopper
Originally posted by The_Korrigan
Originally posted by bunnyhopper

A player can avoid getting ganked in DF as noob for the vast, vast majority of the time and certainly reduce the impact on any gank if they play "smart".

Replace smart with lucky and I would eventually agree. Very lucky. If someone really wants to camp a noob, the noob will be almost completely stopped of playing the game unless he wants to repeatedly die. That's very bad game design, something EvE did much better.

If someone wants to camp a noob..

 

Well they would have to find the noob first. They would then in order to camp him find him at his bind spot, or the noob would have to repeatedly keep going back to the same area for that period of time. It has little to do with luck. Getting caught the odd time out is unlucky, even then you can do things to minimise this happening by utilizing the terrain to give you the vantage point to spot people, whilst remaining in cover etc.

 

If you are skirting around goblin spawns near noob towns in human lands then you are increasing your chances of getting killed.

If you are mooching around selentine chests near noob town without paying attention then you are increasing your chances of getting killed.

If you are not going off and exploring (nothing to lose as noob) to find nice little spots out of the way then you are increasing your chances of getting killed.

If you are sticking to running along road ways between towns then you are increasing your chances of getting killed.

If you are not using the terrain to take advantage of vantage points then you are going to get yourself killed.

If you are mindlessly minding iron ore nodes just out of proxmity of town towers then you are more likely to get yourself killed.

If you are carrying an hours worth of loot on you, you are making trouble for yourself if you get killed.

 

The problem is some people cba, so they find it a better idea to just moan about being killed in the first place. Or (which happens alot on these boards), we have people who have spent a month or less in FFA OWPvP games who bang on about them from an uninformed position and hypothesise about endless ganking.

 

EVE offers more protection than DF, but then in order to get repeatedly ganked to such an extent that it is having an impact on your longer term play then you are either exceptionally unlucky (as in don't go outside you are going to get run over son unlucky), or exceptionally bad.

Did you play DF at launch? Some people had maxed skills in 2 weeks or less. Then a fix added 2 months. Then another added 2 more. The power gap was so huge and everyone was killing everyone else that a new player would get killed constanly. Yes constantly.

Im not sure how it was their fault. Or what you're trying to say. But DF at launch was a PK fest. And they PK'd non stop.

It settled down after a while, but the elf (myridian or whatever) got hit every 5 - 10 minutes.

 It wasnt unlucky. It was for real. The alternative became the blood wall afk for 15 hours a day for a month. And people LOL'd and bailed.

thats why we quit, which was a shame because we were hooked. But to blame the poor nubs for the pk fest that was DF's first weeks as if they could have done anything about it. c'mon . Should they join a city and bitch about seiges non stop instead? Oh the devs helped blah blah blah. Everyone was bitching lol.

Thats why no one plays now. This was the EU server at launch.

Edit:

 I Dont know if you were talking about the launch or something else so ignore this if it doesnt apply. to get repeatedly ganked in DF though was easy right after launch.

  User Deleted
7/29/12 7:43:46 AM#176
Originally posted by 5thofFikus
Originally posted by bunnyhopper
Originally posted by The_Korrigan
Originally posted by bunnyhopper

 

 

Did you play DF at launch? Some people had maxed skills in 2 weeks or less. Then a fix added 2 months. Then another added 2 more. The power gap was so huge and everyone was killing everyone else that a new player would get killed constanly. Yes constantly.

Im not sure how it was their fault. Or what you're trying to say. But DF at launch was a PK fest. And they PK'd non stop.

It settled down after a while, but the elf (myridian or whatever) got hit every 5 - 10 minutes.

 It wasnt unlucky. It was for real. The alternative became the blood wall afk for 15 hours a day for a month. And people LOL'd and bailed.

thats why we quit, which was a shame because we were hooked. But to blame the poor nubs for the pk fest that was DF's first weeks as if they could have done anything about it. c'mon . Should they join a city and bitch about seiges non stop instead? Oh the devs helped blah blah blah. Everyone was bitching lol.

Thats why no one plays now. This was the EU server at launch.

 

 

It was a pk fest right at the beginning because groups were exploiting/unattended afking up their skills before many had even thought about venturing away from the starter towns. That was a grind issue, not a ffa issue, nor was it is a safe zone issue.

 

Bloodwalling and afking everything to death was done in order to close power disparities, not to avoid getting found/smashed in the first place. You can have skills maxed out of the ying yang and yet if that noob is moving around the massive world, it is unlikely that you are going to spend much time ganking the crap out of him.

 

The lack of skill cap and the endless and boring grind did for the game for many, not the fact they got beat on and lost 5 gold. It is the fact that they had to face endless months of tedious grinding in order to catch up that put most off and quite rightly so. But again that has nothing to do with FFA pvp and everything to do with an insanely stupid grind.

 

It is strange to be speaking about "the first few weeks" of a title launch in isolation. Even if you considered the scenario that the first week or two (or more) where a nightmare, that doesn't really account for all the time that followed now does it. The simple fact of the matter is that yes, new players CAN do plenty to avoid making being ganked the "norm" for the vast majority of their play time. Will they still get ganked.. yep, can it be annyoing, yep. But as often as it is made out? No not by a long shot.

 

EDIT: Noticed your edit, no I am talking about the full life cycle of the game (and other games), not just the launch. Often at launch their can be issues and you are right to point that out.

  User Deleted
7/29/12 7:57:55 AM#177
Originally posted by bunnyhopper
Originally posted by 5thofFikus
Originally posted by bunnyhopper
Originally posted by The_Korrigan
Originally posted by bunnyhopper

 

 

Did you play DF at launch? Some people had maxed skills in 2 weeks or less. Then a fix added 2 months. Then another added 2 more. The power gap was so huge and everyone was killing everyone else that a new player would get killed constanly. Yes constantly.

Im not sure how it was their fault. Or what you're trying to say. But DF at launch was a PK fest. And they PK'd non stop.

It settled down after a while, but the elf (myridian or whatever) got hit every 5 - 10 minutes.

 It wasnt unlucky. It was for real. The alternative became the blood wall afk for 15 hours a day for a month. And people LOL'd and bailed.

thats why we quit, which was a shame because we were hooked. But to blame the poor nubs for the pk fest that was DF's first weeks as if they could have done anything about it. c'mon . Should they join a city and bitch about seiges non stop instead? Oh the devs helped blah blah blah. Everyone was bitching lol.

Thats why no one plays now. This was the EU server at launch.

 

 

It was a pk fest right at the beginning because groups were exploiting/unattended afking up their skills before many had even thought about venturing away from the starter towns. That was a grind issue, not a ffa issue, nor was it is a safe zone issue.

 

Bloodwalling and afking everything to death was done in order to close power disparities, not to avoid getting found/smashed in the first place. You can have skills maxed out of the ying yang and yet if that noob is moving around the massive world, it is unlikely that you are going to spend much time ganking the crap out of him.

 

The lack of skill cap and the endless and boring grind did for the game for many, not the fact they got beat on and lost 5 gold. It is the fact that they had to face endless months of tedious grinding in order to catch up that put most off and quite rightly so. But again that has nothing to do with FFA pvp and everything to do with an insanely stupid grind.

 

It is strange to be speaking about "the first few weeks" of a title launch in isolation. Even if you considered the scenario that the first week or two (or more) where a nightmare, that doesn't really account for all the time that followed now does it. The simple fact of the matter is that yes, new players CAN do plenty to avoid making being ganked the "norm" for the vast majority of their play time. Will they still get ganked.. yep, can it be annyoing, yep. But as often as it is made out? No not by a long shot.

 

You're right. The FFA pvp was great after most people quit.

What did it for us was changing Arrows and magic to hit a mob instead of just shooting  into the air. We had plans and goals that were just wiped out again. Plus the extra time it would take now to do what we wanted. that completely changes how you play the game.

 We just didnt have time in the day in order for us to have fun and level. Looked the the blood wall. then canceled.

Went from Immersed into a game to canceling in 5 minutes.

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

7/29/12 8:43:32 AM#178
Originally posted by bunnyhopper

No in terms of consistent subscription numbers and growth over the years in comparison to it's mmorpg peers. I see you ignore that reality.

Again, if you think EVE and all the similarly harsh open PVP MMOs make up a large portion of the total player interest and subscriptions of MMORPGs, you are delusional.

Focusing on the solitary success story amongst a vast sea of players hopping from themepark to themepark (due to PVE's inherent consumability) only makes you sound more delusional.

  User Deleted
7/29/12 8:56:39 AM#179
Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by bunnyhopper

No in terms of consistent subscription numbers and growth over the years in comparison to it's mmorpg peers. I see you ignore that reality.

Again, if you think EVE and all the similarly harsh open PVP MMOs make up a large portion of the total player interest and subscriptions of MMORPGs, you are delusional.

Focusing on the solitary success story amongst a vast sea of players hopping from themepark to themepark (due to PVE's inherent consumability) only makes you sound more delusional.

Where did I say they make up a large portion again? I merely pointed out your "super tiny playerbase" comment was off the mark when you consider EVE's success. A game with the consistent figures EVE has within this genre (particularly the western market) is not "tiny" by any stretch of the imagination. Simply trying to write it off because it doesn't fit your case, not too great really.

 

You should spend a bit more time focusing on what is actually being said and a bit less time trying to attack the poster or twist weak arguments. You might have a touch more success that way.

  Nitth

Elite Member

Joined: 7/29/10
Posts: 3191

Magic Propels my Rolly Chair.

7/29/12 8:57:50 AM#180

There will always be the pray and the hunter(s)


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