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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Devs take note: Anti-MMO features

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162 posts found
  Torrent41

Novice Member

Joined: 6/14/11
Posts: 14

7/28/12 12:03:54 PM#81

People tend to forget that the WoW we have today is extremely difficult from vanilla WoW, therefore you can't really generalise. Vanilla WoW had no dungeon finder, in fact no LFG or LFR system at all. It had no cross-server interaction until patch 1.12 which introduced cross-realm battlegrounds, which was just before TBC. It had plenty of world bosses, and had a fair balance between instanced and open world bosses. There was no teleporting around, only to major cities (with the assistance of a mage) and your hearthstone bind location (which had a 1 hour cooldown). There were flight paths however, though they were pretty time consuming. Flying from one end of Kalimdor to the other took over 10 minutes if I remember correctly. The levelling experience had a lot of quests that required a group of multiple players, now WoW has none of that.

 

Despite all of this, Vanilla still brought in EIGHT MILLION subscribers and was still growing due to word of mouth / advertising (TBC brought in another three million). People who argue that there isn't an an audience for people who want a somewhat hardcore game, or people who argue that a game can't be successful without these convenience features, are completely fooling themselves. Sure, vanilla WoW wasn't Everquest, but it was a damn lot more hardcore, and a completely different game, than it is today. Yet it still pulled in a huge audience, and probably would've pulled in a greater one even if an expansion hadn't released because it was still growing. I'd even say it would be bigger than it is today had it kept its original design philosophy.

 

Just because WoW changed, it doesn't mean that the players changed, and it doesn't mean the genre had to change. Human psychology won't change for a very, very long time. Everyone 'wants' covenience, sure; but the large majority of gamers don't see the consequences which come around after implementing those features. They just think 'cool', and then wonder why that 'feel' they got from the game a few years ago is gone. There are few game designers that actually realise this, which is a shame. I'm not saying that convenience should be thown out of the window, I think that it should be implemented wherever it can, provided that it doesn't compromise the immersion or community of a game. Game designers simply aren't trying hard enough to find solutions to this problem, unfortunately.

  Garvon3

Novice Member

Joined: 3/17/10
Posts: 2943

7/28/12 12:06:28 PM#82
Originally posted by Quirhid
Originally posted by Scot

Most of the specific issues can be summed up in more general terms:


Design which sidelines grouping. Design which simply allows solo progress does not sideline grouping
Design which sidelines crafting. Not every MMO is about crafting nor should they.
Design which cuts out roleplaying tools. You don't need tools to roleplay.

 

You don't really care about MMOs, you just don't like some features or ways of doing things.

First... design which makes soloing the easiest, and most profitable way to play the game, and a game which is 95% solo content, pretty much sidelines grouping.

And some people like having the option of crafting, just like some people enjoy the option of leveling via PvP or grouping. And yes, roleplaying is helped by basic RP tools. Not saying those last two contribute to anti MMOness, just pointing out some things...

  Garvon3

Novice Member

Joined: 3/17/10
Posts: 2943

7/28/12 12:09:39 PM#83
Originally posted by Quirhid
Originally posted by Garvon3
Originally posted by Quirhid
 

I think you are far exaggerating the number of "hardcore MMO gamers" (I think you mean old-school) and severely under-estimating the market for new style MMOs.

You also missed his point. He never said you couldn't make money out of old-school players. Its just that they're significantly smaller niche than the mainstream niche. Enough so that it is hard to  justify making a high budget game targeted to that audience.

Who said anything about a high budget game? Just make sure that your core game is solid and build it all the time. Don't spend millions on CGI trailers, full voice acting, scripted cinematics... make a damn game. Mythic made Dark Age of Camelot with 30 devs and about a million dollars, and it is STILL better than most MMOs out there today.

Mythic was a one-hit-wonder like many others (and many still are). If I remember correctly, Quake 3 was made with 24 people and Guild Wars 1 started out with three guys coding in one's kitchen.

Your subjective view matters little when almost every AAA MMO today regularly overshadows any successess DAoC may or may not have had.

First, Mythic built their experience and team piece by piece. They released a lot of big multiplayer games and MUDs before DAoC, so hardly a one hit wonder.

Second, DAoC had a steady 250k subscribers for over 5 years before it started to dwindle, that's far FAR more than most modern AAA MMOs can claim. AoC would kill for those kind of numbers. So would WAR for that matter.

  Kilmar

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/13/07
Posts: 850

7/28/12 12:11:33 PM#84

Instanced content is an anti-massive-multiplayer feature for me, too bad it's omnipotent

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12258

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Project Gorgon, and Combat Arms

7/28/12 12:12:39 PM#85
Originally posted by Garvon3

First... design which makes soloing the easiest, and most profitable way to play the game, and a game which is 95% solo content, pretty much sidelines grouping.

Then your issue is really grouping vs solo, not socialization or non 'anti-MMO' features, correct?

I say that because so far not only is there no data to support solo gameplay detracting from the social aspect of MMOs. The games that have developed extensive community and interaction beyond the guild and group units have been games that not only support solo and group play but see an extreme amount of solo play at all levels of player activity. Some examples would be EVE Online, Second Life, Ultima Online, and A Tale in the Desert.

 

 

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  Garvon3

Novice Member

Joined: 3/17/10
Posts: 2943

7/28/12 12:17:16 PM#86
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Garvon3

First... design which makes soloing the easiest, and most profitable way to play the game, and a game which is 95% solo content, pretty much sidelines grouping.

Then your issue is really grouping vs solo, not socialization or non 'anti-MMO' features, correct?

I say that because so far not only is there no data to support solo gameplay detracting from the social aspect of MMOs. The games that have developed extensive community and interaction beyond the guild and group units have been games that not only support solo and group play but see an extreme amount of solo play at all levels of player activity. Some examples would be EVE Online, Second Life, Ultima Online, and A Tale in the Desert.

 

 

Er, except grouping was entirely necessarily in just about all those games you listed. Working with other players. You just could NOT play the game entirely solo, unlike the WoW clones that dominate the market today.

If everyone is playing alone, no one can possibly socialize.

  Quirhid

Elite Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5540

Correcting wrongs on the Internet...

7/28/12 12:30:46 PM#87
Originally posted by Garvon3
 

First... design which makes soloing the easiest, and most profitable way to play the game, and a game which is 95% solo content, pretty much sidelines grouping.

And some people like having the option of crafting, just like some people enjoy the option of leveling via PvP or grouping. And yes, roleplaying is helped by basic RP tools. Not saying those last two contribute to anti MMOness, just pointing out some things...

Lets put something concrete on the table: What are these basic RP tools?

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  User Deleted
7/28/12 12:34:58 PM#88
Originally posted by mmoguy43

In the light of the topic of MMOs that feel like singplayer games. What features do you feel are unproductive or even detrimental to making an MMO or MMORPG what it is or should be in your opinion? MMO design seems to have gotten off track somewhat and I wish devs would take notice to what they are doing compared to what players want (or based on what they don't want?). What is happening can't possibly be the result of not knowing what players want.

I'm not explicitly speaking to just your layman dev but mostly to those responsible for the direction of it's entirety.

Heavy gear grinds that promote elitist mentalities and segregate the community into different cliques.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19773

7/28/12 12:36:46 PM#89
Originally posted by Garvon3
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Garvon3

First... design which makes soloing the easiest, and most profitable way to play the game, and a game which is 95% solo content, pretty much sidelines grouping.

Then your issue is really grouping vs solo, not socialization or non 'anti-MMO' features, correct?

I say that because so far not only is there no data to support solo gameplay detracting from the social aspect of MMOs. The games that have developed extensive community and interaction beyond the guild and group units have been games that not only support solo and group play but see an extreme amount of solo play at all levels of player activity. Some examples would be EVE Online, Second Life, Ultima Online, and A Tale in the Desert.

 

 

Er, except grouping was entirely necessarily in just about all those games you listed. Working with other players. You just could NOT play the game entirely solo, unlike the WoW clones that dominate the market today.

If everyone is playing alone, no one can possibly socialize.

Two words .. chat channel .. that is your socialization.

Plus, i don't understand what is the obsession with solo-content ... if you look at WOW, most of the gameplay is LFD grouped.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19773

7/28/12 12:39:29 PM#90
Originally posted by Garvon3
Originally posted by azmundai

honestly .. this post just falls on def ears.

in truth there is nothing wrong with the kinds of MMOs they are creating. They are making money. They are serving an audience.

The problem is that they're branding them as MMOs, which they aren't. And they aren't making much money. And they're only making games for ONE segment of a massive user base.

Genre changes .. you don't have the power to dictate what MMO means.

Now MMO means ... a mix of solo content, LFD, instances, and lobby based game play. You do not like it, you don't have to play. Personally, that is how i see MMOs. I highly doubt most play will think that WOW is not a MMO. DCUO is not a MMO, and so on.

 

  RoyalPhunk

Novice Member

Joined: 1/11/11
Posts: 181

7/28/12 1:02:07 PM#91
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by RoyalPhunk
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by XAPGames
Originally posted by fenistil

1. fully automatic LFG systems = changing game into lobby

...

 

Nailed it on all points.

 

I like the signature I saw somewhere.  (paraphrased) "I really like MMORPGs.  I just hope that someday a developer will make another one."

THink about WHY there is such change. In fact, LFG systems are very popular. Lots of playres asked for one in TOR because it wasn't there from the start.

Yeah, MMORPGs are turning into lobby-based games .. or at least a large part of it ... this is a trend for a reason.

Lol not they are not. TSW, GW2, Repop, Archeage lots of games coming up are not lobby based. You seem to "want" them to all be but that doesn't mean they are. You were talking about SWTOR it didn't fail because it's lobby based it failed because it was a SPRG and sucked and so did Tera and to a lesser extent Rift. Don't confuse Moba's and MMO's they are not the same thing.Diablo 3 is not an MMO and nether is torchlight 2 or LOL or SMITE or TRIBES Ascend.

WOW, the biggest one, is. GW, the first one, is. DCUO is. Sure some are not, but a lot are.

DDO is.

Lot of the same people who play WOW play Diablo 3 (in fact, at least 1.2M annual pass holder, not counting those who purchase in retail). The play style is close enough. Plus, D3, Torchlight are not MMOs, but discussed here anyway.

The playstyle is not "close enough" WoW is certainly an mmo with LFG tools rammed up its ass but all their "new content" is instanced so they turned it into a Lobby based game but it never started out that way and we are seeing SWTOR epicly fail for trying to copy this pattern.

 

D3 may have millions playing it but can you get a massive amount of people on screen at once? No you cannot. Can you wage massive wars? Travel massive distances to meet up with your friends. Is D3 one massive world? Shit no it isn't and nor is it an MMO. Obviously your a wow fanboi desperately trying to keep the status quo and well look at SWTOR and Tera the latest wow clones crumbling... no wonder you are upset.

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

7/28/12 1:11:04 PM#92
Originally posted by Garvon3

This isn't a discussion about immersion, it's about socializing. And no, instancing is insanely immersion breaking.

In LotRO, running around, finding a cave, getting a message "You cannot enter here without the right quest." Yeah, immersion!

In a virtual world full of adventurers it makes sense for other people to be in dungeons.

It actually kinda doesn't make sense.

People in novels or movies don't just stumble upon a bunch of other tourists when they explore dungeons/ruins/caves/etc.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19773

7/28/12 1:31:49 PM#93
Originally posted by RoyalPhunk
 

The playstyle is not "close enough" WoW is certainly an mmo with LFG tools rammed up its ass but all their "new content" is instanced so they turned it into a Lobby based game but it never started out that way and we are seeing SWTOR epicly fail for trying to copy this pattern.

We are not talking about 7 years ago. We are talking about today. How many are waiting in Orgrimmar for their dungeon to pop. That is exactly the play style when i play lobby games. TOR does NOT have LFD when it started .. part fo the complaint. In fact, LFD is so successful, that WOW put all raids on it too .. and soon we will have cross-realm too.

 

D3 may have millions playing it but can you get a massive amount of people on screen at once? No you cannot. Can you wage massive wars? Travel massive distances to meet up with your friends. Is D3 one massive world? Shit no it isn't and nor is it an MMO. Obviously your a wow fanboi desperately trying to keep the status quo and well look at SWTOR and Tera the latest wow clones crumbling... no wonder you are upset.

No. But i don't wage massive war when i play WOW either. And the only time you see a massive number of people at once in WOW is when you are in  a city, which does not really add much to the game.

You travel massive distance to meet up with friends in WOW?

I am not desperate to keep the status quo .. there are plenty of games that i like to play. The status quo is keeping itself. You sound more upset than i am ... in fact, i am going to do another Act 2 run now.

 

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12258

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Project Gorgon, and Combat Arms

7/28/12 1:45:44 PM#94
Originally posted by Garvon3
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Garvon3

First... design which makes soloing the easiest, and most profitable way to play the game, and a game which is 95% solo content, pretty much sidelines grouping.

Then your issue is really grouping vs solo, not socialization or non 'anti-MMO' features, correct?

I say that because so far not only is there no data to support solo gameplay detracting from the social aspect of MMOs. The games that have developed extensive community and interaction beyond the guild and group units have been games that not only support solo and group play but see an extreme amount of solo play at all levels of player activity. Some examples would be EVE Online, Second Life, Ultima Online, and A Tale in the Desert.

Er, except grouping was entirely necessarily in just about all those games you listed. Working with other players. You just could NOT play the game entirely solo, unlike the WoW clones that dominate the market today.

If everyone is playing alone, no one can possibly socialize.

Collaboration and interaction, yes. Grouping, no. You're going to need to learn the distinction if you wish to understand any of this, expecially with your very limited knowledge of this subject.

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  Distopia

Drifter

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 15588

"what a boring life, HATING everything" -Gorilla Biscuits

7/28/12 1:50:51 PM#95

I don't look at any feature as detrimental to MMO game-play, anything can be done in an MMO be it cutscenes, storylines etc.. as long as features that create a social environment are also in place. The problem is over the last decade, social features have been put on the back burner behind everything else.

For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12258

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Project Gorgon, and Combat Arms

7/28/12 1:55:10 PM#96
Originally posted by Distopia

I don't look at any feature as detrimental to MMO game-play, anything can be done in an MMO be it cutscenes, storylines etc.. as long as features that create a social environment are also in place. The problem is over the last decade, social features have been put on the back burner behind everything else.

I also think that's a problem with today's MMOs. As devs do their damnedest to force everyone into one spot in hopes of a happy lovefest occurring, they have actually moved away from any tools, features or mechanics that facilitate social interaction and, on a greater level, community building.

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  Whyhate

Novice Member

Joined: 7/19/12
Posts: 43

7/28/12 1:57:58 PM#97
Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by Garvon3

This isn't a discussion about immersion, it's about socializing. And no, instancing is insanely immersion breaking.

In LotRO, running around, finding a cave, getting a message "You cannot enter here without the right quest." Yeah, immersion!

In a virtual world full of adventurers it makes sense for other people to be in dungeons.

It actually kinda doesn't make sense.

People in novels or movies don't just stumble upon a bunch of other tourists when they explore dungeons/ruins/caves/etc.

Novels or movies....

We are talking about MMOs, virtual worlds.

  Garvon3

Novice Member

Joined: 3/17/10
Posts: 2943

7/28/12 2:06:09 PM#98
Originally posted by Whyhate
Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by Garvon3

This isn't a discussion about immersion, it's about socializing. And no, instancing is insanely immersion breaking.

In LotRO, running around, finding a cave, getting a message "You cannot enter here without the right quest." Yeah, immersion!

In a virtual world full of adventurers it makes sense for other people to be in dungeons.

It actually kinda doesn't make sense.

People in novels or movies don't just stumble upon a bunch of other tourists when they explore dungeons/ruins/caves/etc.

Novels or movies....

We are talking about MMOs, virtual worlds.

Exactly. MMOs simulate worlds.

Singleplayer games simulate movies.

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

7/28/12 2:59:44 PM#99
Originally posted by Garvon3

Exactly. MMOs simulate worlds.

Singleplayer games simulate movies.

Immersion is the synchronization between expectations and experiences.

Players might have two types of expectations about a cave.  One is reflected in novels or movies, and involves exploring a dangerous place.  The other is visiting a tourist cave alongside 100 other tourists.

The first one sounds way more interesting, and way more immersive.

 

  Khayotix

Novice Member

Joined: 11/02/08
Posts: 222

If I ever kill you, you'll be awake, you'll be facing me, and you'll be armed.

7/28/12 5:42:04 PM#100
Originally posted by Scot

Most of the specific issues can be summed up in more general terms:

Design which makes you not need to travel.
Design which speeds up levelling.
Design which reduces your ability to explore.
Design which hinders you ability to meet players again.
Design which sidelines grouping.
Design which sidelines crafting.
Design which cuts out roleplaying tools.
Design which makes you pay to win.
Design which makes MMO’s too easy.


Finally to sum up:

Design which puts graphics before gameplay and gameplay before the multiplayer experience.

SOMEONE BUY THIS MAN A KEG!!!! A BEER JUST DOESNT CUT IT!

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