A simple party size increase should help. In WoW a party has 5 people. That means for each 1 tank and 1 healer, 3 people can be damage dealers. If you increase the party size to 6, you cut the waiting time for damage dealers by 25% as there can now be 4 of them per 1 tank and 1 healer.

Just one possible method of alleviating the issue.

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Originally posted by rungard ok we know there problems with the trinity. 1) it no longer exists in its original form (tank/heal/cc) and is more commonly known as tank/heal/dps 2) the tank/heal/dps is plagued with the problem where everyone and their mother end up wanting to be dps, resultin in a shortage of tanks an healers. so how to resolve the problem?  Please post your ideas here. post your whines, complaints and general asshattery in the other demise of the trinity thread.   heres my stab at it. There will be great disagreement but i believe that dps as a role must be eliminated. It is wrong to offload the responsibility of the group to two players so everyone else can play lazymode. Im genralizing but there should be equal responsibility of all roles, and this will ensure that enough players choose the roles of healer, tank and crowd controller. Everyone should be expected to perform offensive duty. This is no issue for tanks and crowd controllers but is an issue for healers. No one should expect that they only have to do damage.  I believe healing abilities should be scaled back alot ( not eliminated) but in its place healers would receive an wider array of debuffing and damage prevention mechanisms. I would reduce the group size to three. I just believe three is the most balanced number for a really fun experience. From what ive read about lorto 3 mans  and my many years of playin mmo's  i believe this is an easy way to reinvigorate grouping and the trinity itself. The 3 man specifically reduced the overall damage output of mobs which reduced the specialist requirement of players an healing loads. Crowd control would be greatly expanded but would have "mezz" type controls removed. There would be many more partial effects, but no effect would be a complete lockdown. Tanking would lose its taunt abilities and this would be replaced with different kinds of gameplay. for intance one class could be a gravity knight, who could use magic to tether themselves to a mob..or a battlemage would would specialize in forcefields to funnel enemies into them. A warrior might lasso a mob etc.  Mobs would still try to kill who they wanted, but the new method would allow brief interventions to this. lastly class balance would be modified such that every class  is either ranked  1 , 2, or 3 for tanking, healing, and crowd control. This mean that all players could perform all roles potentially, and certainly in a pinch. So if your a primarily tank character  say a paladin your a tank 1, heal 2, crowd conrol 3, where say a gravity knight would be tank 1, crowd control 2, healing 3. ...all players would be expected to dps. whats your idea?

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Honestly i dislike the trinity system since day one when Soe "dream team" described it to the public. I personally know some ways to fix it, i don't know if those fixes can be coded properly (its so much easier to speak than doing), they probably can be coded, but conceptually i know how to fix it at least. I won't tell tough unless i have sympathy with you, i'll rather have the system die, the core idea is shitty as hell, and the intention behind were plain bad to begin with, but guys like you don't know the core idea, don't give a fuck about it, and will probably ignore it if someone tell them (like Smedley and Co described it back then).

And 2 points i want to add. OP you describe a non trinity system and a system that was already made in the first mmo UO, go check it, it's old as a dinosaur, but well it is there and exactly how you envision it even thought it's... well... know as a non trinity system! but i guess this is just wording and definition is it? :p.

ANd second trinity system evolved quiet a lot during a period of mmo history around 2k, the number of roles and variant, of the system went crazy at one point, ye i know it's hard to believe, but that is the flat out true. You had pullers, cc class, aoe tank/off tank, you had ranged and aoe parties rooming dungeons (not much but you did had some at one point)... I don't know why but something tell me first that the trinity was the lazy fat ass coding mechanism and it's probably why it is so popular, and not because guys like you think it's so awesome, well both probably make it the way it is now. And second it never really evolved, why? ask yourself.

what would be more interesting gameplay to me would be to balance the classes out so that they could 'bounce' aggro between themselves, heal themselves and each other, and dps.

think about 3 kids taunting a dog. no, don't that's a horrid image. i spose what i'm saying is that in pnp DnD there were really no tanks, monsters just attacked you. your companions helped you, you helped them, everyone pitched in and everyone got some action and felt useful at the same time.

speaking of which, i think it's going to be the thing tanks and healers miss in the new paradigm: feeling useful.

speaking more directly to the 3 roles, perhaps, instead of thinking of the roles, think of the abilities, then attempt to reassign them.

ex. what if everytime the tank blocked the damage rolled off healed the party?

or what if a % of the damage a dps did was converted into healing? (bloodmages in Vanguard for instance.) and i dont mean shadow priests. dont just give the healer role damage abilities, give the dps some group support abilities as well.

Originally posted by Quirhid

I agree with Loktofeit and XAPGames, taunting is the single most absurd thing in trinity combat. It is unnatural. Tanking does not exist in PvP. Because of this there's a clear difference between PvE builds and PvP builds where PvP builds usually have more controlling abilities just because there is no tank. If you can bring PvE and PvP combat closer together you'd have easier time to balance both and you would have fewer instances where PvP builds hunt hapless PvE builds.

Mobs need to attack weak or threatening targets. They need to use disabling effects to force players adapt. They need to dodge and evade AOE attacks, flee and call for help.

Also bodyblocking, blocking projectiles and friendly fire would all make an refreshing change of pace.

Was that way in EQ1 a dozen years ago. Player sitting and resting? BAM! Instant aggro on a pull. Player below 10% health and often no amount of taunting would pull it off.

Regarding PvE/PvP dichotomy, mobs were given huge HP advantages to compensate for poor AI's. This led to players having to deal god's own lot of damage for the mob to even notice it. Of course if you now turn and use this anti-NPC skill on players they drop in droves. Making the mobs into player equivilants is the answer, the same skills working equally PvE or PvP and all is right with the world. I am sick of games where they have to add PvP exclusive stats, skills and limitations to make it balance. Give me a game where a L30 Player and a L30 Mob have a real 50:50 chance against each other and I will be happy.

Originally posted by Quirhid

I agree with Loktofeit and XAPGames, taunting is the single most absurd thing in trinity combat. It is unnatural. Tanking does not exist in PvP. Because of this there's a clear difference between PvE builds and PvP builds where PvP builds usually have more controlling abilities just because there is no tank. If you can bring PvE and PvP combat closer together you'd have easier time to balance both and you would have fewer instances where PvP builds hunt hapless PvE builds.

Mobs need to attack weak or threatening targets. They need to use disabling effects to force players adapt. They need to dodge and evade AOE attacks, flee and call for help.

Also bodyblocking, blocking projectiles and friendly fire would all make an refreshing change of pace.

Taunting was removed in GW1 from 2005. It didn't prevent having a frontline controlclass, it just worked different. Taunting is a absurd form of controll.

Originally posted by jondifool

Originally posted by Quirhid

I agree with Loktofeit and XAPGames, taunting is the single most absurd thing in trinity combat. It is unnatural. Tanking does not exist in PvP. Because of this there's a clear difference between PvE builds and PvP builds where PvP builds usually have more controlling abilities just because there is no tank. If you can bring PvE and PvP combat closer together you'd have easier time to balance both and you would have fewer instances where PvP builds hunt hapless PvE builds.

Mobs need to attack weak or threatening targets. They need to use disabling effects to force players adapt. They need to dodge and evade AOE attacks, flee and call for help.

Also bodyblocking, blocking projectiles and friendly fire would all make an refreshing change of pace.

Taunting was removed in GW1 from 2005. It didn't prevent having a frontline controlclass, it just worked different. Taunting is a absurd form of controll.

Indeed. The key is they were not tanking. Some mobs would cripple or blind the warrior and move on to the casters to do damage. In PvP, we used to head to engagements in a formation with a front line of hard targets (such as warriors), backline of soft targets (mesmers, eles) with support and atleast one monk in the midline so that the midline had everyone in their casting range at all times. It was like playing soccer at times: 3-3-2, 2-4-2, attack from right, jab from the middle, spread out to avoid spreading disease and avoid AOE, push their backline kill their frontline (warriors often over-extended themselves and you could force someone's backline to retreat). Really fun. Great memories from GW1...

Now when was the last time you headed into battle in a formation?

Just go back to tank/healer/cc or whatever.

To be honest, I really do not care, as long as I can play a tank.  No other role interests me.

Originally posted by Axxar

A simple party size increase should help. In WoW a party has 5 people. That means for each 1 tank and 1 healer, 3 people can be damage dealers. If you increase the party size to 6, you cut the waiting time for damage dealers by 25% as there can now be 4 of them per 1 tank and 1 healer.

Just one possible method of alleviating the issue.

That sounds good but EQ2 have 6 players party and that is no real difference at all when you play. 

Nah, trinity combats largest misstake is that it makes combat less fun and dynamic.

Here is my suggestion instead:

1. Physical combat (warrior, ranger, knight).

2. Rogue (thief, bard).

3. Magic (sorceress, cleric).

Both rogues and mages have none combat features as well as combat stuff. A rogue uses skills to find and disarm traps, to find hidden doors and open locks. They will do loads of damage but most use positioning and wits to get that damage in. Mages heals, CC and have AoE, and they also can dispel wards and other magical traps. Both these roles are however easy to kill and mobs will try to take them out.

Physical damage classes will do most damage on a single target at the time, take plenty of damage and use positioning to protect the weaker roles.

My idea would be less focus on needed class roles in raids and bosses, more focus on the boss and environmental mechanics. There's a few games out or coming out that are really uitizing this, so I guess it's less my idea, and more somebody's good idea that I strongly agree with.

seriously, why reconstruct em?

we are trying to get rid of them atm ^^

NO  RECONSTRUCT HERE! move along!

Originally posted by angzt

seriously, why reconstruct em?

we are trying to get rid of them atm ^^

NO  RECONSTRUCT HERE! move along!

With the trinity most people mean "group dynamics" and that is something most multiplayer games needs. Heck, even many FPS games have group dynamics.

That the group needs 3 roles which is tank, spank and heal is a very different idea that I think needs to go, it have been done too much by now.

I really liked the multiclassing that GW1 allowed (even tho it was ditched in GW2)

In GW1, I was even able to support heal as an assassin with 2nd part monk

GW1 players had a primary class and choose any secondary class

- player could freely change this secondary class at any town

RIFT did something similar with multiclassing w their soul trees

I prefer games having a healing role (as long as its fun for the healer)

Where in life have you ever seen something in any sort of combat working like an MMO tank?

Nowhere, combat is more fluid than that.  The whole tank concept is primitive and it sucks. 

"HEY!  Hey! Hey guys, I got a real great idea lets beat on this thing we can't kill and ignore those guys who are killing us."

"Yeah, great idea.  This should work great.  I mean if we just ignored him and went around him then he might kill us extremely slowly with his terrible damage and we wouldn't want that."

Seriously this is the mechanics you want?  Tanking is crap.

Originally posted by gestalt11

Where in life have you ever seen something in any sort of combat working like an MMO tank?

 

Nowhere, combat is more fluid than that.  The whole tank concept is primitive and it sucks. 

 

"HEY!  Hey! Hey guys, I got a real great idea lets beat on this thing we can't kill and ignore those guys who are killing us."

"Yeah, great idea.  This should work great.  I mean if we just ignored him and went around him then he might kill us extremely slowly with his terrible damage and we wouldn't want that."

 

Seriously this is the mechanics you want?  Tanking is crap.

I think tanking and the aggro system was designed that way due to developers not having the technology to make NPC have AI that worked well. Today the techology is different and you can do far more now than you ever could back then. The idea that the tank and healer still exists today reflects the "no risk" approach from developers and a lack of interest in something new from the community.

Originally posted by pointchiz

I think tanking and the aggro system was designed that way due to developers not having the technology to make NPC have AI that worked well. Today the techology is different and you can do far more now than you ever could back then. The idea that the tank and healer still exists today reflects the "no risk" approach from developers and a lack of interest in something new from the community.

depends when you think the technology allowed for more options

I think mobs having a hate list has never changed

7 years ago, ANET launched Guild Wars with the "no tank" mechanic

The problem with the trinity is Heals and Tanks

GW2 already took the first step like Tera in fixing the Trinity.

Here is to take it a step farther!

1) Every one can be tanks, its all based on Armor

2) Armor increases weight, Increase the time it takes for Mana to regen, Increases stamina usage for dodges.

3) Heals have usage counts, that must be restocked before fights

4) No magic users, you can have pyrotechnics and cryotechnics that have extra slots for magic spells.

5) No Taunts

6) Everyone else can only carry 1 slot of magic spell, so its a give or take on Heals or AOE for their slot. Because AOE only available as slottable consumable spells.

Because everyone can wear heavy armor increasing their damage absorption you are making people make choices on an Give and Take situation. Same with the Heals, its either Heals or AOE and its items you need to purchase so its costly to constantly relying on people to keep throwing heals at you.

When you make something easy tactical, an normal encounter becomes complex and difficult because of the choices you need to make and you allow everyone to make different choices that make every encounter different and unique.

     The holy trinity was used because it's simple.. and the simpler you keep it, the easier it is for PvP esporting like arena play..  If we are talking about PvE.. I say increase size of groups to a max of 6 like EQ1 was.. Get rid of AOE taught/dps'ing.. That way of playing is so old and borning..  Bring back pulling, CC'ing and hybrids..  But to make PvE roles fun to play again, you have to ignore the effect it has on small group PvP like arenas or battle grounds..  If you keep PvP as world vs world similar to GW2, you might be able to get away with massive role changes without the cry of PvP balance issues..  50 v 50 PvP is easier to balance then one on one class balancing..

Originally posted by pointchiz

I think tanking and the aggro system was designed that way due to developers not having the technology to make NPC have AI that worked well. Today the techology is different and you can do far more now than you ever could back then. The idea that the tank and healer still exists today reflects the "no risk" approach from developers and a lack of interest in something new from the community.

Nah, it was more due to economical reasons.

Meridian 59 was the first MMO using it and they just had a handful people working on it, it was the easiest solution to the problem of mob AI and group dynamics.

It is kinda a mystery that noone made a better system in 16 years, or at least that 99% of all MMOs still uses the same old system. It was brilliant for M59 and worked fine enough in EQ but it should have been retired for something more dynamic after that.

After all are you fighting a lot of the time while you play a MMO so those mechanics needs as much work as anything else in the game including graphics.

The core problem with the trinity is the dps, who really wants to be the guy that can't fight their way out of a wet paper bag.  My idea is based on a skill based character  progression and creates more of a front line/rear line set up.  Front line can take hits and the rear line is more versatile.

First remove DPS out of the equation, everyone can do damage pretty equalily. 

A characters offense/defense ability would be a pretty straight forward formula.  Each skill you pick and level up contributes to one or both formulas. 

Create a character with enough defense point via skills, armor, magic and you have a character that can take more hits.  Create a character that is more versatile then you better learn how to kite or be able to out heal the damage.

If you give a damage bonus to position (flanking) ie. mob X runs past your front line people they get a damage bonus for back attacks.  They will quickly regan agro.

CC and healing is nothing really new.  I think there needs to be more and different types of abilities.