Originally posted by Axehilt

I don't hate you.

I avoid the lousy games which let you gank.

And then because millions of others think like me (wanting PVE and/or True/Hardcore PVP, but not Gank/World/Casual PVP), those games are fading away.

^^ This

Not hating You. Did the same at points in my life. To kill time. 

I do however hate the lack of proper systems in games that allow such form of PvP. If you allow ganking from a mechanics standpoint it's also good to include some penalty for extensive abuse of it. Make a proper criminal system that puts the gankers in disadvantage, lock them out of towns, reward players additionally for dealing with them. 

AoC was one of games that tried it but same time they made it stupidly easy to get rid of the brand by just doing few minor quests. Thing is, most AAA developers don't have or will to really work on it, hence PvP is just slapped onto games without any reasoning and logic behind it. It exists purley because there is group of people that want it to be there. 

Originally posted by Vesavius

I am glad your lack of empathy allowed you to have fun. Great for you.

To me, personally, saying 'I'm a ganker' is just saying 'I have no skills and need to go for cheap assed kills all the time'.

So, I accept what you're saying in the spirit it is offered. You're a ganker.

 

Tbh though, to compare any PvP game based on classes/ gear/ lvls to a 'sport' is a bit retarded.

 

I don't hate you though. I don't hate anybody I have met in a game or on a forum, you are all far too generic and disposable to me for that.

Being a ganker means being a badass. That and you have no skillz :D

Originally posted by JuJutsu

Originally posted by Axehilt

I don't hate you.

I avoid the lousy games which let you gank.

And then because millions of others think like me (wanting PVE and/or True/Hardcore PVP, but not Gank/World/Casual PVP), those games are fading away.

^^ This

Was going to write something simular. 

...and the big problem the ganker then has is what to do in a game full of gankers. You can gank the other gankers but gankers just don't like to be ganked. So post on forums about the good old days when there were only a few MMOs and a single rule set so players had no choice.  Good times.

Originally posted by Axehilt

Originally posted by bunnyhopper

 

It is true PVP.  It's pure PVP, undiluted by non-skill factors.

Talking about the MMORPG genre doesn't prevent one from observing the realities of the world we live in.  MMORPGs aren't some magically isolated place where the human mind functions differently.

To imply world PVP is "fading" gives it too much credit.  It implies the style was popular at some point, which it's never really been.

Also let's not pretend world PVP is "teh hardcore", because by watering down the importance of skill and allowing players to win by zerging or out-gearing your opponent, you've actually created a more accessible, more casual-friendly style of PVP (which I still think is the major reason these types of PVP games have any legs at all.)  Instead of the game saying "Sorry you can only win if you're skilled,"  it says "No skill?  No problem!  Just grind longer and join a big organized guild!"

 

No purely competitve pvp is meant to be undiluted by non-skill factors. That doesn't suddenly create a "true" pvp. Several players could be engaged in economic pvp over several months, with lots of dynamic events occuring and impacting upon said pvp. It is still valid pvp nonetheless and no less "true" than any other form.

Sorry for expecting the conversation to focus on mmorpgs on mmorpg.com. You're right, lets talk about lamp shades.

The only time I recall mentioning the popularity of world pvp in this thread is to point out that other pvp forms are more popular. So not really sure where you are going with that particular argument, I would guess as far away from the original one which I pulled you up on as possible.

Did I say world pvp was "teh hardcore"? You know, me pointing out that by and large the majority are not playing arena games/pvp for hardcore pvp (which is what you originally seemed to suggest), is not rebutted by you trying to say world pvp is not hardcore. At all.

To OP: It sounds to me like you are playing a themepark where there arent that many consequences of dying thus taking away the sting of ganking. I suggest playing a full-pvp w/full-loot game, or even one with permadeath because if your going to do it you may as well increase the sting and risk associated with it.

Originally posted by bunnyhopper 

No purely competitve pvp is meant to be undiluted by non-skill factors. That doesn't suddenly create a "true" pvp. Several players could be engaged in economic pvp over several months, with lots of dynamic events occuring and impacting upon said pvp. It is still valid pvp nonetheless and no less "true" than any other form. 

Sorry for expecting the conversation to focus on mmorpgs on mmorpg.com. You're right, lets talk about lamp shades.

The only time I recall mentioning the popularity of world pvp in this thread is to point out that other pvp forms are more popular. So not really sure where you are going with that particular argument, I would guess as far away from the original one which I pulled you up on as possible. 

Did I say world pvp was "teh hardcore"? You know, me pointing out that by and large the majority are not playing arena games/pvp for hardcore pvp (which is what you originally seemed to suggest), is not rebutted by you trying to say world pvp is not hardcore. At all.

The two players engaging in economic PVP might indeed be engaging in true PVP (if they began on equal footing and no non-skill factors were involved)

They also might not be engaging in true PVP (if one player started much later than the other, and that factored into the result of their competition.)

As for MMORPGs on MMORPG.com, we were discussing PVP and I pointed out the bigger picture of PVP. The two are related in the context of which type of games humans find to be interesting competition.

As for hardcore, the facts are self-evident:

• Most PVP uses the ultimatum "Be skilled or lose," which makes it hardcore.
• In spite of being a more serious type of PVP with more losers (50% of all players) it's wildly more popular and spans many different genres of games, both video and real-world (fighting, RTS, FPS, all sports, TBS, etc)
• World PVP doesn't use that ultimatum.  Instead, there are non-skill options for you if you're not skilled enough.  Join the right guild and grind some gear and you're a winner!  Quite casual, because it's no longer pure competition.

Ganking is at it's most basic level, having fun at someone else's expense.  And I am guilty of the same sin when I laugh at all the people that have their FFA OWPvP games failing miserably. 

Back when i was playing wow, i used to "raid" falcon watch in hellfire daily on my 80, No one would live. everything red would die.

I used to get so much hate for doing this. people would bring hordes of 80's to come revenge their lobie alts which i had basicly farmed and through around like rag dolls.

Soon word would spread to my faction and there would be full blown war. (which is actually what the game is about but people forget that)

But what they failed to realise was i was creating player driven content. Hellfire was no longer barren with players it was flurishing with activity from the 80's and lowbies coming to see what was happening.

I think it creates a sense of danger in the world which helps the world seem "real" I dont have a problem with ganking or being ganked.

/End of my story

Originally posted by xDayx

To OP: It sounds to me like you are playing a themepark where there arent that many consequences of dying thus taking away the sting of ganking. I suggest playing a full-pvp w/full-loot game, or even one with permadeath because if your going to do it you may as well increase the sting and risk associated with it.

The OP specifically avoided stating what game they are playing.  It sounded to me like they are play, that herald of Douchebaggery and ganking, the sandbox EvE.  Whenever I read a thread promoting EvE or any Sandbox I feel like I’m watching an episode of “To Catch a Predator.”

The important thing I took away from the OP is that gankers are not fat slovenly losers.  I feel they are bullies, and my 45 years of experience bullies have always been Fit, Attractive, and Highly Sociable people who are evil to those that are weaker than them.  From my time playing Magic the Gathering I learned that the fat and slovenly are in fact the most caring of people.  Their concern for others leads them to avoid people for fear of offending us with their presence.  The attempt to battle their resultant loneliness with food.  Other just enjoy chips and crisps, and can’t be bothered to walk anywhere.

Gankers never tell stories of how they were leveling and got ganked and how they enjoyed that pvp experience.  eSports and instancing have nothing to do with sports.  The developers are trying to match up players based on gear scores and pvp ranking to make the match equal.  And this is what opponent of Instanced pvp and battlegrounds dislike, the equality of their opponents.  Both the OP and fans of open world pvp won't admit that they actively avoid evenly match confrontations in favor of weaker pray.  Ranking systems, battlegrounds and instancing prevent them access to their the unequipped, undeveloped, and inexperienced players.

My statements regarding EvE, sandboxes, and open world pvp are my honest opinion, and solely reflect my experience with them.

Originally posted by Nitth

Back when i was playing wow, i used to "raid" falcon watch in hellfire daily on my 80, No one would live. everything red would die.

I used to get so much hate for doing this. people would bring hordes of 80's to come revenge their lobie alts which i had basicly farmed and through around like rag dolls.

Soon word would spread to my faction and there would be full blown war.

But what they failed to realise was i was creating player driven content. Hellfire was no longer barren with players it was flurishing with activity from the 80's and lowbies coming to see what was happening.

I think it creates a sense of danger in the world which helps the world seem "real" I dont have a problem with ganking or being ganked.

/End of my story

 

Hellfire is that all? Heck to bad your toon was not on my server. owned Hala as a human rogue. back during TBC xpac days. And just like you we had a full blown out pvp going on poor hordies never new what hit them. Hala was mine for a long time to come until people gave up and stop trying to gank me from it. Oh and as you well know that was lvl 70 cap tyvm. And at lest I respected my fellow players enough not to gank them in Hellfire wow I mean taking on players at that lvl was childs play. You must of been a bord lvl 80 what did not run ICC much? Or let me guess you got ganked to many time in BG apperently so it seems.

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Originally posted by Isturi

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Originally posted by Nitth Back when i was playing wow, i used to "raid" falcon watch in hellfire daily on my 80, No one would live. everything red would die. I used to get so much hate for doing this. people would bring hordes of 80's to come revenge their lobie alts which i had basicly farmed and through around like rag dolls. Soon word would spread to my faction and there would be full blown war. But what they failed to realise was i was creating player driven content. Hellfire was no longer barren with players it was flurishing with activity from the 80's and lowbies coming to see what was happening. I think it creates a sense of danger in the world which helps the world seem "real" I dont have a problem with ganking or being ganked. /End of my story  

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Hellfire is that all? Heck to bad your toon was not on my server. owned Hala as a human rogue. back during TBC xpac days. And just like you we had a full blown out pvp going on poor hordies never new what hit them. Hala was mine for a long time to come until people gave up and stop trying to gank me from it. Oh and as you well know that was lvl 70 cap tyvm. And at lest I respected my fellow players enough not to gank them in Hellfire wow I mean taking on players at that lvl was childs play. You must of been a bord lvl 80 what did not run ICC much? Or let me guess you got ganked to many time in BG apperently so it seems.

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Nope, just wanted to disrupt the harmony. world of peacecraft was making me sick at the time.

I should point out that the tbc was the height of my fun in wow, I too did all the pvp, loved pvp farming primals too. it just made me sad that it came to an end and eventually there was no pvp in outlands post 80 cap.

Originally posted by Axehilt

Originally posted by bunnyhopper 

The two players engaging in economic PVP might indeed be engaging in true PVP (if they began on equal footing and no non-skill factors were involved)

They also might not be engaging in true PVP (if one player started much later than the other, and that factored into the result of their competition.)

As for MMORPGs on MMORPG.com, we were discussing PVP and I pointed out the bigger picture of PVP. The two are related in the context of which type of games humans find to be interesting competition.

As for hardcore, the facts are self-evident:

• Most PVP uses the ultimatum "Be skilled or lose," which makes it hardcore.
• In spite of being a more serious type of PVP with more losers (50% of all players) it's wildly more popular and spans many different genres of games, both video and real-world (fighting, RTS, FPS, all sports, TBS, etc)
• World PVP doesn't use that ultimatum.  Instead, there are non-skill options for you if you're not skilled enough.  Join the right guild and grind some gear and you're a winner!  Quite casual, because it's no longer pure competition.

In this context it makes no sense to pretend World PVP is hardcore by any stretch of the word.

 

It's like calling little league "hardcore" because there are so few participants, in spite of everyone getting a trophy.

No they are simply engaging in a form of pvp.  If one player joins in later they are still engaging in a form of pvp. There are only forms of pvp, there is not special "true" pvp. You should also note that a player who joins in later may use a specific set of attributes/skill sets (his own, not in game) in order to overcome players already "in the game". He could scam, ally and scheme his way to victory. But then no, that doesn't count now does it...

You asked why I thought you happened to be talking about mmorpg games, I pointed out why. It's impact upon what I pulled you up on is really neither here nor there though at the end of the day.

Your "self evident facts" don't actually refute what I said. I stated that you are wrong to suggest that arena pvp was popular due to players chasing hardcore pvp. Stating "be skilled or lose" is meant to counter that? Resorting to mottos, really?
If we are going to go down that route of batshit crazy case building then the motto "kill everyone you come across, spare no one" seems a touch more hardcore frankly.

Again you seem to be going on about whether world pvp is skilled or hardcore, again I'll point out that is not what I jumped on your comment about. There is no such thing as "true" pvp, the majority who play arena games are not there for "hardcore" pvp. What world pvp is or isn't (which you have got ass backwards btw but I refuse to debate as it is not relevant)  has feck all to do with that.

Too many people that act like they gank others for the games benefit.

People gank because they get gratification out ot it, some because they like the idea of killing enemies others because it's the only way they can.

There's a huge difference between ganking and griefing, most grieffers can't make out the difference.

Where did the OP go? He posted his 900 word essay to begin the discussion and then dissappeard...weird...

I don't mind ganking....I'd blame devs for bad gameplay

All posts by Isturi

My toon is better than yours

Originally posted by bunnyhopper

Originally posted by Quirhid
 

"Good fight" and "True pvp", yep they are not the same now are they. I don't recall talking about a "good fight" I recall pointing out there was no one "true pvp".

 

By my definition? No by my definition there is no one "true pvp".

 

I didn't use the term "true PvP", you did. And I wasn't trying to define one right way to PvP. I was saying ganking is not PvP - just like beating up an armless man is not boxing.

Originally posted by Quirhid

Originally posted by bunnyhopper

Originally posted by Quirhid
 

"Good fight" and "True pvp", yep they are not the same now are they. I don't recall talking about a "good fight" I recall pointing out there was no one "true pvp".

 

By my definition? No by my definition there is no one "true pvp".

 

I didn't use the term "true PvP", you did. Just like beating up an armless man is not boxing, ganking is not PvP.

I pulled another poster up on the term "true pvp". If you are not arguing that point then we are at cross wires on that issue.  At no point did I initially mention "good", it tends to be such a subjective word don't you think.

Ganking someone is pvp, it is just not competitive pvp in that specific instance. It is player on player, that is it massively one sided does not actually change that at all. The weaker player has not suddenly changed into a zebra, it is not PvZ, it is not PvE, it is PvP.

You can dislike it as much as you like, you can cite popularity as much as you like, I would and have already said more players prefer what is perceived to be"fairer" (or at least more accessible) pvp. But to say it is not pvp is simply odd to my mind.

Originally posted by Quirhid

Originally posted by bunnyhopper

Originally posted by Quirhid
 

"Good fight" and "True pvp", yep they are not the same now are they. I don't recall talking about a "good fight" I recall pointing out there was no one "true pvp".

 

By my definition? No by my definition there is no one "true pvp".

 

I didn't use the term "true PvP", you did. And I wasn't trying to define one right way to PvP. I was saying ganking is not PvP - just like beating up an armless man is not boxing.

But...but...if I box someone with arms they might fight back! Eeek...