This reads less like a well thought out comment on the genre and more like 'No one's making games with all the features I like, so therefor the whole genre is garbage'.

I don't know what MMOs you thought you were playing when the genre was born, but they were 100% combat oriented. Don't tell me games like Meridian, Ultima, and EQ weren't focused around combat, lmfao. If anything, we have more variety now, than we ever had when the genre started. While combat oriented games are still the majority, we also have things like second life, which are not focused around combat.

Esport is the name of PvP? Theres one game that has that in this genre. ONE. And that is GW2. So because this one game wants that as a feature, the whole genre is somehow screwed?

And socialization has become automated? You may have to explain that one.

Honestly, I get the whole nostalgia of past games, but I think a lot of people would be surprised if they actually went back and played some of these old games.

It's time to face reality people.

Don't know what decade-old console games played anything remotely like TSW, TOR, GW2, or any other MMORPG.

Personally I'd love to see some non-combat-focused games, but to call the genre dead because games have focused on combat is pretty ridiculous.

I also think I might enjoy a player-content game, although I have a lot less confidence in that than a carefully-crafted world where every corner holds something interesting.  The massive empty rolling hills of the past were really terrible game worlds to explore.  Modern MMORPGs do this much better.

As for cash shops, that's completely optional except for the rare MMORPG which really borks their cash shop by making it pay2win (having stuck with mostly mainstream MMOs I have literally never seen pay2win items in the F2P games I've tried.)

As for PVP, whether you call it esports or not, skill-centric PVP is better PVP because it's pure PVP.  There's a small, casual audience out there who wants world PVP (influenced by non-skill factors like zerging and progression.)  But most PVPers want a true competitive game, and world PVP fails to deliver that.

I gotta disagree with the OP. its not dead, it has hit a painful Speedbumb but with a genre still in its infancy it cant be dead. was FPS's dead for the years upon years that it was the same game repeated with new guns and pretty new targets to shoot. no it was just in a downturn, now that new ideas are being brought in its getting popular again (well it is beyond popular now) MMORPG industry will do the same thing.

TSW is a sure sign that it is starting to change, its a game that instead of saying "should i play a mage or a warrior" i say to myself "do i wanna do damage Via Zone, AoE consecutive hits, Heavy Single Target, or which ever new style i suddenly stumble upon"

and i know what people are going to say "The game can't be good because funcom made it" to which i will reply "sure, then keep complaining that there is nothing new. the games are clones of wow and that your quitting MMORPG's, i wont miss you"  

Originally posted by Roenick

The real issue is they are taking the MMO out of MMORPG games. No one talks to each other outside of a few instances or if you're lucky enough to be a in a tight knit guild in a game that still has guilds.

Talking to someone else on your computer used to be new and exciting.  It no longer is.  People went out of their way and out of their comfort zone to converse because it was required to accomplish anything.  MMO'ers have always been antisocial, we just couldn't get away with it 10 years ago.

All I know is I''m tired of doing quests. LAME quests. Singe player games have much better quests (and NPC, creatures AI) then mmorpg's. So in that respect the OP is right when he says mmorpgs are ten year old console games.

I don't get it. Why is is so hard to take advantage of the fact you can have 5000 people on one server and design a game for that which does not involve LAME quests and annoying raids.

I only know two games which are designed properly; Eve online and Planetside (dead now)

And neither of them are rpg's.

---

Originally posted by aesperus
This reads less like a well thought out comment on the genre and more like 'No one's making games with all the features I like, so therefor the whole genre is garbage'.

---

Its dead because there are no virtual worlds left. Except some crusty, outdated imports that have adopted cash shops and are on life support.

---

I don't know what MMOs you thought you were playing when the genre was born, but they were 100% combat oriented. Don't tell me games like Meridian, Ultima, and EQ weren't focused around combat, lmfao. If anything, we have more variety now, than we ever had when the genre started. While combat oriented games are still the majority, we also have things like second life, which are not focused around combat.

---

SL isnt a virtual world mmorpg. Its a sandbox with a cash for virtual items economy.
UO has more variety of gameplay than TOR, TSW, RIFT, and GW2 combined. Same with SWG. You are blind because you think combat variety = actual variety. Thats true if you're playing a fighting game, but when we're talking about virtual worlds its not. And stop whining about virtual worlds not being important anymore. That is THE BACKBONE of what an mmorpg should be. You make a world for players to exist in. That includes multiple ways to play beyond combat.

---

Esport is the name of PvP? Theres one game that has that in this genre. ONE. And that is GW2. So because this one game wants that as a feature, the whole genre is somehow screwed?

---

---

And socialization has become automated? You may have to explain that one.

---

---

Honestly, I get the whole nostalgia of past games, but I think a lot of people would be surprised if they actually went back and played some of these old games.

It's time to face reality people.

---

I'm looking at these games realistically and in comparison to the original mmorpgs. It seems you are the one going in with eyes wide shut.

Originally posted by thekid1

All I know is I''m tired of doing quests. LAME quests. Singe player games have much better quests (and NPC, creatures AI) then mmorpg's. So in that respect the OP is right when he says mmorpgs are ten year old console games.

I don't get it. Why is is so hard to take advantage of the fact you can have 5000 people on one server and design a game for that which does not involve LAME quests and annoying raids.

I only know two games which are designed properly; Eve online and Planetside (dead now)

And neither of them are rpg's.

There is a simple awnser to that. you dont like theme park games. its pretty obvious, The problem with having missions that have things like open world PVP is that it forces people who don't want it while they are leveling (the majority i assure you) to get randomly killed by somone as they finish fighting a mob, then in return be corpse camped until logging to boost someones Epeen.

My opinion is that if they changed PvP servers to that they had more quests for random killing of players, less people would complain. sadly when it comes to AI based quests you are somewhat limited in what you can do.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Dead?

The market is huge and may still be expanding.

Expanding in one direction, not diversifying or innovating.

Originally posted by Rayshe

I gotta disagree with the OP. its not dead, it has hit a painful Speedbumb but with a genre still in its infancy it cant be dead. was FPS's dead for the years upon years that it was the same game repeated with new guns and pretty new targets to shoot. no it was just in a downturn, now that new ideas are being brought in its getting popular again (well it is beyond popular now) MMORPG industry will do the same thing.

 

TSW is a sure sign that it is starting to change, its a game that instead of saying "should i play a mage or a warrior" i say to myself "do i wanna do damage Via Zone, AoE consecutive hits, Heavy Single Target, or which ever new style i suddenly stumble upon"

 

and i know what people are going to say "The game can't be good because funcom made it" to which i will reply "sure, then keep complaining that there is nothing new. the games are clones of wow and that your quitting MMORPG's, i wont miss you"  

WTH does the way you choose your skills have to do with MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER game design? Skyrim has that, Oblivion did, come on!

I don't play TSW because it is a single player game with other people around you. I want to be able to interact with other people. I want to hire them to help me explore a dangerous world, I want to track them down to collect the bounty on their head, I want to visit their shop, I want to make trade routes, I want people to look out for a certain item I need, I want specialized crafters, I want to play card games for gold with them, invite them to my castle, etc. etc. etc. All that PLUS a worthwile "end game". (which SWG was lacking) Could be pvp, could be constrcution (think Minecraft), could be power (EVE), could be capitalism (linked to real money) or ALL of that.

Originally posted by thekid1

Originally posted by Rayshe

I gotta disagree with the OP. its not dead, it has hit a painful Speedbumb but with a genre still in its infancy it cant be dead. was FPS's dead for the years upon years that it was the same game repeated with new guns and pretty new targets to shoot. no it was just in a downturn, now that new ideas are being brought in its getting popular again (well it is beyond popular now) MMORPG industry will do the same thing.

 

TSW is a sure sign that it is starting to change, its a game that instead of saying "should i play a mage or a warrior" i say to myself "do i wanna do damage Via Zone, AoE consecutive hits, Heavy Single Target, or which ever new style i suddenly stumble upon"

 

and i know what people are going to say "The game can't be good because funcom made it" to which i will reply "sure, then keep complaining that there is nothing new. the games are clones of wow and that your quitting MMORPG's, i wont miss you"  

WTH does the way you choose your skills have to do with MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER game design? Skyrim has that, Oblivion did, come on!

I don't play TSW because it is a single player game with other people around you. I want to be able to interact with other people. I want to hire them to help me explore a dangerous world, I want to track them down to collect the bounty on their head, I want to visit their shop, I want to make trade routes, I want people to look out for a certain item I need, I want specialized crafters, I want to play card games for gold with them, invite them to my castle, etc. etc. etc. All that PLUS a worthwile "end game". (which SWG was lacking) Could be pvp, could be constrcution (think Minecraft), could be power (EVE), could be capitalism (linked to real money) or ALL of that.

 

i already have a post directed at you, please read that before opening your mouth again.

Funny little fact ive played many Sandbox games, they actually have a good 40% failure rate. most of them either shine (eve is a great example), or then become a over glorified Deathmatch (the sad fate of Face of Mankind)

It would just be great to have something more to do in these modern MMOs.  EVE online, Runescape and one or two other old games have way more to do than just questing, a little crafting and some PVP. Just so tired of the same old, same old. 

Do some quests, level to max, regurgitate content, repeat till bored. ugggggghhhhhhhhhhh

Originally posted by Rayshe

Originally posted by thekid1

Originally posted by Rayshe

I gotta disagree with the OP. its not dead, it has hit a painful Speedbumb but with a genre still in its infancy it cant be dead. was FPS's dead for the years upon years that it was the same game repeated with new guns and pretty new targets to shoot. no it was just in a downturn, now that new ideas are being brought in its getting popular again (well it is beyond popular now) MMORPG industry will do the same thing.

 

TSW is a sure sign that it is starting to change, its a game that instead of saying "should i play a mage or a warrior" i say to myself "do i wanna do damage Via Zone, AoE consecutive hits, Heavy Single Target, or which ever new style i suddenly stumble upon"

 

and i know what people are going to say "The game can't be good because funcom made it" to which i will reply "sure, then keep complaining that there is nothing new. the games are clones of wow and that your quitting MMORPG's, i wont miss you"  

WTH does the way you choose your skills have to do with MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER game design? Skyrim has that, Oblivion did, come on!

I don't play TSW because it is a single player game with other people around you. I want to be able to interact with other people. I want to hire them to help me explore a dangerous world, I want to track them down to collect the bounty on their head, I want to visit their shop, I want to make trade routes, I want people to look out for a certain item I need, I want specialized crafters, I want to play card games for gold with them, invite them to my castle, etc. etc. etc. All that PLUS a worthwile "end game". (which SWG was lacking) Could be pvp, could be constrcution (think Minecraft), could be power (EVE), could be capitalism (linked to real money) or ALL of that.

 

i already have a post directed at you, please read that before opening your mouth again.

I read it. mobs, missions. You're still stuck in standard game mmorpg design. Why do we need mobs or missions?

I'm not killing mobs in single player rpg's, why in mmorpg's? Surely with 5000 people on one server there is no need for missions which involve NPC's?

The whole mmorpg genre is fucked up. I imagined so many things ten years ago and none of these things happened instead we went backwards and now are locked in a standard design. Like an FPS or RTS. MMO could be anything you want, jut design the game to take advantage of 5000 people (or 50.000!) on one server.

Another one of these threads?

The genre ain't dead -_- it's only changing towards a more rpg-esque nature. If I want to play "community" I'll stick with RL, thank you very much. If on the other hand I want to play a game with a community residing in it, I'll be glad to take an mmorpg.

100% combat oriented gameplay? Oh please have a word with GW2's crafting system, economy and minigames. Sure you can't be a musician in that game, but I ain't intrested in those things.

I play mmorpgs to do things I can't do in real life and being a violist is not one of those things I wish to do in my mmorpg. And having musicians or proffesional dancers in your world doesn't contribute to your so-called "community". It could be a benefactor, but not a necessary one...

Have you been sleeping? We are finally getting out of the WoW-clone era and things are finally changing (GW2 and TSW). Which might mean a new golden age for non WoW clone mmos, but all you can say is that the genre is dying?

Originally posted by thekid1

Originally posted by Rayshe

Originally posted by thekid1

Originally posted by Rayshe

I gotta disagree with the OP. its not dead, it has hit a painful Speedbumb but with a genre still in its infancy it cant be dead. was FPS's dead for the years upon years that it was the same game repeated with new guns and pretty new targets to shoot. no it was just in a downturn, now that new ideas are being brought in its getting popular again (well it is beyond popular now) MMORPG industry will do the same thing.

 

TSW is a sure sign that it is starting to change, its a game that instead of saying "should i play a mage or a warrior" i say to myself "do i wanna do damage Via Zone, AoE consecutive hits, Heavy Single Target, or which ever new style i suddenly stumble upon"

 

and i know what people are going to say "The game can't be good because funcom made it" to which i will reply "sure, then keep complaining that there is nothing new. the games are clones of wow and that your quitting MMORPG's, i wont miss you"  

WTH does the way you choose your skills have to do with MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER game design? Skyrim has that, Oblivion did, come on!

I don't play TSW because it is a single player game with other people around you. I want to be able to interact with other people. I want to hire them to help me explore a dangerous world, I want to track them down to collect the bounty on their head, I want to visit their shop, I want to make trade routes, I want people to look out for a certain item I need, I want specialized crafters, I want to play card games for gold with them, invite them to my castle, etc. etc. etc. All that PLUS a worthwile "end game". (which SWG was lacking) Could be pvp, could be constrcution (think Minecraft), could be power (EVE), could be capitalism (linked to real money) or ALL of that.

 

i already have a post directed at you, please read that before opening your mouth again.

I read it. mobs, missions. You're still stuck in standard game mmorpg design. Why do we need mobs or missions?

I'm not killing mobs in single player rpg's, why in mmorpg's? Surely with 5000 people on one server there is no need for missions which involve NPC's?

The whole mmorpg genre is fucked up. I imagined so many things ten years ago and none of these things happened instead we went backwards and now are locked in a standard design. Like an FPS or RTS. MMO could be anything you want, jut design the game to take advantage of 5000 people (or 50.000!) on one server.

Its not "fucked up" your basically saying that the entire MMORPG genre is bad because its not all sandbox. not everyone likes sandbox, personally from the sandbox i have played it took for too long to get into anything interesting and when i did finally get in the game went into a downturn because the casual Crowd hit it. i made this example in another thread but ill post it here because i feel it fits.

Think of it in literal terms, You and your friend are in a real sandbox building and digging. the casual gamer is the kid that walks in and boots everything you made because its fun. (not every casual gamer but you know what i mean) you normally can get rid of that one person, the sad part about it is that he comes back the next day with 7 times as meny people as you have. suddenly the game is no longer building its just kicking Sand in peoples faces.

This is why we have a lack of Sandbox games, they crumble because the wrong crowd turns Simcity into Grand Theft Auto.

Why cant you people accept reality already? The majoritry doesnt want a fricking simulation game and yes thats EXACTLY what you people are asking for.

Genres evolve through time, deal with it. What was a mmorpg 12 years ago is different to what it is now.

What mmorpg means now is exactly the same as the word.

They are massive

They are multiplayer

They are online

and they are role playing games.

If you people want second life set on the medieval times go make your own game.

As far as im concerned mmorpgs nowdays are great and millions agree with me.

lately i have been a bit dislolusioned with mmo's..i bought TSW and GW2 and i have to admit i like  TSW and GW2 but i cant be bothered to play the beta on gw2 or login on TSW..i seem to spend more time playing solo rpg's like the witcher 1 and 2,risen,dragon age 1 and 2.dont know how to put it..i,m bored to death of them atm.maybe just a phase i,m going through but i,m more than happy with the solo games.i,m not saying they are better but they seem more appealing..or i,m just too old now to play them.god know's.

Originally posted by Foomerang

100% combat oriented online games. Cash shops come standard. Purely developer driven content. Esport is the name of the game for pvp. Socialization has become automatized.

If you were to tell me ten years ago that this is what MMORPGS would be like, I would have never even bothered to get involved.

MMO versions of old console games from a decade ago. Thats what we have right now. The irony is that console games today are actually more open and diverse than these so called mmorpgs.

Its a shame. I have faith in indie devs, as always. But the AAA mmo devs have really led the genre astray as of late. I wonder if it will ever get back on track.

I am not sure I would go so far as dead but I think your point is valid.  The Genre has shifted to the mainstream market and the target audience now are box sales for  non-MMO players.  The end result is we have games targeted towards high eye candy flashy type of play that non MMO gamers want.  FPS combat, PVP base, no grind and simplistic mechanics. But these players are not the type wth the patience to play a MMO very long which is likely why they did not stick with MMOs in the past.  Esssentially we have box sales games and people jumping from game.  Websites like this help to make it worse by hyping up new games regardless of the quality and letting the fanboys run rampant with their wild claims.  The fanboys atack anyone that disagrees with their dream game calling them names and running them off the forums.  Bad games are released and a few months later the fanboys have moved on to hying their next game of the week.  The only ones that benefit here are the developers in box sales and websites like this with massive page hits.

The more traditional model games lose players every time one of these new gimmick games is released and then get some of those players back a few months later. The sad thing is these gimmick games not only take the non MMO players away but they hurt the traditional games as many people there will buy into the hype until they play a month or two.  It does a lot of damage to guilds and the health of these games.

Maybe the best thing is for more games to fail like ToR and maybe we will see more games directed at MMO veterans  who want to actually put time into a game rather than being given all a games rewards simply for knowing how to log in.  I doubt we will see the vocal FPS/PvP crowd that has emerged the last few years go away but if the money and the hype goes away maybe they will go away to.  Maybe the best thing is lower budgets and for MMOs to go back to being a niche genre.  With Tor's collapse and the possibiltiy of something similar with TESO it might become much harder for games to get that type of investment.

Regardless I liked your post and feel for you and for what has happened to this genre.

Originally posted by austriacus

Why cant you people accept reality already? The majoritry doesnt want a fricking simulation game and yes thats EXACTLY what you people are asking for.

Genres evolve through time, deal with it. What was a mmorpg 12 years ago is different to what it is now.

What mmorpg means now is exactly the same as the word.

They are massive

They are multiplayer

They are online

and they are role playing games.

If you people want second life set on the medieval times go make your own game.

As far as im concerned mmorpgs nowdays are great and millions agree with me.

sorry i have to disagree with you aswell. there is a very large sandbox following its just that our games get ruined by people who with dont understand them or simply dont care

Originally posted by Rayshe

Originally posted by thekid1

Originally posted by Rayshe

Originally posted by thekid1

Originally posted by Rayshe

I gotta disagree with the OP. its not dead, it has hit a painful Speedbumb but with a genre still in its infancy it cant be dead. was FPS's dead for the years upon years that it was the same game repeated with new guns and pretty new targets to shoot. no it was just in a downturn, now that new ideas are being brought in its getting popular again (well it is beyond popular now) MMORPG industry will do the same thing.

 

TSW is a sure sign that it is starting to change, its a game that instead of saying "should i play a mage or a warrior" i say to myself "do i wanna do damage Via Zone, AoE consecutive hits, Heavy Single Target, or which ever new style i suddenly stumble upon"

 

and i know what people are going to say "The game can't be good because funcom made it" to which i will reply "sure, then keep complaining that there is nothing new. the games are clones of wow and that your quitting MMORPG's, i wont miss you"  

WTH does the way you choose your skills have to do with MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER game design? Skyrim has that, Oblivion did, come on!

I don't play TSW because it is a single player game with other people around you. I want to be able to interact with other people. I want to hire them to help me explore a dangerous world, I want to track them down to collect the bounty on their head, I want to visit their shop, I want to make trade routes, I want people to look out for a certain item I need, I want specialized crafters, I want to play card games for gold with them, invite them to my castle, etc. etc. etc. All that PLUS a worthwile "end game". (which SWG was lacking) Could be pvp, could be constrcution (think Minecraft), could be power (EVE), could be capitalism (linked to real money) or ALL of that.

 

i already have a post directed at you, please read that before opening your mouth again.

I read it. mobs, missions. You're still stuck in standard game mmorpg design. Why do we need mobs or missions?

I'm not killing mobs in single player rpg's, why in mmorpg's? Surely with 5000 people on one server there is no need for missions which involve NPC's?

The whole mmorpg genre is fucked up. I imagined so many things ten years ago and none of these things happened instead we went backwards and now are locked in a standard design. Like an FPS or RTS. MMO could be anything you want, jut design the game to take advantage of 5000 people (or 50.000!) on one server.

Its not "fucked up" your basically saying that the entire MMORPG genre is bad because its not all sandbox.

Yes I am.

 

Think of it in literal terms, You and your friend are in a real sandbox building and digging. the casual gamer is the kid that walks in and boots everything you made because its fun. (not every casual gamer but you know what i mean) you normally can get rid of that one person, the sad part about it is that he comes back the next day with 7 times as meny people as you have. suddenly the game is no longer building its just kicking Sand in peoples faces.

Or they hire good game designers and programmers who make it so the kid can''t destroy your buildings.
I can think of several methods just of the top of my head, I'm sure you can as well.

- you acguire a piece of land, only you can build there.

- building is in a private instance (placement is not)

I bet if developers put the same effort they put in making these hundreds of quests (voice acting?!!) and all of these boundaries and systems which make sure players don't do stuff the developers don't want them to, they could make a HELL of a game.

You could call it a sandbox, I will call it a Massively Multiplayer game.

I'm done doing crappy quests with crappy NPC mobs.

The only response I can possible give to threads like these is I've recently been having some of the greatest times of my 9 year MMO career during the past 3 GW2 beta weekends.  And I know many more players can say the same about Rfit, SW:ToR and TSW among other games right now.  The genre is decidedly not dead.