Originally posted by grounnn

Originally posted by Macecard

Originally posted by grounnn

Originally posted by Eivi

'...' is not a valid form of punctuation for ever other sentance. I just stopped reading it....

Actually "..." is a very valid form of punctuation, it's called an ellipsis. Here's the Definition:

Ellipsis (plural ellipses; from the Ancient Greek: ?λλειψις, élleipsis, "omission" or "falling short") is a series of marks that usually indicate an intentional omission of a word, sentence or whole section from the original text being quoted. An ellipsis can also be used to indicate an unfinished thought or, at the end of a sentence, a trailing off into silence (aposiopesis), example: "But I thought he was . . ." When placed at the beginning or end of a sentence, the ellipsis can also inspire a feeling of melancholy or longing. The ellipsis calls for a slight pause in speech or any other form of text, but it is incorrect to use ellipses solely to indicate a pause in speech.

So the OP is a quote and not the opinion of the poster? doesnt that mean it should have been in " "?

I'm only correcting the person who said that the ellipsis was not a valid punctuation. I did not say that the OP was using it correctly :)

 

fair

/takebacksarcasm

Originally posted by Macecard

Seems to me that the OP would struggle to stop himself from hitting the *Take me to the closing scene/battle/credits for $20" option if it was given to him.

I see this as Fat ppl blaming McDonalds for their weight. No one is making you buy these items and most games with any common sense (GW2, Lotr) make it so that the game is totally playable WITHOUT having buy anything from their cashshop.

Word.

Originally posted by Eivi

'...' is not a valid form of punctuation for ever other sentance. I just stopped reading it....

You misspelled 'every'. I read you criticism, I just discounted it...

I can see pros and cons to both sides of the coin, so to speak, on this subject.

F2P with their CS content, provides an avenue for people to play, or as it was stated "try", a game out and if they like it enough to cough up some cash they can at their leisure and on what they choose. It also limits the devolper in what they can provide as new content as they have an unpredictable flow of income and therefore can only provide so much without empting the confers and going upside down on costs.

On the other hand, the P2P model minus the CS allows a consistant and measurable income for the company in which to plan future content and enhancements and therefore can provide new meaningful content. It also, in my opinion, encourages gamers to play the game more often, becasue they are paying for the game monthly, and thus adding to the overall experience and community of the game. 

Back in the day I could never have imagined paying for the new look or that flashy new mount because everything I needed was already in the game and could be obtained from inside the game and what had been released in expansions. I was also ignorant to think that the game I was playing would be online for my life time (I so laugh at that these days).

Now though, the F2P does have some appeal to me considering the rollercoaster ride of the MMO industry. Why would I pay monthly for a game that in a years time could close it's doors? I would NEVER consider paying a life time sub any longer for ANY game for that exact reason as well. F2P on the other hand gives me the opportunity to play that game and not spend anything if I so choose and if the game bombs or the developer/backer decides to pull the plug, I have lost nothing but time.

I do still pay subs for games I deem worthy in my eyes such as DAOC, which I still play, however, I do not run out and sub to the new games any longer until I have researched, played beta, read reviews, or otherwise have a good grasp on how the game will look in a years time.

Bottom line, the industry has changed and will continue to change and we, as gamers old and new, have to change with it or find another avenue for our escape from reality.

i agree with the OP mainly but its a dead horse.  THe worst thing that ever happened to this genre is this new crop of player.

This F2P model is actually a symtom of a much larger issue.  Society is rotting from the inside out and mass appeal of the F2p model is an indicator.

Originally posted by metatronic

For those who can't read.. Don't support free to play, because nothing is free and you will pay more in the long run. You new era of gamers are single handidly destroying mmo's.. Any old school mmo'ers I know for fact would never support this crap.

 

Btw, I have a great job and could more than afford to pay to win at any game... the point is, whats the point of playing then?

it''s no use trying to argue, people (probably from the USA) have broken logic today, obviously Free to play CANT be more expensive in the long run because it has the word FREE in it ... duhhh

Kind of like how giving tax breaks to poor people is welfare, but taking away tax breaks from Billionaires is "Class Warfare"

Originally posted by Rekindle

i agree with the OP mainly but its a dead horse.  THe worst thing that ever happened to this genre is this new crop of player.

 

This F2P model is actually a symtom of a much larger issue.  Society is rotting from the inside out and mass appeal of the F2p model is an indicator.

 

 

Or this ... yeah pretty much this ^^^

I prefer a B2P model. Games shouldnt be free, but I have been let down too many times by subscription models that just don't deliver enough monthly content to justify $10-15 per month. I prefer to actively decide which content patches I want, it helps keep the company accountable for delivering quality content.

Originally posted by zipzap

Originally posted by metatronic

For those who can't read.. Don't support free to play, because nothing is free and you will pay more in the long run. You new era of gamers are single handidly destroying mmo's.. Any old school mmo'ers I know for fact would never support this crap.

 

Btw, I have a great job and could more than afford to pay to win at any game... the point is, whats the point of playing then?

you are entitled to your own opinion...

but im pretty sure that when subs were first introduced that there were a lot of ppl against that as well... times are changing hopefully not to the worse. hopefully cashshop wont lead to pay2win... and NO NOT ALL GAMES WITH CASHSHOPS ARE PAY2WIN

Regardless if an online MMO has a cash shop or not it's already pay to win by things such as Computer spec, connection standard and speed.  Another form of Pay to win was already being done in MMO's since they began by players using multi accounts to gain advantages over those who didn't have subs to multi accounts.

i have yet to play any free to play at release title that i did not uninstall after a week at the very most so this is kinda a mote point . Some may enjoy all these asian grinders and foreign games releasing over here but you can tell a mile away the quality of them sucks and they are all wow clones in almost every regard. I think the only game released as a free to play game from overseas that people actually enjoyed in a larger scale was allods online and they forced end game cash shop items and death items in a pvp game and now you can look at what that got them with hardly any population at all playing now .

Pay to play games that had subs and went f2p because their pops were declining are a totally different story , they are polished and not crap and most have an expensive yet fair cash shop to play but what do you expect? they have to generate revenue because they have numbers of devs trying to make a living compared to the couple of asian guys that made this clone or that and stole half they code anyways from someone else.Yes ive run into full sound files from world of warcraft in over three games released from korea and china so yes it happens all the time as china is a well known thief and pirating state.

Games like WOW and TSW , Rift etc have cash shops on top of sub fees, I think thats greedy and dishonest but hey its my opinion and if no one was buying those pixels then they wouldnt be wasting dev resources on making it. People need to realize that in this world the only thing that talks loud and screams to anyone running a business is money and this stuff wouldnt be happening if people didnt pay for it. Think about all the suckers that bought D3 souly because of the real world auction house where blizzard takes 30% of your money to see.

OP you just need to man up and change like the rest of the world and accept it or leave the genre because its here to stay regardless if you do or not . People have to feed their families and want lavish paychecks with vacation and benefits. It may be cheaper nowadays to make an  mmorpg then 5 years ago or 10 years but its not cheaper to live thus paychecks go up and they have to try and bring in revenue from other means because people would quit the game and cry if they raised sub fees instead. My boy works at ANet right now as a dev and i make more money then him as a bar manager and have a better insurence package so exactly why are their wages not great yet they cant make money to pay them a little more when they work harder then i do and I make a lot more money?

Originally posted by metatronic

For those who can't read.. Don't support free to play, because nothing is free and you will pay more in the long run. You new era of gamers are single handidly destroying mmo's.. Any old school mmo'ers I know for fact would never support this crap.

 

Btw, I have a great job and could more than afford to pay to win at any game... the point is, whats the point of playing then?

I actually played many free mmo's and didnt pay Anything at all, had fun and when i got bored, i just left, and im pretty sure more than one already did this at least once, the ones who Pay anything its because they want, you are not forced to do it.

Since there´s no MMO with good end-game nowadays and almost every MMO, require you to grind forever to be mighty, I have lost interest in something called: fun begins at end-game. I play nowadays, for the progress and the fun, nothing more. That´s basiaclly why, I always end up, palying games for around 1-3 months, reach lvl cap, get some fun in duengons and stuff and then: ok, let´s change game.

This happens over and over again nowadays and that´s basiaclly why I perfer if every game goes free to play. As long as there´s quality, I don´t care for the P2W aspect because I don´t really focus on end-game anyway.

PS. Guild Wars 2 isn´t P2W and if you actually think this way, you have prob not played MMOs enough to understand the word. Not to be rude or something, everyone has an opinion, but there are many things where you should '' understand '' before talking to not end up taking the wrong path.

Originally posted by eGumball

Since there´s no MMO with good end-game nowadays and almost every MMO, require you to grind forever to be mighty, I have lost interest in something called: fun begins at end-game. I play nowadays, for the progress and the fun, nothing more. That´s basiaclly why, I always end up, palying games for around 1-3 months, reach lvl cap, get some fun in duengons and stuff and then: ok, let´s change game.

This happens over and over again nowadays and that´s basiaclly why I perfer if every game goes free to play. As long as there´s quality, I don´t care for the P2W aspect because I don´t really focus on end-game anyway.

PS. Guild Wars 2 isn´t P2W and if you actually think this way, you have prob not played MMOs enough to understand the word. Not to be rude or something, everyone has an opinion, but there are many things where you should '' understand '' before talking to not end up taking the wrong path.

I used to like raiding .. I like the "concept" but people ruin it.  I play for fun, not as a second job where I get fired for not studying every move possible for every encounter in the game.  In the day,  the fun for me was wiping and learning the new bosses by trial and error .. and the elattion of finally beating them.  But near the end,  the guilds just wanted you to study youtube and insta-kill every boss or they got pissed..  Not my idea of fun

So I have been with you latley,  mainly soaking in and enjoying the journey and avoiding people who make games stressful.

Sorry OP - its pretty much inevitable that many games will be going this route. Considering the quality of games and the utter gullibility of the gaming populace, we will see more and more games going the pay to win route.

The MMO genre and its community just sinks lower and lower. Eventually, we will see a resurgence of the golden age of MMO's where creativity and innovation were actually valued. But the market first needs to get oversaturated with shallow Pay to Wins first.

GW2 is the first incremental step. The blind fanboyism is really the killing factor in this genre.Just how the blind fanboys destroyed SW TOR by not demanding more from Bioware, the fans will drag this genre down to Pay to Win by not demanding more for their money.

I know this may sound like a depressing post, but I'm just being realistic here. You can just sift through the posts in this thread and see where the community is headed.

The sad reality is that after 2006 when WoW gained steam, I saw the MMO genre fall from boundless potential to mediocrity and stupidity. Now, its like watching a train wreck in slow motion.

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by Normike

Originally posted by shockme

Give me a break!  F2P is fine and in many ways better.  If you dont like it dont play!

Stop whinning booo hooo... 

Why is it to stay competitive in games F2P games like Lotro, STO, DDO you end up spending more per month than a subscription would cost? Why do game companies that start of as subscription but later go F2P start making more money as F2P? Those two things are related.

To stay competitive against...?

Spending more per month than a sub? So only 5-10% stays competitive?

You'd have less questions if you stuck to real facts instead of making stuff up and trying to answer it. 

 

"Why do game companies that start of as subscription but later go F2P start making more money as F2P? Those two things are related."

 

Because MMO gamers prefer F2P is the most logical answer, but your initial spew of talking points seems to indicate you probably think it's some nefarious conspiracy of psychological mindscrewing and parlor tricks to convince people that's what they would like.

 

Watch the pendulum and count backwards from 10 to 1, sir.  Wipe all subscription thoughts out of your mind and start counting.... slowly.... 10... 9... 8... that's it... you loooove free to play.... 7... 6... 5... you're feeling sleepy...

 

 

Yep, that's exactly what I mean. Using staying "competitive" in the sense of beingin the top few percent in terms of content progression and gear upgrades. To stay in that top percent of players in a F2P game you end up actually spending more per month than in a subscription based MMO. But you're saying no no no that's not true? Really? Have you played Lotro, STO, DDO recently? Read their player forums with people upset at how much extra their required to pay just to stay at the top levels of competition? That kind of money requirement is ridiculous. It makes no sense.

And yet most F2P games with cash shops end up going down this road in order to create a demand for the items their selling in their cash shop. It's definitely not parlor tricks. Players on the MMOs own forums are complaining about this insane pricing. Do you just not follow these F2P games or something?

Originally posted by Rekindle

i agree with the OP mainly but its a dead horse.  THe worst thing that ever happened to this genre is this new crop of player.

 

This F2P model is actually a symtom of a much larger issue.  Society is rotting from the inside out and mass appeal of the F2p model is an indicator.

 

 

Feel free to quit society and go live in the mountains.

We are talking about games .. entertainment products. Larger issue??? LOL. There is nothing wrong with whales subsidizing a majority of players to play free games. Everything is optional, and no one holds a gun to anyone's head.

Don't like it. Don't play. It is that simple.

Originally posted by Normike.

Yep, that's exactly what I mean. Using staying "competitive" in the sense of beingin the top few percent in terms of content progression and gear upgrades. To stay in that top percent of players in a F2P game you end up actually spending more per month than in a subscription based MMO. But you're saying no no no that's not true? Really? Have you played Lotro, STO, DDO recently?

LOTRO and DDO, yes. STO isn't my thing, so no. Can you link to the data you're referring to? The 5-10% I referred to what the percent of people that pay anything in a F2P MMO. It's a consistent number across almost all F2P MMOs. You're stating that those players are the 'top' players. Please support that. Also include...top of what, actually?

Read their player forums with people upset at how much extra their required to pay just to stay at the top levels of competition? That kind of money requirement is ridiculous. It makes no sense.

If they are competing against the other players in LOTRO and DDO, that's an arbitrary goal they have set and not part of any coded or intended gameplay. If either game has introduced some gameplay that requires you to compete against the others, and that competition requiring the expenses you suggest, please link to it.

And yet most F2P games with cash shops end up going down this road in order to create a demand for the items their selling in their cash shop. It's definitely not parlor tricks. Players on the MMOs own forums are complaining about this insane pricing. Do you just not follow these F2P games or something?

I definitely follow them. It's part of my job to. It's why I am very interested in what you're reading that's leading you to this rather odd conclusions.

DDO and LOTRO is pay to win?  you have to spend more than 15$ to compete in the top percentile?

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Rekindle

i agree with the OP mainly but its a dead horse.  THe worst thing that ever happened to this genre is this new crop of player.

 

This F2P model is actually a symtom of a much larger issue.  Society is rotting from the inside out and mass appeal of the F2p model is an indicator.

 

 

Feel free to quit society and go live in the mountains.

We are talking about games .. entertainment products. Larger issue??? LOL. There is nothing wrong with whales subsidizing a majority of players to play free games. Everything is optional, and no one holds a gun to anyone's head.

Don't like it. Don't play. It is that simple.

Actually we're not talking about games or just entertainment products. The concept of that we were talking about games went out the door when the f2p pandoras box was opened.  No longer are game makers selling a service that has with it attached a fee. 

F2P item shops change what the developers are selling.  Instead of selling a concise product they are using item shops to hone in on human behaviour, chiefly addiction.  Those item collection quests that used to be a fun distraction now become a vechicle for said game developer to pray on those foolish enough to shell out way more money than had there been a simply monthly fee.

As for the notion that if I don't like it don't play I'm not sure what it has to do with the larger issue.  I believed the dicussion to be about the longevity of the industry with a bit of retrospect tied in.  My own disposition to the model is rather moot.  The f2p path is the wrong way but its the way things are going.

Game makers are now merchants of OCD and the peddlers of addiction based services.

How does this tie in with the world at large? Greed. 

Had they stuck with their fee based systems and offered a simple pay as you go service we could be talking about other things.  But the same interests that have polluted your food, your water and your mind have also infiltrated your favorite pass time too. The F2p market is an indicator of a much greater problem indeed.

STOP the PAY to WIN MADNESS!!!!!!!....

but keep the F2P flowing