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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Demise of the "Holy Trinity"

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197 posts found
  Maroxad

Novice Member

Joined: 3/20/12
Posts: 27

7/24/12 5:06:18 PM#141

The trinity exists because there is demand for the trinity and as long as there are people who wish for a game with a holy trinity they will keep existing.

Personally I hate the Holy Trinity with passion, but I am not going to say it can never work.  But if they fix the problems attributed to the Holy Trinity I wouldnt mind it so much, namely how every foe is magnetically attatched to the tank and there is no need for formations, oh and if you mess up, the healer can provide you with all your life back at a whim, assuming he has the resource (and resource management is dying it seems).

In these trinity based games, I played as a tank, and occationally healer. I never really felt like I was working as a team with the rest of the players. 

Some mmos naturally do things better than others, such as WoW does the healing role quite well, but I felt the tanking role was rather stale, just do your rotation to maintain the foes on you and pay heed to the gimmicks.

Like with any gaming genre, there is no right and wrong in mmorpgs. Some mmos benefit from the system, others suffer for it. It really dephends on how well it blends with everything else and how it is executed.

  Hrimnir

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/24/10
Posts: 1075

7/24/12 5:28:39 PM#142
Originally posted by Leviano

Maybe it's just me, but I don't know why everyone is happy about the demise of the holy trinity. I personally see it as a good thing, it gives me a sense of purpose and role in an MMO.

I know that a lot of people will disagree, what with the release of the second coming of christ (GW2). Tbh, i really think thats what has put me off GW2, i need to know that im needed and not just an interchangeable part of a machine.

 

So, what do you guys think? Pro-trinity or not?

 

 

/Levi

It has 100% to do with the fact that the MMORPG genre has been run over by a bunch of entitled console gamer soloer's.

The holy trinity is a great thing, hell i actually prefer the holy quadrity (sp?) that was present in EverQuest.  Where you need a tank, dps, a healer, and someone to handle crowd control.

These games started out being about 2 things. 1. Having a huge open world to explore and "live in", so to speak, and 2. To be massively multiplayer, by that meaning having more than 12 or 16 people in one area at a time. Literally having hundreds of people able to run around in the same area doing things independently of each other (don't mistake that statement to mean soloing).

Everquest and UO both acheived these goals.  They both catered to different styles of gamers as far as PVP vs PVE at its most basic level, and thats fine.

But now, everyone is about "Using up the content" and then moving on to their next fix.  They treat MMO's exactly as they do single player games.  I.e. you buy it, play through the content, then move on to something else.  The insulting part is the developers have tried to deliver this and still call these games MMOs.  It makes me sick.

People came to these games before because they werent single player games, because it wasnt about burning through the content.  Because it was about socializing, grouping with your buddies to go explore, or go find what creatures may live in the dark, damp forest and kill them.  Or to sit around in a town and sell your wares, or to sit around in a town and craft your wares. Or to get a crap ton of people together and take down that annoying white dragon thats been roaming around in the zone you've been playing in, etc etc etc.

I just can't fathom the reasoning behind why people enjoy the sytle of play they complain so loudly that they want in these and many forums.

You know, thats what games like Skyrim are for.  Why dont you guys go play that and leave our precious genre the hell alone.  No, instead you had to crap all over it and turn it into something it was never intended nor designed to be...

"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."

- Friedrich Nietzsche

  FelixMajor

Elite Member

Joined: 12/27/07
Posts: 525

7/24/12 5:35:18 PM#143

tbh, the trinity is still there.  It's just more dynamic and flexible.

 

For example in GW2, the gaurdian is still viewed as your tank/support and your elementalist/thief is viewed as dps, although the elementalist is somewhat of a powerhouse with defensive and support magic as well.

 

It's still there very much, you just won't be doing boring ass tank n spank shit where your tank runs in, aggros, healer heals tank, etc, etc.  

 

The gameplay is much more dynamic and fluid this way, more exciting.

Originally posted by Arskaaa
"when players learned tacticks in dungeon/raids, its bread".

  Agent_Joseph

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/11/06
Posts: 800

7/24/12 5:35:46 PM#144

without trinity mmorpg is bored,sterile...it is not rpg it is arcade shooter ,look STO there not egsist  trinity,bored fight where all playing as dps ,no team work,  nothing what can associate on team work ,  all can be done withouth  talking inside teams cuse trinity not egsist

 

 

only EVE is real MMO...but I am impressive with TSW

  pointchiz

Novice Member

Joined: 7/24/12
Posts: 77

7/25/12 11:43:52 AM#145
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by pointchiz

I am of the opinion that the health bar is your own responsibility. Babysitting someone elses health bar doesn't sound very innovative. Wouldn't it be more innovative to pull your friend away from a fireball about to hit his face? Or drop a portal next to him so that he can jump in to change his positioning. How about raising a slab of rock from the ground so that he can use it for cover? Create an energy shield at a target location that deflects projectiles. Send him flying up into the air over a wall to assault the keep.

I guess if things had to be innovative to be fun, this opinion might matter.  But I'm still playing TF2, which isn't necessarily a massive innovation over the "shoot people" gameplay of Wolf3D or Quake 1.  Yet it's fun because it's a good game design, and because polish and details matter a lot in regards to whether these activities are actually fun.

This ^^^

Innovation and fun are two different things. There are MANY old ideas in gaming are still fun with good new implementation and polish. Shooting things never get old .. otherwise shooters won't be popular for so many years.

 

What is it exactly that makes shooting games so much fun? I believe the player is interacting with a 3D world. You're given a toolbox and using it to escape from impossible odds, decimate anything in your path and find a way to overcome obstacles. What are you asking a healer to do? Playing a 2 dimensional user interface. 

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

7/25/12 12:30:37 PM#146
Originally posted by pointchiz

What is it exactly that makes shooting games so much fun? I believe the player is interacting with a 3D world. You're given a toolbox and using it to escape from impossible odds, decimate anything in your path and find a way to overcome obstacles. What are you asking a healer to do? Playing a 2 dimensional user interface. 

If that's really all it was, it wouldn't be that fun.  But there's movement, and boss mechanics, and even the "pulling teammates away from incoming harm" suggestion you yourself made (WOW priests).

In short, preventing health bars from reaching 0 is just as compelling as making health bars reach 0.  Being the reason the party lives or dies is fun. A healers' toolbox exerts a large influence over the battle (an influence DPS classes typically lack.)

  pointchiz

Novice Member

Joined: 7/24/12
Posts: 77

7/25/12 12:37:52 PM#147
Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by pointchiz

What is it exactly that makes shooting games so much fun? I believe the player is interacting with a 3D world. You're given a toolbox and using it to escape from impossible odds, decimate anything in your path and find a way to overcome obstacles. What are you asking a healer to do? Playing a 2 dimensional user interface. 

If that's really all it was, it wouldn't be that fun.  But there's movement, and boss mechanics, and even the "pulling teammates away from incoming harm" suggestion you yourself made (WOW priests).

In short, preventing health bars from reaching 0 is just as compelling as making health bars reach 0.  Being the reason the party lives or dies is fun, because it exerts a large influence over the battle (an influence DPS classes typically lack.)

Right. I think people would enjoy interacting with a 3D world instead of a 2D user interface. Future game design should make support roles that have the player's eyes on the action. Wether the role is reactive or proactive or a mix of both is fine. The health bar is an outdated system. Even FPS games don't use it anymore. It serves little to no purpose.

 

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19248

7/25/12 12:39:13 PM#148
Originally posted by pointchiz
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by pointchiz

I am of the opinion that the health bar is your own responsibility. Babysitting someone elses health bar doesn't sound very innovative. Wouldn't it be more innovative to pull your friend away from a fireball about to hit his face? Or drop a portal next to him so that he can jump in to change his positioning. How about raising a slab of rock from the ground so that he can use it for cover? Create an energy shield at a target location that deflects projectiles. Send him flying up into the air over a wall to assault the keep.

I guess if things had to be innovative to be fun, this opinion might matter.  But I'm still playing TF2, which isn't necessarily a massive innovation over the "shoot people" gameplay of Wolf3D or Quake 1.  Yet it's fun because it's a good game design, and because polish and details matter a lot in regards to whether these activities are actually fun.

This ^^^

Innovation and fun are two different things. There are MANY old ideas in gaming are still fun with good new implementation and polish. Shooting things never get old .. otherwise shooters won't be popular for so many years.

 

What is it exactly that makes shooting games so much fun? I believe the player is interacting with a 3D world. You're given a toolbox and using it to escape from impossible odds, decimate anything in your path and find a way to overcome obstacles. What are you asking a healer to do? Playing a 2 dimensional user interface. 

 

Healing is interacting with a 3d world, if the mechanics allow it. There is aoe healing with different spatial elements. Healing circle on the ground is different than an instant aoe heal center on the healer.
  pointchiz

Novice Member

Joined: 7/24/12
Posts: 77

7/25/12 12:49:07 PM#149
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by pointchiz
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by pointchiz

I am of the opinion that the health bar is your own responsibility. Babysitting someone elses health bar doesn't sound very innovative. Wouldn't it be more innovative to pull your friend away from a fireball about to hit his face? Or drop a portal next to him so that he can jump in to change his positioning. How about raising a slab of rock from the ground so that he can use it for cover? Create an energy shield at a target location that deflects projectiles. Send him flying up into the air over a wall to assault the keep.

I guess if things had to be innovative to be fun, this opinion might matter.  But I'm still playing TF2, which isn't necessarily a massive innovation over the "shoot people" gameplay of Wolf3D or Quake 1.  Yet it's fun because it's a good game design, and because polish and details matter a lot in regards to whether these activities are actually fun.

This ^^^

Innovation and fun are two different things. There are MANY old ideas in gaming are still fun with good new implementation and polish. Shooting things never get old .. otherwise shooters won't be popular for so many years.

 

What is it exactly that makes shooting games so much fun? I believe the player is interacting with a 3D world. You're given a toolbox and using it to escape from impossible odds, decimate anything in your path and find a way to overcome obstacles. What are you asking a healer to do? Playing a 2 dimensional user interface. 

 

Healing is interacting with a 3d world, if the mechanics allow it. There is aoe healing with different spatial elements. Healing circle on the ground is different than an instant aoe heal center on the healer.

There's only so much you can do with that idea. The reason is because you're limited to just refilling a health bar. There is no depth to this.

  Gaendric

Novice Member

Joined: 4/20/04
Posts: 279

7/25/12 1:09:47 PM#150

"There's only so much you can do with that idea. The reason is because you're limited to just refilling a health bar. There is no depth to this."

Certainly not the case in PvP. Everyone who played DAoC knows that having a skilled healer made all the difference in the world. And with skill I most certainly don't mean how good he was at watching healthbars go down and up.

What the trinity adds is structure, which can lead to more tactical gameplay. (I agree this is questionable in many PvE implementations though)

The downside of "no trinity" (or other structure) is that fights can become zergfests, everyone just runs in the middle and pewpews while keeping himself alive. Basically, the game must provide some other means to avoid this.

Some sort of structure is good,. Doesn't have to be "the trinity (tm)" ofcourse.

 

The mind projection fallacy is the assumption that our subjective judgments (or lack thereof) reflect intrinsic qualities of objects or reality in general.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19248

7/25/12 1:14:42 PM#151
Originally posted by Gaendric

The downside of "no trinity" (or other structure) is that fights can become zergfests, everyone just runs in the middle and pewpews while keeping himself alive. Basically, the game must provide some other means to avoid this.

 

That is not true. Look at D3. There are multiple play style. Kiting, using ability to tank/keep yourself alive .. a combo of the two. Use terraine to your advantage. All those can be done in groups.

  rungard

Novice Member

Joined: 7/25/03
Posts: 1037

The Sandbox Foundation does not exist!

7/25/12 1:37:21 PM#152

i wonder what would happen if they simply changed the trinity to:

tank

debuff

crowd control

and only allowed healing after combat. Arguably debuffs and healing achieve the same thing, but one is an agressive version and the other a defensive.

  laserit

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/24/10
Posts: 1376

Confusius say: Man who go to bed with itchy bum wake up with stinky finger

7/25/12 1:47:01 PM#153

The Trinity can go the way of the Dodo....

And in 10-15yrs from now someone will bring it back and it will be touted as an innovation.

Personaly I see nothing wrong with the trinity. Some like to play the big strong tank, some the stealthy rogue some the cleric and some the wizard.

 Maybe it's the way encounter's have been developed that has gotten stale.

Zenimax kicked my dog

  pointchiz

Novice Member

Joined: 7/24/12
Posts: 77

7/25/12 1:48:56 PM#154
Originally posted by Gaendric

"There's only so much you can do with that idea. The reason is because you're limited to just refilling a health bar. There is no depth to this."

Certainly not the case in PvP. Everyone who played DAoC knows that having a skilled healer made all the difference in the world. And with skill I most certainly don't mean how good he was at watching healthbars go down and up.

What the trinity adds is structure, which can lead to more tactical gameplay. (I agree this is questionable in many PvE implementations though)

The downside of "no trinity" (or other structure) is that fights can become zergfests, everyone just runs in the middle and pewpews while keeping himself alive. Basically, the game must provide some other means to avoid this.

Some sort of structure is good,. Doesn't have to be "the trinity (tm)" ofcourse.

 

Healing in PVP is an abomination; in my opinion. It is impossible to balance. There is no skill to healing in PVP. Assuming the WoW model; the healer can heal anyone in a 40 yard radius and doesn't even have to face the target. This is probably because of the existance of the health bar. The DPS has to perform combo's, time the use of skills and coordinate strikes to bring the health bar to zero. But wait, here comes the healer with his eraser. He just erases everything that was done and all he had to do was click a box on the corner of his screen and then click a button on his keyboard. There is very little tactical gameplay in PVP when a healer is present. Assuming no healer, 1 good DPS could probably kill 2 or 3 lower skilled players. The second that you add a healer to this equation, everything goes to hell. I have seen and experienced the rampage that a Warrior + Healer combo could do. If the healer is left enchecked, those 2 alone could handle dozens of players. Then again this is just a matter of semantics since the healing per second can always be adjusted. In short, the healer is an error correction system. You don't need someone else to correct your mistakes. You don't need a dentist behind you picking up your teeth and surgically putting tham back into your jaw everytime you get punched in the face. Given the toolbox, you can avoid from getting punched in the face.

  Ambros123

Novice Member

Joined: 12/04/11
Posts: 891

7/25/12 1:49:14 PM#155
Originally posted by JosephJR

without trinity mmorpg is bored,sterile...it is not rpg it is arcade shooter ,look STO there not egsist  trinity,bored fight where all playing as dps ,no team work,  nothing what can associate on team work ,  all can be done withouth  talking inside teams cuse trinity not egsist

 

 

And how does "Wait 3 sec of the tank to grab aggro then on into rotations", "Don't stand in the fire", "Tank is downm it's a wipe guys" advocate any sort of complexity or teamwork?  Complexity will be entirely dependent on the fight design which if there is a trinity system or not is irrelevent as it will solely be dependent upon the devs and how they design the encounter.

Also the Holy Trinity doesn't require talking to you teammaters either FYI and doesn't advocate any more complexity ot teamworkness.

  Ambros123

Novice Member

Joined: 12/04/11
Posts: 891

7/25/12 1:53:01 PM#156
Originally posted by Gaendric

"There's only so much you can do with that idea. The reason is because you're limited to just refilling a health bar. There is no depth to this."

Certainly not the case in PvP. Everyone who played DAoC knows that having a skilled healer made all the difference in the world. And with skill I most certainly don't mean how good he was at watching healthbars go down and up.

What the trinity adds is structure, which can lead to more tactical gameplay. (I agree this is questionable in many PvE implementations though)

The downside of "no trinity" (or other structure) is that fights can become zergfests, everyone just runs in the middle and pewpews while keeping himself alive. Basically, the game must provide some other means to avoid this.

Some sort of structure is good,. Doesn't have to be "the trinity (tm)" ofcourse.

 

People are sterotyping that a no trinity system equates to zerg fest based off the DEs of GW2, show me where a dungeon is completed by a zerg fest tactic.

  Lucioon

Novice Member

Joined: 1/12/06
Posts: 840

7/25/12 2:10:20 PM#157

Without Taunt, the Game does not have a tank, regardless of whether or not you were able to get the mob to stick on you, but without a actual Taunt that other games uses that forces the mob to come back to you. There is no trinity.

When there is no full heal on any characters, there is no healer. You can heal as much as you want in GW2, but without the usual Super heal or constant heal that out heals the damages the mob gives out, there is no Trinity, and no healer.

What alot of people is trying to do is to go back to the trinity, sure you can build a very tough character that can sustain damages by a Boss Mob, yet without Taunts, that character is just a very tanky Character whom is very good at getting the attentions of the Boss Mob. Its not tanking, he is just a very good player that is able to work with his teammates and have the abilities to control the situation.

Having a water Elementalist who specializes in healing, is just a very good Elementalist whom is very good at managing their healing spells, with the help of the person that is controling the Boss Mob in avoiding damage that would put them in a bad situation.

In a normal Trinity Game play, The tank's job is to just keep spamming Taunts , while the Healer stay far enough and just keep spamming heals. There is no control of the Situation, because if the tank fails to taunt, the healer dies, if the healer dies, everyone dies. In GW2, when the water elemetalist dies, the tank can still keep going, just have to pay alittle more attention, and others can change their weapons to suit the situation.

Or when the tank dies, the healer can switch to the Earth Element and take over or someone else can take over with a switch of their weapon.

The game does not end when the person tanking dies, or the Water Elemetalist dies, but in Normal Trinity, its a automatic wipe.

Trinity needs to go for new ideas and new mechanics, smarter AI, more complex situations and more involved ideas to occur, we need to step out of the Trinity shadown and make the game more fun and exciting again.

Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.

  rpgalon

Novice Member

Joined: 3/04/11
Posts: 432

7/25/12 2:13:40 PM#158

the trinity is fine... It's how the encounters are designed that matters.

if the problem was the trinity, every encounter would be boring... but that is not the case, some encounters are boring and some are fun.

so the problem is the effort put into these encounters by the developers.

  Konfess

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/10/07
Posts: 695

7/25/12 2:25:33 PM#159

The trinity relies on multiplayer gaming and this interferes with the online single player goodness that opponents of the trinity enjoy so much.  You can basically say that any game that doesn’t support the trinity or promotes as a design goal or feature  a departure from the trinity, is in fact a single player game with an online component and nothing more. 

Pardon any spelling errors
Konfess your cyns and some maybe forgiven
Boy: Why can't I talk to Him?
Mom: We don't talk to Priests.

  Gaendric

Novice Member

Joined: 4/20/04
Posts: 279

7/25/12 2:27:49 PM#160

"Healing in PVP is an abomination; in my opinion. It is impossible to balance. There is no skill to healing in PVP. Assuming the WoW model; the healer can heal anyone in a 40 yard radius and doesn't even have to face the target. This is probably because of the existance of the health bar. The DPS has to perform combo's, time the use of skills and coordinate strikes to bring the health bar to zero."

This is not a problem with healing, it is a problem with WoW being as dumbed down as it gets and most games since then trying to copy it's success.

Games have had skillful and balanced healing long before WoW came along and catered to the lowest common denominator.

 

 

 

The mind projection fallacy is the assumption that our subjective judgments (or lack thereof) reflect intrinsic qualities of objects or reality in general.

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