Originally posted by Gallus85

Originally posted by Whyhate

GW2 doesn't have open world PVP and it's not a sandbox or a hybrid.

It's a themepark.

OP is looking for a sandbox game.

That's about it.... 

Oh and i will have fun with ArcheAge, unlike GW2, it will hold my attention for more than 2-3 months like every other shallow themepark MMO with no player created content and kill 10 quests... i mean Dynamic Events.

[mod edit]

Imo, GW2 does have OWPVP.  The landmass where the Siege warfare takes place is 10 square miles large, with hundreds of forts and objectives to attack and defend.

You seem to think OWPVP has to constitute some sort of FFA PVE world where people are allowed to kill and steal from each other at any time.  That may be your opinion (that you want a mixed PVE + PVP world), but that's not what "makes a sandbox" and everyone has their own definition of what one is.

PVE + PVP FFA didn't work in Shadowbane, it didn't work in DF, it didn't work in SWG, it didn't work in MO.  What makes you think Archeage is going to be some bastion of amazing PVP?  Aside from the combat system being about as boring as WoW's?  We already know the PVE in Archeage is extremely bland and average (Works exactly like standard themepark quests), so you think the ability to build houses and gank people is going to be some sort of amazing experience?

[mod edit]

GW2 is estimated to sell 3 million copies by the end of 2012.  We're not hurting for players.

Immersion makes good pvp.

PVP has been put in a tiny little box, and still it's one group steamrolling the other. Only now the loser gets a reward and xp and whatever else they can hand out to the lambs to lead them to the wolves. It's the same as always.

I know you said you think GW2 sucks, but it doesnt.

That being said I am very much looking forward to the following games:

GW2

Neverwinter

TESO

The War Z

possibly Blizzard's Titan Project.  Holding out hope it does for PvE Sandbox games what WoW did for PvE Themepark games.

Other games I know alot of people are hyped about that I am not are: Archeage, Repopulation, Planetside 2 or any of the myriad of indie games that have grown a cult like following here on mmorpg.com jsut because it has the word sandbox in its description bio.  You would think with the failure of MO and DF people would realize that games like Salem, Embers of Caerus, and Repopulation have little chance in becoming mainsteam or for that fact any good.

I registered to reply to this thread...

Anyways @ OP and maybe others. There will never be a MMORPG like the originals. UO - EQ1 - DAOC - SWG

There isn't any money to be made because of how MMORPG has evolved. (yeah its blizzards fault with WoW but hey, they rich now which is the point of developing software for profit)

What I do is play those old games on free shards. Emulation servers set to act like the originals.

Eq 1- Project 1999 - If you like a huge world, tons of content, grouping and unforgiving death penalties, its great. I got a 57 warrior there. Pretty active server, around 500-700 at peaks.

DAOC - Uthgard free shard - Grouping - RVR PVP - still lots of fun, got a troll zerker, rr6 or so. 

UO and SWG - haven't researched any emulation servers yet...I'm sure they exist though.

So to OP if you want that old school gaming experience, with a bunch of like minded people, that is your best bet. 

Originally posted by Gallus85

Originally posted by Whyhate

GW2 doesn't have open world PVP and it's not a sandbox or a hybrid.

It's a themepark.

OP is looking for a sandbox game.

That's about it.... 

Oh and i will have fun with ArcheAge, unlike GW2, it will hold my attention for more than 2-3 months like every other shallow themepark MMO with no player created content and kill 10 quests... i mean Dynamic Events.

If all it takes is crafting houses, ganking people while PVEing and killing mindless/lifeless NPCs over and over again to entertain you, I feel sorry for ya.

Imo, GW2 does have OWPVP.  The landmass where the Siege warfare takes place is 10 square miles large, with hundreds of forts and objectives to attack and defend.

You seem to think OWPVP has to constitute some sort of FFA PVE world where people are allowed to kill and steal from each other at any time.  That may be your opinion (that you want a mixed PVE + PVP world), but that's not what "makes a sandbox" and everyone has their own definition of what one is.

PVE + PVP FFA didn't work in Shadowbane, it didn't work in DF, it didn't work in SWG, it didn't work in MO.  What makes you think Archeage is going to be some bastion of amazing PVP?  Aside from the combat system being about as boring as WoW's?  We already know the PVE in Archeage is extremely bland and average (Works exactly like standard themepark quests), so you think the ability to build houses and gank people is going to be some sort of amazing experience?

I'm done talking to you, kid.  Enjoy making your dresses in Archeage.

GW2 is estimated to sell 3 million copies by the end of 2012.  We're not hurting for players.

Another cliche, WOW has open world PVP and it's not a FFA gankfest.

GW2 has 3 or 4 zones where people go to PVP, that's the exact opposite of open world PVP.

So you dominated in UO-Pre trammel?? 

Feel sorry for me? kid? why are you so angry? We are talking about games here.... lol

3 Million sales... woot!, and then in 1 year it will have 300k players, just like every other over hyped mainstream casual themepark.

You talk like if ArcheAge was a themepark and GW2 a sandbox.

In one you either kill mobs... or kill players in PVP, there is nothing else to do.

In the other one, you can do whatever you want, from crafting a town with your guild, crafting your own ship, your own glider, having your own farm, cutting down trees, underwater treasure hunting, having mounts, a skillbar with more than 5 buttons, massive non-instanced world with player crated factions, politics, open world dungeons, a real economy, no instant teleport, no soft grouping, etc etc etc

Which one is a sandbox/hybrid and which one is a themepark?

"The big unique and huge selling point of GW2 is the fact that the PVE content, the DE's, actually change the world.  Especially the later level content.  Save a town from orcs, the town thrives.  Lose the fight or ignore their plight and it's taken over by the monsters.  This is the kind of PVE content people are looking for.  PVE that matters, makes a difference, has consequence and real rewards outside exp/loot."

Seriously? nothing changes, 10 minutes later it's the same scripted event again. How is that PVE with consequences and "real rewards"? lol

Man, if they'd just make EQ1 with updated graphics and engine, oh and 3rd person, the 1st person view was the only thing i didn't like about eq1. (they had a 3rd person option but it wasn't very good, not natural) 

Oh, and tweak the classes some, but nothing huge.

I'd be such a huge fan. I'd heard that's what they're doing with eq next, but pay 2 win is going to be there payment method and that can only end badly. 

I used to think i wanted a sandbox, I don't. Crafting bores me, owning a house is a hassle not something to be excited about, I don't want to own a plot of land. I don't like to quest either though. I want to kill things, explore and have the lore revealed to me that way. I guess I want what's being refered to as an open theme park.

GW2 seems to have promise, at least short term, for my personal taste there is too much pew pew pew pew going on in that game.

Originally posted by Whyhate

 

 

GW2 has 3 or 4 zones where people go to PVP, that's the exact opposite of open world PVP

3 Million sales... woot!, and then in 1 year it will have 300k players, just like every other over hyped mainstream casual themepark.

 

You talk like if ArcheAge was a themepark and GW2 a sandbox.

 

In one you either kill mobs... or kill players in PVP, there is nothing else to do.

 

In the other one, you can do whatever you want, from crafting a town with your guild, crafting your own ship, your own glider, having your own farm, cutting down trees, underwater treasure hunting, having mounts, a skillbar with more than 5 buttons, massive non-instanced world with player crated factions, politics, open world dungeons, a real economy, no instant teleport, no soft grouping, etc etc etc

 

Which one is a sandbox/hybrid and which one is a themepark?

 

"The big unique and huge selling point of GW2 is the fact that the PVE content, the DE's, actually change the world.  Especially the later level content.  Save a town from orcs, the town thrives.  Lose the fight or ignore their plight and it's taken over by the monsters.  This is the kind of PVE content people are looking for.  PVE that matters, makes a difference, has consequence and real rewards outside exp/loot."

Seriously? nothing changes, 10 minutes later it's the same scripted event again. How is that PVE with consequences and "real rewards"? lol

GW2 has ~15 button skill bar (You wouldn't know since you never played the game)

GW2 you can cut down trees (You wouldn't know since you never played the game)

GW2 the DE events don't work anything like you described, outside a handful of nooby zone starter DE's.  Most of the mid to end game DE's are chaining events, that cycle over a long period of time and have multiple possible outcomes depending on the success and failures throughout the chain. (You wouldn't know since you never played the game)

GW2 has Hard Grouping and soft grouping (You wouldn't know since you never played the game)

GW2 has underwater exploration (You wouldn't know since you never played the game)

Darkfall is a sandbox and has instant teleporting (You wouldn't know since you never played the game)

GW2 doesn't have mounts.  Good job.

GW sold over 6 and a half million copies over the course of 6 years (So a lot more than 300k people kept interest for more than 3 months apparently)

Darkfall had 300k people (maybe 200k) try the beta.  The game currently has 4 servers with ~1000 active players each.  So I guess about 192k, about 92% of the people who played the game couldn't be bothered to stick around (Guess it had too much playe made-content eh?)

Mortal Online has ~2000 players messing around with the game.

SWG was tanking even before they made the terrible changes to it, and it' completely dead now.

EvE is the ONLY success sandbox as of yet.  And for good reason.

GW is about 7 years old and has more active players than every sandbox MMORPG that's currently running put together by about 20 fold. (Excluding EvE)

Not saying Sandbox is bad, far from it.  I've played them all because I want them to be great and I enjoy the play style.  But obviously what some of you people think a "sandbox" is supposed to be is not the right way to go about doing it.

Archeage has the graphics.  It has the weeaboo appeal with the art and animation style.  It has "sandbox" elements that are fun.  But the rest of the game is hollow and that's why it will tank like the rest.

I can't remember how much I paid for GW1, not sure if it's 10$ or 5$.  Everything is cheaper in asia(Taiwan).  I don't think we even need to pay for the mist of panda expansion.  We just get it.

I think GW2 have potential.  Hopefully they'll keep releasing new expansion etc every year or two.

I dont' think it's fair to say GW1 have more current subscriber compare to other games, since it's virtually free after the initial payment.  Besides no one really know how many people actually is playing GW1 monthly.  Besides from xfire. 

Originally posted by Gallus85

Originally posted by Whyhate

 

 

GW2 has 3 or 4 zones where people go to PVP, that's the exact opposite of open world PVP

3 Million sales... woot!, and then in 1 year it will have 300k players, just like every other over hyped mainstream casual themepark.

 

You talk like if ArcheAge was a themepark and GW2 a sandbox.

 

In one you either kill mobs... or kill players in PVP, there is nothing else to do.

 

In the other one, you can do whatever you want, from crafting a town with your guild, crafting your own ship, your own glider, having your own farm, cutting down trees, underwater treasure hunting, having mounts, a skillbar with more than 5 buttons, massive non-instanced world with player crated factions, politics, open world dungeons, a real economy, no instant teleport, no soft grouping, etc etc etc

 

Which one is a sandbox/hybrid and which one is a themepark?

 

"The big unique and huge selling point of GW2 is the fact that the PVE content, the DE's, actually change the world.  Especially the later level content.  Save a town from orcs, the town thrives.  Lose the fight or ignore their plight and it's taken over by the monsters.  This is the kind of PVE content people are looking for.  PVE that matters, makes a difference, has consequence and real rewards outside exp/loot."

Seriously? nothing changes, 10 minutes later it's the same scripted event again. How is that PVE with consequences and "real rewards"? lol

GW2 has ~15 button skill bar (You wouldn't know since you never played the game)

Still very limited.

GW2 you can cut down trees (You wouldn't know since you never played the game)

In Dynamic Events, and you can't do anything with them.

And even if you can craft something with it, the crafting in GW2 is shallow as hell so who actually cares.

Look at the big picture, in ArcheAge you plant your own trees in your garden and them cut them down.

In GW2, you are doing Dynamic Event objectives... a same old pick this quest.

GW2 the DE events don't work anything like you described, outside a handful of nooby zone starter DE's.  Most of the mid to end game DE's are chaining events, that cycle over a long period of time and have multiple possible outcomes depending on the success and failures throughout the chain. (You wouldn't know since you never played the game)

10 minutes, 30 minutes, it's still the same, nothing really happens. And the majority of DE are all mostly generic kill something or pick something, only a limited amount of DEs chain, it's scripted content that recycles all the time, it's still the same old, kill mobs for XP so you can lvl up... that's the whole game.

GW2 has Hard Grouping and soft grouping (You wouldn't know since you never played the game)

Everyone auto joins while a Dynamic Event starts, nobody says a word, the event ends, everyone leaves, exactly like in rift, soft grouping, no community. Of course you can start your own group too, doesn't change the fact that the grouping in GW2 is very very casual.

GW2 has underwater exploration (You wouldn't know since you never played the game

I wouldn't call that exploration, it's just another place where you can kill mobs, you can't really do anything there.

Darkfall is a sandbox and has instant teleporting (You wouldn't know since you never played the game)

So? doesn't change the fact that instant teleporting is an extremely casual feature that kills the open world feel and makes the world empty and dead.

GW2 doesn't have mounts.  Good job.

GW sold over 6 and a half million copies over the course of 6 years (So a lot more than 300k people kept interest for more than 3 months apparently,

Honestly, i don't know, i couldn't play GW1 for more than a week.

Darkfall had 300k people (maybe 200k) try the beta.  The game currently has 4 servers with ~1000 active players each.  So I guess about 192k, about 92% of the people who played the game couldn't be bothered to stick around (Guess it had too much playe made-content eh?)

Who said anything about Darkfall? Player made content wasn't the problem LOL, player made content isn't a bad thing, it's the only thing to do when you finish all the dev created content, that's why almost every themepark released in the last 8 years ended up F2P or dead with 1-5 servers after selling millions of boxes. 

Darkfall tanked because it was a low budget indie gankfest with a horrible net code.

Mortal Online has ~2000 players messing around with the game.

So? It's another low budget gankfest.

SWG was tanking even before they made the terrible changes to it, and it' completely dead now.

So? it was doing fine before the CU and the NGE, not wow numbers but with a solid 300-400k playerbase.

EvE is the ONLY success sandbox as of yet.  And for good reason.

UO was succesful,  the rest where all low budget indie gankfests.

GW is about 7 years old and has more active players than every sandbox MMORPG that's currently running put together by about 20 fold. (Excluding EvE)

Excluding WOW, EvE is the MMO with most subs on the west (and if SWTOR still has more than 400k subs, give it 1 or 2 months) so?

Having more players than a bunch of... again... low budget indie gankfests isn't something surprising.

Not saying Sandbox is bad, far from it.  I've played them all because I want them to be great and I enjoy the play style.  But obviously what some of you people think a "sandbox" is supposed to be is not the right way to go about doing it.

Indeed, you played them ALL, im not sure what are you trying to say, first GW2 was a sandbox, then it was a hybrid, now sandboxes are all crap and nobody likes to play them.

Im not sure if you really played them all, i mean you don't even know what a sandbox or open world PVP is, seems fishy.

Yeah im not buying it, you use the same old cliches that every sandbox hater uses, profits over gameplay, if it's not mainstream it sucks, and a new one "there isn't a single good sandbox MMO, all of them failed, but i played them all and i love them!!!!!!!!"

Archeage has the graphics.  It has the weeaboo appeal with the art and animation style.  It has "sandbox" elements that are fun.  But the rest of the game is hollow and that's why it will tank like the rest.

The animations are normal, they aren't over the top.

The art style isn't "weaaboo" at all, there is an eastern faction with eastern themed art style (but not over the top), and a western faction with western themed art style.

AA is on closed beta and it also has dynamic events, they are also adding mob invasions and tsunamis on the next closed beta ( You wouldn't know since you never played the game )

So is GW2 a sandbox or not? OP was looking for a sandbox MMO, why are you giving me this long speech about how sandbox MMOs are shit? It's clear that you like casual themeparks.

Why should i even care about how much SWG sold or if Mortal Online has 2000 players?

What has any of all that stuff got to do with GW2 being a sandbox or not?

But yes, in my opinion, GW2 is clearly over hyped and it's going to lose a lot of players over the next months, and by the time ArcheAge releases, GW2 will be just another themepark that was fun for a couple of months, The only competition AA will have in the west in 2014 will be TESO, Firefly and maybe WoD if it ever gets released.

I was never arguing about Sandbox or themeparks and which one is superior.... i was only saying that GW2 is... just another themepark in a genre filled with themeparks, and for people like the OP who are bored of themeparks and want a sandbox, GW2 isn't a good option.

For people who are bored to death of themeparks, GW2 isn't different enough, looking at the big picture, it's still the same old, kill things to lvl up, no meaningful way to interact with other players, no content besided combat, no politics, shallow crafting, no way to interact and affect the world, GW2 looks like a good MMO to play every couple of months for some mindless fun, but it's not meant to be played as a main MMO for years if one likes more sandboxy games with Depth on the level of UO or EvE.

That's why i don't believe you actually played all those games that you say you played, or if you actually like sandboxes.

You see AA and the only thing you see is a mob grinder, when the reality is that AA is an MMO with more options, freedom, depth, playstyles and things to do than GW2, which is all about combat, killing mobs and PVP in a couple of zones agains't people you don't know of other server.

There isn't even a reason to PVP with them... they are just from a different server, that's it.

Sandboxes aren't better than themeparks, they are 2 different genres suited for 2 different kind of players, i never implyed anything like that, you seem to be stuck on a weird themepark vs sandbox mentality.

a completly feel the same  im bored to death with these so called mmos and the combat system is the same old crap we been playing for years and years whitch i hate  ug i do enjoy battlefield 3 but sometimes i need a break from it and you should try dragons dogma its a nice chainge but not multi player

Originally posted by quicknuts

a completly feel the same  im bored to death with these so called mmos and the combat system is the same old crap we been playing for years and years whitch i hate  ug i do enjoy battlefield 3 but sometimes i need a break from it and you should try dragons dogma its a nice chainge but not multi player

Im on the same boat, but at least i get some weeks maybe a month or 2 of fun with every themepark, SWTOR was fun for a month, TSW for 2 weeks, now GW2 looks like a solid 1 month filler.

Heard great things about Dragon Dogma, but im still waiting for the GOTY edition to play it with all the DLCs.

Originally posted by tixylix

I had my hopes on SWTOR and GW2 but they both suck and I know the GW2 fanbois will come along like they do with any MMO before launch but I just thought it was more of the same. Just looking at the list I cannot find anything, been trying MMOs since SWG was ruined in 2005 and I haven't found one I've liked in seven years nearly now. The best way to describe it is in the FPS genre and how they're all COD now, every game is just trying to be COD and it's so boring that I don't bother with them. The same thing with MMOS, every MMO is just trying to be WoW with a gimmick that makes it slightly different. The only MMO out there right now that is any different is EVE Online but that's all about unfair fights so doesn't appeal to me. 

...

And than rabid GW2 funboys came and completely ruined your thread ;)

Regarding your OP, hope we will not wait for too long, maybe some mad indie team already working on it as we speak but I can't see anything on horizon, not yet.

What I don't understand is this "obsession" from people wanting non-mainstream features and AAA production budgets in the same game. Can't happen, won't happen, forget about it. It's like asking for a sports car that can double-up as truck. No deal.

If you're looking for a seemless world, for group content, for travel that matters, for death penalties then you're not looking for a mainstream game. But only mainstream games have AAA production budgets.

Originally posted by Larsa

What I don't understand is this "obsession" from people wanting non-mainstream features and AAA production budgets in the same game. Can't happen, won't happen, forget about it. It's like asking for a sports car that can double-up as truck. No deal.

If you're looking for a seemless world, for group content, for travel that matters, for death penalties then you're not looking for a mainstream game. But only mainstream games have AAA production budgets.

You are making the same mistake. You are asking for logic, reasoning and matureness in an internet forum.

Originally posted by freston

Originally posted by Larsa

What I don't understand is this "obsession" from people wanting non-mainstream features and AAA production budgets in the same game. Can't happen, won't happen, forget about it. It's like asking for a sports car that can double-up as truck. No deal.

If you're looking for a seemless world, for group content, for travel that matters, for death penalties then you're not looking for a mainstream game. But only mainstream games have AAA production budgets.

You are making the same mistake. You are asking for logic, reasoning and matureness in an internet forum.

There is logic in both statements, there is reason for debate and certainly we are all mature more than enough. ;)

Originally posted by Larsa

What I don't understand is this "obsession" from people wanting non-mainstream features and AAA production budgets in the same game. Can't happen, won't happen, forget about it. It's like asking for a sports car that can double-up as truck. No deal.

If you're looking for a seemless world, for group content, for travel that matters, for death penalties then you're not looking for a mainstream game. But only mainstream games have AAA production budgets.

This won't stop happening because that what people want. 

If you want to have cold-facts very meritum discussion without emotions clouding judgement then you need to look for smaller more specialized / proffesional / game dev  forums, instead of trying to demand that on mainstream huge public forums.

nothing!play farmville!huge amount of people play it!

But you never played them, they haven't been implemented yet, how could you know that?? 

Please, show me an AA video with over the top animations, please!