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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Open world PvP without ganking. Is it possible?

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184 posts found
  User Deleted
7/28/12 6:19:27 PM#141
Originally posted by Truelevel
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by The_Korrigan

 

Actually, I wouldnt mind Perma-Death Ice (yes, im a Pk'er) I think the risk is most exciting. With P.D in effect we would have to choose our target more carefully and weigh it with our risk/reward scale... would you really want to permanently lose your char over some "random" in the lowbie zone. Also it gives the bounty system an interesting twist, say if you captured a wanted murderous individual... you have the option to either turn in the perp to face the executioners axe or shake him down for his valuables... or both >:)

Its what MMo's need... crooked bounty hunters muahahaha... Good idea, I like it

If you are going to have extremely harsh punishments for killing noob characters. I'm going to bring some along in my group so good luck using aoes against us. Or I'm going to keep rolling noob alts to go out and farm your resources.

 

If you are going to have extremely harsh penalties just restricted to the noob zones, well you may as well just have a zero pking mechanic in them instead and save both parties the bother.

 

I'm all for permadeath, but for whacking a newer player in an OWPvP game? Not so sure about that.

  MMOExposed

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/17/10
Posts: 5976

7/28/12 6:22:01 PM#142
Originally posted by Grixxitt

Thread is flawed, there are no non-combatants in open world PvP ;)

 

 


 

thats what Flagging mechanics are for

  scotty899

Novice Member

Joined: 1/01/06
Posts: 173

7/28/12 6:32:07 PM#143

OWPVP is a kill or be killed world. in my opinion to farm lowbies alot would be to slow down the enemy reinforcements who are trying to reach lvl cap. just my way of justifying bored jerks at lvl cap who gank lowbies lol.

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

7/28/12 6:33:51 PM#144
Originally posted by Disdena
Originally posted by Kyleran


All depends really on whether you are trying to build a more realistic virtual world, where a harsh justice system would make sense, or a PVP focused game, where it would make no sense at all.  Why restrict people from doing what they really want to?

There was a problem with part of your post: it was in parentheses, not italicized, not bolded, not underlined, not brightly colored, and not a huge font. I fixed it for you.

This is a question that people should not be ignoring. Implementing a way of punishing gankers via justice system or automatic penalties is ridiculous in a game where you're supposed to go around attacking other players, which—shockingly—is the case for open world PvP games.

What is the goal, here? What's the perfect game at the end of this discussion? A game where anyone can attack you but no one ever does because of the consequences? What is the allure of a game like that?

The answer should be obvious:

When games let a minority of their playerbase ruin the fun of the majority, they end up with super tiny playerbases.

  Sovrath

Elite Member

Joined: 1/06/05
Posts: 17116

7/28/12 6:40:33 PM#145
Originally posted by Axehilt
 

The answer should be obvious:

When games let a minority of their playerbase ruin the fun of the majority, they end up with super tiny playerbases.

But that's a moot point as "only players who want open world ffa pvp should be playing open world ffa pvp games".

There isn't any ruining of anyone's game play when everyone who logs in should be on board. The issue is that players who have no business playing on these types of servers or in these types of games are logging in and expecting special treatment.

However, the part that rings more true is the "tiny playerbase" part.

I don't believe that most of these ffa pvp games would garner a huge population. That should be ok but if developers are thinking they are going to get millions of players wanting to play such a game then they have another "think" coming.

 

  User Deleted
7/28/12 6:40:48 PM#146
Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by Disdena
Originally posted by Kyleran


 

The answer should be obvious:

When games let a minority of their playerbase ruin the fun of the majority, they end up with super tiny playerbases.

It's like EVE doesn't exist.

  nate1980

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/03/09
Posts: 1835

7/28/12 7:12:37 PM#147
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by nate1980
Just like in real life, we can have organized wars over resources, land and etc. and it'd be far more fun than random PKing.

You want warfare, not PVP.  It's going to begin with a different set of premises.  (One death to a customer, for instance).  Actual rules (far more than current), actual consquence (far harsher than current), not everyone can be the hero (one general, few officers, lots of grunts)... just a bunch of changes as fitting a different game with different goals.

Most of them would be fun-minus (reduction) for the average PVP fan, your game probably won't sell too well.

I was a huge follower of Darkfall and Mortal Online before they released, and then I was let down when I seen what the community had in mind for them. The community could have played it the way I envisioned it, or they could play it the way they do now. Needless to say, I never bought either, since the people playing them have no imagination. Random ganking/PKing, grinding skills, instead of just playing the game, and so on.

What I described may not sell well, but neither do FFA PvP full loot games.

  User Deleted
7/28/12 7:22:05 PM#148
Originally posted by nate1980
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by nate1980
 

I was a huge follower of Darkfall and Mortal Online before they released, and then I was let down when I seen what the community had in mind for them. The community could have played it the way I envisioned it, or they could play it the way they do now. Needless to say, I never bought either, since the people playing them have no imagination. Random ganking/PKing, grinding skills, instead of just playing the game, and so on.

What I described may not sell well, but neither do FFA PvP full loot games.

Darkfall was based on FPS games. The devs have come out themselves and said it is primarily a pvp game. As for having to grind, how is that the players fault?

 

If you never bought/played either, i'm not sure how you are in a position to comment on how the players in said games are playing them.

 

One of the most consistently popular western mmorpg games on the market is a FFA PvP loot game.

  Tierless

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/01/08
Posts: 2111

joie de vivre

7/28/12 7:33:38 PM#149

Swg flag system

mmorpg.com/blogs/Xobdnas

  User Deleted
7/28/12 7:33:55 PM#150
Originally posted by Creslin321

When MMORPGs first became popular with the release of UO...I think that many of us had a dream of how the PvP in the game would work.  We thought that PvP would help support the whole ideal of a virtual world.  Feuds would be born, mighty heroes would rise to defeat villians, wicked people would methodically plot robberies or murders, while peacekeepers tried to stop them.  And every aspect of these scenarios would have created by players...it would have been marvelous.

But this isn't really what happened.  What happened, was ganking.  Many players quickly learned that the benefits of rampant player killing far outweighed the penalties, and since UO was basically just a game, many people had no moral qualms with mass murder.  So the strong preyed upon the weak, and I think the dream was killed.  Instead of really interesting scenarios playing out, players were just constantly in fear of a "PK" killing them and then mocking them in l33t sp34k while they were essentially minding their own business.

And that brings me to the question I would like to pose for discussion. 

Is it possible to have a true open-world PvP system without ganking?  And if so, how could it be accomplished?

I don't think we have ever seen an open-world PvP system that really "works" in that it makes the original dream of open-world PvP supporting the virtual world come true.  Every open-world PvP system I have seen either devolves into ganking, or is so limited that the open-world PvP system basically boils down to specific areas where people go to kill each other.

PvP "zones" are a popular "solution" to the ganking problem, and while they can be fun, they don't really accomplish the goal that I think open-world PvP was originally intended for.  So I would like to stay away from people saying that they are the solution.

 

most likely not, because even if they had the same system that GW2 has where it levels you down to the zone you are waiting in to gank people in, i'm sure they would probably still have gear treadmill in the game and that would infer an unfair advantage to the gankers. They need to make a UO system where they people who are ganking get attacked by guards and can't do anything in cities. It would definitely offset the problem.

 

  User Deleted
7/28/12 7:40:24 PM#151
Originally posted by Xobdnas

Swg flag system

Wouldn't work in a sandbox/OWPvP game with any kind of territory or resource control, would kill any need for trade routes, haulers, guards, pirates etc.

 

Go out and steal resources.. don't flag self.

Go out and spy on enemy... don't flag self.

Enemy comes with more men... don't flag self.

Get a few more guys together... flag self but enemy doesn't.

  Tatercake

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/24/07
Posts: 247

LET GO OF MY NUTS

7/28/12 7:48:50 PM#152

naw man your wrong i played the game at launch and played it for 8 years and how it worked then was we hunted the reds  we used icq chat like crazy and we let all know if a red ganked someone and all us went after them  there were times  when it sucked but for most part was about  comunity and  we stuck together  but you players nowdays are not about community your about your selfs and so you probly die a lot more and the fun factor meybee not there for your lack of community

  nate1980

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/03/09
Posts: 1835

7/28/12 7:52:20 PM#153

To be honest, even though I didn't get into EVE, I like their system. You can PvP anywhere in the game, but most wouldn't dare PvP outside of nullsec. Nullsec is where the territory and resource control happens, and is where you'd want to PvP anyways. So you make money, get used to the game, level up/whatever in regular territory/zones and when you want to participate in the meat of the game, which is territory/resource control and sieges, you travel on over to the PvP zones, which would automatically flag you.

  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 18989

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

7/28/12 8:11:14 PM#154
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by Kyleran
(Why restrict people from doing what they really want to?)

Golly, I dunno, Mommy says we have laws and stuff so people can get along.  Ninjas never say that tho, Ninjas have Real Ultimate Power.  These guys are cool; and by cool, I mean totally sweet.

(Sorry man, just such an elementary question; the only place it ever turns up is in PvP threads and Junior High.)

 

Well, I was being rhetorical when I asked it (hence the parens) but didn't make myself clear enough apparently.

But it's true, if a game or server's stated purpose is open world, FFA PVP, why would you (the player) expect any sort of rules that would restrict people from killing each other mercilessly?

EVE btw, isn't that sort of game.  They go to great lengths to try and find a balance of sorts, so that players can more or less control their level of risk in determining their game play style. 

You can go a very long time without ever being killed in a EVE as opposed to say a TERA FFA server.

 

"In these forums 'honest' seems to be a symonym for 'hates the game just like I do'" - ohioastro
Kyleran - Bitter Vet ™ since 2006
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 18989

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

7/28/12 8:15:59 PM#155
Originally posted by bunnyhopper
Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by Disdena
Originally posted by Kyleran


 

The answer should be obvious:

When games let a minority of their playerbase ruin the fun of the majority, they end up with super tiny playerbases.

It's like EVE doesn't exist.

Well EVE does a pretty good job of making it quite possible to avoid this situation in most cases if you learn to fly smart.

Taking your Hulk into Jita is not smart. 

"In these forums 'honest' seems to be a symonym for 'hates the game just like I do'" - ohioastro
Kyleran - Bitter Vet ™ since 2006
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

7/28/12 8:47:48 PM#156
Originally posted by bunnyhopper

It's like EVE doesn't exist.

For some reason this calls to mind the Meet the Pyro video.

In reality EVE is a terrible tiny niche product but in your reality it's this magical wonderland of success.

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

7/28/12 9:10:08 PM#157
Originally posted by Sovrath

But that's a moot point as "only players who want open world ffa pvp should be playing open world ffa pvp games".

There isn't any ruining of anyone's game play when everyone who logs in should be on board. The issue is that players who have no business playing on these types of servers or in these types of games are logging in and expecting special treatment.

However, the part that rings more true is the "tiny playerbase" part.

I don't believe that most of these ffa pvp games would garner a huge population. That should be ok but if developers are thinking they are going to get millions of players wanting to play such a game then they have another "think" coming. 

When addressing the "Why restrict players options?" question, you only end up with one of two situations:

  1. Restricted: Players are prevented from ruining each other's fun, and therefore your potential audience is large.
  2. Unrestricted: Players aren't prevented from ruining each other's fun, and therefore the audience is quite small.
The amount of people who mistakenly stumble into the wrong genre is itself moot, because either way you're in Situation #2 if you have unrestricted PVP, which means you have a tiny playerbase.  
  Sovrath

Elite Member

Joined: 1/06/05
Posts: 17116

7/28/12 9:32:08 PM#158
Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by Sovrath

But that's a moot point as "only players who want open world ffa pvp should be playing open world ffa pvp games".

There isn't any ruining of anyone's game play when everyone who logs in should be on board. The issue is that players who have no business playing on these types of servers or in these types of games are logging in and expecting special treatment.

However, the part that rings more true is the "tiny playerbase" part.

I don't believe that most of these ffa pvp games would garner a huge population. That should be ok but if developers are thinking they are going to get millions of players wanting to play such a game then they have another "think" coming. 

When addressing the "Why restrict players options?" question, you only end up with one of two situations:

  1. Restricted: Players are prevented from ruining each other's fun, and therefore your potential audience is large.
  2. Unrestricted: Players aren't prevented from ruining each other's fun, and therefore the audience is quite small.
The amount of people who mistakenly stumble into the wrong genre is itself moot, because either way you're in Situation #2 if you have unrestricted PVP, which means you have a tiny playerbase.  

The only reasn why that would be bad is if the "tiny playerbase" couldn't support the game.

But where that line is drawn is uncertain. EVE brings in a die hard playerbase and the game continues. Heck, even DAoC still has a following.

The one thing that I'm sure of is that most games have a following. It's the balancing of that following to how much money the game needs to bring in that is the trick.

It should be ok for a game or any type of media, to have a small following provided that the creators were realistic when making the game in conjuntion with the audience they were expecting.

Most of the things that I tend to like are NOT mainstream. Because of this they have small audiences but they can survive. Of course, I can turn to a mainstream bit of entertainment but I know enough not to criticize expecting something great because the more people that need to be entertained the more whitewashed the final prodcut is going to be.

There's some great stuff out there but it's not mainsteam and does  have a small audience. That's just the way of it. It's reality and it has been going on a lot longer than video games.

If we are to say that everythign needs to be made to gather as large an audience as possible then we cut off a lot of experimentation, a lot of things that are different.

I'd rather have the experimentation, the different. So again, as long as game developers can build and develop a game that works and has an audience then "good".

Of course, in some ways we are talking in the abstract. What are the most successful ffa pvp games? I suppose EVE is right up there and possibly L2. Not juggernauts as far as population but they both have found ways to continue.

  User Deleted
7/28/12 9:43:10 PM#159
Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by Sovrath

But that's a moot point as "only players who want open world ffa pvp should be playing open world ffa pvp games".

There isn't any ruining of anyone's game play when everyone who logs in should be on board. The issue is that players who have no business playing on these types of servers or in these types of games are logging in and expecting special treatment.

However, the part that rings more true is the "tiny playerbase" part.

I don't believe that most of these ffa pvp games would garner a huge population. That should be ok but if developers are thinking they are going to get millions of players wanting to play such a game then they have another "think" coming. 

When addressing the "Why restrict players options?" question, you only end up with one of two situations:

  1. Restricted: Players are prevented from ruining each other's fun, and therefore your potential audience is large.
  2. Unrestricted: Players aren't prevented from ruining each other's fun, and therefore the audience is quite small.
The amount of people who mistakenly stumble into the wrong genre is itself moot, because either way you're in Situation #2 if you have unrestricted PVP, which means you have a tiny playerbase.  

What if

3. self governed: players have the tools to determine what type of pvp they want to have. PVE (lambs) players by sheer  numbers alone  would hold the player killing and ganking to a minimum better than any coded rules other than removal. They would do so out of pure gaming bliss.  It would also give opportuniy for dynamic content.

Ive only seen it happen once in a game that i used to play. It was like crack to the casuals.

Impossible?

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

7/28/12 11:49:50 PM#160
Originally posted by Sovrath

The only reasn why that would be bad is if the "tiny playerbase" couldn't support the game.

But where that line is drawn is uncertain. EVE brings in a die hard playerbase and the game continues. Heck, even DAoC still has a following.

The one thing that I'm sure of is that most games have a following. It's the balancing of that following to how much money the game needs to bring in that is the trick.

It should be ok for a game or any type of media, to have a small following provided that the creators were realistic when making the game in conjuntion with the audience they were expecting.

Most of the things that I tend to like are NOT mainstream. Because of this they have small audiences but they can survive. Of course, I can turn to a mainstream bit of entertainment but I know enough not to criticize expecting something great because the more people that need to be entertained the more whitewashed the final prodcut is going to be.

There's some great stuff out there but it's not mainsteam and does  have a small audience. That's just the way of it. It's reality and it has been going on a lot longer than video games.

If we are to say that everythign needs to be made to gather as large an audience as possible then we cut off a lot of experimentation, a lot of things that are different.

I'd rather have the experimentation, the different. So again, as long as game developers can build and develop a game that works and has an audience then "good".

Of course, in some ways we are talking in the abstract. What are the most successful ffa pvp games? I suppose EVE is right up there and possibly L2. Not juggernauts as far as population but they both have found ways to continue.

Sure, and if we're talking about non-MMORPGs or indie-budget MMORPGs or MMORPGs on life support (DAOC) then that's totally correct.

There's only an issue when that niche audience objects to an appropriately-budgeted game being made for them, like Darkfall, implying that they deserve more.  Which I guess isn't really a surprise, because I shouldn't expect many people to understand how niche their own tastes are.

To make matters even more complicated, I think that a non-FFA PVP sandbox which focuses on great crafting gameplay actually has a chance in the current market.  In fact exactly like Salem, minus the PVP*

(* ...and having looked at recent screenshots, minus 3D too.  More and more I'm wishing they'd have stuck with H&H's 2D view, but completely rebuilt the engine and hired a solid artist to lead the visuals.  2D would've also meant that new content was that much easier to implement.)

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