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MMORPG.com Discussion Forums

Guild Wars 2

Guild Wars 2 

General Discussion  » Poll: Do you prefer PvPing with or without a downed mechanic?

13 Pages First « 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 » Last Search
248 posts found
  terrant

Novice Member

Joined: 3/16/07
Posts: 1685

7/27/12 1:21:39 PM#121

"Fun" may be the most relative term possible in a game. Fun is up to the individual.

 

OP doesn't find Downed state fun. Acceptable. That's his opinion. Cool..

 

I can't say I 100% understand the reasoning, but that's his choice.

  otinanai123

Novice Member

Joined: 7/18/10
Posts: 272

 
OP  7/27/12 1:34:41 PM#122
Originally posted by terrant

"Fun" may be the most relative term possible in a game. Fun is up to the individual.

 

OP doesn't find Downed state fun. Acceptable. That's his opinion. Cool..

 

I can't say I 100% understand the reasoning, but that's his choice.

Maybe you'll understand 1-2 months after launch ;) 

  terrant

Novice Member

Joined: 3/16/07
Posts: 1685

7/27/12 1:38:54 PM#123
Originally posted by otinanai123
Originally posted by terrant

"Fun" may be the most relative term possible in a game. Fun is up to the individual.

 

OP doesn't find Downed state fun. Acceptable. That's his opinion. Cool..

 

I can't say I 100% understand the reasoning, but that's his choice.

Maybe you'll understand 1-2 months after launch ;) 

Not really. The only parts of your argument I understood were:

 

1) The Finish Him! mechanic heavily favors melee

2)  Assymmetric matchups are a bit more difficult to overcome if you are the smaller party. However, my reply from early in the thread still holds. It's more than doable, just requires a change in tactics.

 

I don't think it adds a whole hell of a lot to the pvp portion of the game other than a VERY slim chance for you to recover when things go bad, but I don't think it detracts either.

  otinanai123

Novice Member

Joined: 7/18/10
Posts: 272

 
OP  7/27/12 1:44:55 PM#124
Originally posted by terrant
Originally posted by otinanai123
Originally posted by terrant

"Fun" may be the most relative term possible in a game. Fun is up to the individual.

 

OP doesn't find Downed state fun. Acceptable. That's his opinion. Cool..

 

I can't say I 100% understand the reasoning, but that's his choice.

Maybe you'll understand 1-2 months after launch ;) 

Not really. The only parts of your argument I understood were:

 

1) The Finish Him! mechanic heavily favors melee

2)  Assymmetric matchups are a bit more difficult to overcome if you are the smaller party. However, my reply from early in the thread still holds. It's more than doable, just requires a change in tactics.

 

I don't think it adds a whole hell of a lot to the pvp portion of the game other than a VERY slim chance for you to recover when things go bad, but I don't think it detracts either.

1) which greatly reduces the number of viable builds and playstyles

2) not JUST a bit. I'd say a lot. It may be doable now when everyone is pretty much a newbie but later it won't.

My main argument is it's not FUN.

  StrixMaxima

Novice Member

Joined: 2/07/09
Posts: 890

7/27/12 1:47:47 PM#125
Originally posted by otinanai123
Originally posted by terrant

"Fun" may be the most relative term possible in a game. Fun is up to the individual.

 

OP doesn't find Downed state fun. Acceptable. That's his opinion. Cool..

 

I can't say I 100% understand the reasoning, but that's his choice.

Maybe you'll understand 1-2 months after launch ;) 

After reading all these pages since my question at page 1, I still cannot agree with your points, or acknowledge that they are a problem. I do accept that, under your subjective PoV, you don't like it. That's perfectly fine.

But your objections about zerging and teamplay are sorely undermined, and your definition of fun seems quite particular. Again, no problem in that.

After playing the game for a while, I was only frustrated by the Downed system when the Thief blink cooldown was screwy. Other than that, it rarely saved me from a sticky situation, but I could take advantage of it when my oppontents were not very zealous about finishing me off. Which sounds perfectly fine.

  BadSpock

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/21/04
Posts: 7677

Logic be damned!

7/27/12 1:48:11 PM#126
Originally posted by otinanai123

My main argument is it's not FUN.

That is an argument no one can win.

I think the downed mechanics are fun.

Alas, we are at a stand still!

;)

Now Playing: D3:RoS, Watch Dogs
Looking Towards: Destiny

  Gorudu

Novice Member

Joined: 8/11/09
Posts: 80

7/27/12 1:49:22 PM#127

I like it. I enjoy the fact that you have to finish someone, or be careful around downed people. It makes you pay attention. If you decided to get close to a downed engineer in the middle of a fight, he might just blow up your face and make you lose that fight. It makes you think.

  MikeB

MMORPG.com Community Manager

Joined: 5/27/09
Posts: 5400

7/27/12 1:51:12 PM#128
Originally posted by Derpybird
Originally posted by otinanai123

PvP should be both about winning and "the kill".

In your opinion.

PvP in GW2 is about teamwork and resource control, not about racking up kills.

It's fine if you don't like this approach to PvP, but there it is.

If you want to rack up kills and see who did the most DPS at the end of a match you have other choices.

I've never really understood why people find these two desires to be mutually exclusive. Part of capturing or holding objectives often involves kills. Either directly or peripherally. And kills are also given credit for in sPvP (10 points per kill, IIRC). So yes, killing on its own does matter. Even if points were not awarded for killing, seeking a sense of satisfaction from said kills shouldn't be alien or discouraged, even in a team setting. In objective-oriented team games there are often roles, and sometimes these roles even explicitly involve killing. The spy sapping the sentry farms and killing all the engineers gives way for the team to make a push, to use TF2 as an example. The enemy spy can also defang a push by taking out the medic healing the heavy (or any other high damage threat).

Personally, I love nothing more than focusing on a team effort and coming out on top. I don't mind giving up raw kill potential to become a force multiplier. I played a Knight of the Blazing Sun in WAR and fondly remember pushing up to the fort in Nordenwatch while guarding the backline with my shield.  These are great moments, but they aren't for everyone, and that's OK. And believe me, game developers worth their salt completely recognize this.

Some players will focus on killing and there is a role for them as well. Someone dead on the way to your objective is someone not assaulting or defending it. In any case, going back to the main argument (downed state), if people find the downed state to detract from the satisfaction of killing, well, that's a valid point to discuss. The rebuttal can't be that killing doesn't matter, so the existence of a downed state (and whatever effect it has on your enjoyment of killing) is then irrelevant.

Personally, I generally dislike the downed state (so far) in PvP. I've played a good deal of PvP in GW2, but not enough to conclusively say it's truly a positive or negative addition to PvP either way just yet. However, so far, it's often been a nuisance more than anything else. You do get an additional sense of satisfaction when you get the stomp on someone, but I've had far more frustrating experiences with it instead. It also seems to often encourage poor play. One can attack from the battlements of a keep without regard for his or her safety as he is generally safe to go down up there. This allows for cases where unchecked aggression is rewarded.

Additionally, ranged characters have to exercise poor positioning in order to go in to even secure a kill (there should be a ranged 'Finish Him!' with a longer/interruptible channel time for those using ranged weapons, IMO).

Ultimately, it doesn't really feel good to me. Even so, I don't think the baby needs to go out with the bathwater. I feel additions (such as the ranged finisher mentioned above) or other tweaks could be made to improve the function, at the very least. I'll reserve full judgment until I get more time with it. Given the overall awesomeness of GW2 in both PvP and PvE, I'm willing to give ArenaNet the benefit of the doubt on this one for now.  With that said, I think there could be a bit more tolerance for dissenting opinion in this thread.

Michael "MikeB" Bitton
Community Manager
Twitter: @eMikeB

  otinanai123

Novice Member

Joined: 7/18/10
Posts: 272

 
OP  7/27/12 1:58:56 PM#129
Originally posted by StrixMaxima
Originally posted by otinanai123
Originally posted by terrant

"Fun" may be the most relative term possible in a game. Fun is up to the individual.

 

OP doesn't find Downed state fun. Acceptable. That's his opinion. Cool..

 

I can't say I 100% understand the reasoning, but that's his choice.

Maybe you'll understand 1-2 months after launch ;) 

After reading all these pages since my question at page 1, I still cannot agree with your points, or acknowledge that they are a problem. I do accept that, under your subjective PoV, you don't like it. That's perfectly fine.

But your objections about zerging and teamplay are sorely undermined, and your definition of fun seems quite particular. Again, no problem in that.

After playing the game for a while, I was only frustrated by the Downed system when the Thief blink cooldown was screwy. Other than that, it rarely saved me from a sticky situation, but I could take advantage of it when my oppontents were not very zealous about finishing me off. Which sounds perfectly fine.

Let me give you an example. I was playing the newest map (foefire) and 2 players were in our base trying to kill our lord. I decided to try a 1v2. I killed one but of course i couldn't finish him since I had to kill him again (while both of them were dpsing/ccing me). I tried it 2 more times both with the same result: killed 1, died seconds later, the downed self-rezzes from my death.

If there was no downed state I would be able to kill one, kite the other to regain hp and (probably) kill him in a 1v1(which is one of those awesome moments only PvP can give you but sadly GW2 won't). 

  Purgatus

Novice Member

Joined: 4/22/12
Posts: 347

7/27/12 2:00:37 PM#130
Originally posted by otinanai123
*snip*

Ok but you'd still like it (since you're a PvPer and have PvPed for years in games without a downed mechanic) The difference for you is small but for many of us it's gamebreaking.

First off:

1) Yes I like it.

2) Once again, the fact that other games don't have a downed state is irrelivant. Combat in GW2 is quite different. It may have beeen fantastic in other games, but the point is its an integral part of THIS game.

3) Who comprises the us? Clearly the majority of posters favor the downed mechanic. To us it works quite well.

  Anthur

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/05/10
Posts: 614

7/27/12 2:03:13 PM#131

Currently it's close 2:1 for those who like downed state.

Let's assume it gets removed. So the mayjority looses on a feature they like.

What do those loose who don't like it if it stays ? Actually nothing. You didn't kill anyone when you downed him. In GW2 you first have to beat him in downed state. There is no " I need to kill him twice". So kill him correct and you get just what you want. Your kill. You can finish people from distance with damage btw.

This looks more like the usual vocal minority which would like to change a game their way. Unfortunately they get what they want many times.

  ruonim

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/25/09
Posts: 253

7/27/12 2:04:44 PM#132

You dont need to do finish him in order to kill someone. You can still fire at him from distance, making hp bar go much faster.

  BadSpock

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/21/04
Posts: 7677

Logic be damned!

7/27/12 2:05:41 PM#133

The frustrations downed state can cause < joy and satisfaction to take someone down and know they are DESPERATELY jamming their keys trying to rally while you are winding up the finisher...

 

Now Playing: D3:RoS, Watch Dogs
Looking Towards: Destiny

  Purgatus

Novice Member

Joined: 4/22/12
Posts: 347

7/27/12 2:06:11 PM#134
Originally posted by MikeB
*snip*

I feel that the point you are missing is this:

If I dont kill you, and instead push you away for awhile, thats still a win for me. I still come out ahead. I come out ahead if I kill you as well, but only insofar as it relates to my goal of controling space. That is the primary purpose.

And I disagree that it encourages aggressive play (bum rushing enemies will just get you killed), only co-ordinated aggresive play (which is quite a different beast)

To each thier own.

  sk8chalif

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/18/10
Posts: 591

7/27/12 2:09:16 PM#135
Originally posted by Kuinn
Originally posted by BadSpock

People who do NOT like the downed mechanic all say the same things.

They seem to be byproducts of the WoW generation of PvP - it's all about speed, "blowing somebody up" in a couple of seconds, and grinding kills trying to "have the best kill/death ratio" for bragging so that they can grind points to buy new / better gear so that they can "blow somebody up" in a GCD or two and earn more points and have a bigger ePeen with better K/D ratio's..

 

 

Nope, has nothing to do with this. I just simply dont like the whole event around simply killing someone. I think this mechanic would be just as awesome in a shooter, where everytime after you shot someone down you would have to walk to them and put a bullet through their head with your sidearm or they could revive after a while. I just dont like it, it has nothing to do with other games that I have played.

you dont kill him 2 time lol, You fight him until u put him to his knee and then finish him up. best thing ever,i love it pvp or pve,

 


~The only opinion that matters is your own.Everything else is just advice,~

  BadSpock

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/21/04
Posts: 7677

Logic be damned!

7/27/12 2:09:57 PM#136
Originally posted by ruonim

You dont need to do finish him in order to kill someone. You can still fire at him from distance, making hp bar go much faster.

Exactly. At range, just count to 8? I think it is, know that they are going to be pressing their "4" key to heal (cause it doesn't become active till I think 8 seconds after they go down) and then use an interupt... throw on a DOT or something, watch them cry and die horribly from a distance.

Downed state is just "new" people don't quite grasp it yet, grasp how to stop it, how to beat it, how to win with it, etc.

 

Now Playing: D3:RoS, Watch Dogs
Looking Towards: Destiny

  Derpybird

Novice Member

Joined: 4/02/12
Posts: 1006

7/27/12 2:26:27 PM#137
Originally posted by MikeB
Originally posted by Derpybird
Originally posted by otinanai123

PvP should be both about winning and "the kill".

In your opinion.

PvP in GW2 is about teamwork and resource control, not about racking up kills.

It's fine if you don't like this approach to PvP, but there it is.

If you want to rack up kills and see who did the most DPS at the end of a match you have other choices.

I've never really understood why people find these two desires to be mutually exclusive. Part of capturing or holding objectives often involves kills. Either directly or peripherally. And kills are also given credit for in sPvP (10 points per kill, IIRC). So yes, killing on its own does matter. Even if points were not awarded for killing, seeking a sense of satisfaction from said kills shouldn't be alien or discouraged, even in a team setting. In objective-oriented team games there are often roles, and sometimes these roles even explicitly involve killing. The spy sapping the sentry farms and killing all the engineers gives way for the team to make a push, to use TF2 as an example. The enemy spy can also defang a push by taking out the medic healing the heavy (or any other high damage threat).

I do not see killing someone in PvP and territory/resource control as mutually exclusive.

The question for me is the difference, as was highlighted earlier, between a TF2 approach to combat and a generic deathmatch approach to combat.

In TF2, I love playing an engineer and trying to find really strategic points of control, but that doesn't mean that I don't like blasting someone in the face with a shotgun, especially the spies trying to sap my turrets. But the point of what I'm doing in that particular role is controlling access to a resource.

Killing another player takes them out of combat for a period of time and it is completely legitimate. It is why people call out focus target in sPvP.

But again, is the goal to control resources as a team or take out other players? Teams that run around just going for kills will, for the most part, lose.

Now does the downed stated enhance or detract from that experience? I guess it depends on your perspective, but I hear some people saying they don't like it because it's new, or has not been implemented in any other PvP setting, or it detracts from their experience of "fun" though that is really subjective. So I personally can appreciate that someone might not find it fun and the forums are obviously a great place to express that, though I'm not sure that disagreeing with their opinion means that one is not tolerant of it.

With regards to ranged finishers, I see the point, but I have mixed feelings and agree that it would have to have a different implementation than melee finishers.

"Loading screens" are not "instances".
Your personal efforts to troll any game will not, in fact, impact the success or failure of said game.

  StrixMaxima

Novice Member

Joined: 2/07/09
Posts: 890

7/27/12 2:27:25 PM#138
Originally posted by otinanai123

Let me give you an example. I was playing the newest map (foefire) and 2 players were in our base trying to kill our lord. I decided to try a 1v2. I killed one but of course i couldn't finish him since I had to kill him again (while both of them were dpsing/ccing me). I tried it 2 more times both with the same result: killed 1, died seconds later, the downed self-rezzes from my death.

If there was no downed state I would be able to kill one, kite the other to regain hp and (probably) kill him in a 1v1(which is one of those awesome moments only PvP can give you but sadly GW2 won't). 

I see. Interesting that you mentioned an example like that. Something similar happened with me in the Forest of Nifhel map during the second BWE:

I saw a Warrior and an Elementalist banging the Svanir boss. After assessing the situation a bit, I waited the to blow their longest cooldowns and jumped in (playing a Mesmer). Since theElementalist was playing mostly with Daggers, I stacked Confusion on her, and managed to down her with a well-placed Shatter that also damaged the Warrior.

After that, I broke LoS with her, knowing that I wouldn't be able to finish her with the Warrior wailing on me. So I decided to damage the Warrior as much as possible, but only downing him when the Elementalist got back up, with less HP. Doing that, I could get both of them downed in a short space of time, and I managed to finish both before their team showed up and killed me.

PVP is inherently disappointment management. Sometimes you will try things that won't work out. But sometimes, you'll be able to do some amazing things. The Downed state allowed me to do an amazing, very calculated fight. I wouldn't change this system for nothing else in the market right now.

  Gaia_Hunter

Elite Member

Joined: 5/04/12
Posts: 2550

7/27/12 2:31:08 PM#139

What if there was no down state, the damage was the same, but players had 33% more health?

It would take the same amount of time, but since the guy wasn't with his bum on the floor and didn't have different skills no one would complain.

The game is balanced with down state in mind. If there was no down state, spike kills would be prevented by lower damage and higher health.

This increase tense moments, especially for esports - it is alot easier to see someone is almost death when he is downed isntead of having 10% health.

Also takes advantage of the bundle system im GW2.

It is just different.

Currently playing: GW2
Cooperative (semi cooperative)board games you should check: Pandemic, Sentinels of the Multiverse, Eldritch Horror, Descent 2.0,Level 7 Omega Protocol, Last Night on Earth

  Brorz

Novice Member

Joined: 11/06/08
Posts: 9

7/27/12 2:42:43 PM#140
Originally posted by joocheese
Originally posted by otinanai123

Well?

Definitely with the downed mechanic. If I'm not mistaken, the downed mechanic is a first in an mmo; this mechanic is one of the new things that GW2 has brough to the mmo genre. I think it provides the downed player an opportunity to rally and continue fighting and it also provides the attacker with a unique "finishing move". Btw, more often than not, players will not rally, on average; I disagree with people who say the advantage is for the downed player. When a player is "downed", the advantage is still to the attacker, who still has to successfully "finish" the player.

P.S. Even after a downed player has been "finished" by an enemy attacker, other players can come and rez the defeated player; it just takes longer than if the player was just downed. In my opinion, this is one of the best wvw/spvp mechanic that GW2 has introduced.

 

I totally agree! the downed state is a nice novelty

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