You are right about this one. But it only changed because the nature of currency and progression in games also changed. In some games, money is an integral part of what you can accomplish and, thus, would have direct implications on the whole game balance.

With a more casual and less maniacal approach to in-game currencies, business models like GW2's are viable without being toxic for the game balance. With it, comes another change: the subscription-less AAA MMO.

I think it was quite an evolution. Burn, currency and equipment grinds!

i will see how thsi thing effects the game and look closely for six months before getting on the wagon

Originally posted by Stx11

Originally posted by Hurvart

Originally posted by seridan

Originally posted by Hurvart

I dont like cash shops at all. If they only sell cosmetics I can ignore them and play anyway. If they sell convinience, boosts, utility items and other advantage items it will cross the line IMO.  I will not be able to enjoy the game knowing things like that are for sale in the CS. Or if you can buy gold for RM and buy most items for gold in the AH or from vendors.

And how is that going to affect you?

I think it is unfair. I want a level playing field. My progress should not depend on how much money I spend. Its a matter of principle..and I dont like it.

If you played the game at all you would know that your progress isn't hindered at all if you don't spend a single cent in the CS. They give you so many ways to level and gain XP most consider the CS Buffs a joke and waste of money.

 This is true, but I do think that buying gold with cash gives you an advantage.  It basically means that you will always have the best or near best equipment available to you, and you will never wont for blueprints in WvW.

I know that at level 80 blueprints may not seem so expensive, but at level 15, I didn't have enough silver for even ONE trebuchet.  Couple this with the relative speed at which a battle moves in RvR and new siege equipment is needed...and all of a sudden you have a big money pit that will make buying gold for cash attractive.

The sad reality is... that the more people accept this kind of thing, the worse it will get. Boundries will always be pushed.

Originally posted by biogerm

Originally posted by solarine

The "people are buying from gold sellers if you don't make it legit in-game" argument seems like it's logical at first glance, but it's just defeatist logic - and not very good logic at that.

It's like saying you should make anything legal to buy and thus taxable if you can't stop it.

It's the principle that matters. And it really depends on the nature of what's being bought. 

If we think it's wrong / unfair to buy in-game adventage with cash, it should be prohibited. Period.

If we think it's OK / fair, then there's no problem to begin with. Have at it!

 

Myself, even purely cosmetic item shops bug me, so you can imagine where I stand on this... :)

 

why? 

 

this is an AAA mmo with no sub, how many games are out there that can say that? 

 

il tell you...None... thats right, you have no MMORPG thats is AAA with no sub.

morever,,, not a whole ago games that in AAA catagory but should not have been (I.E STO, DCUO,CO and others) took 15$ without even blinking. 

 

so you rather pay 15$ a month for a subper MMORPG? or pay IF you want for something that can make your game a bit more enjoyable, note that i did not said more powerful or more faster... since those are not true.

 

buyt hey, to each is own, and there is a big sign on the door on the way out saying EXIT.

GW2 will be more then fine. hell its going to be 10x more then that... but lets wait another month and another 6 monthes after that... then will talk.

Wow, I didn't say a word about GW2 there... I was talking about the general principle. Because, even though the thread was in the GW2 forums, the question was about the general perception.

And what's with the "EXIT" comment? Why get so annoyed just because I care about fairness in games? It's a bit funny, I must admit.

<double post>

Originally posted by Hurvart

Originally posted by seridan

Originally posted by Hurvart

I dont like cash shops at all. If they only sell cosmetics I can ignore them and play anyway. If they sell convinience, boosts, utility items and other advantage items it will cross the line IMO.  I will not be able to enjoy the game knowing things like that are for sale in the CS. Or if you can buy gold for RM and buy most items for gold in the AH or from vendors.

And how is that going to affect you?

I think it is unfair. I want a level playing field. My progress should not depend on how much money I spend. Its a matter of principle..and I dont like it.

Unfair advantage? How is that affecting you? in sPVP you gain nothing, in PVE you gain nothing, only in WvWvW you might get a bit of an advantage (at launch) once the real action starts (the grace period of WvWvW will end after a few days) most servers will be more balanced, the only real imbalance is up to level 30 (when you get your elite) after that the boosters won't make a real difference even in WvWvW.

And I repeat in sPVP or PVE there is absolutely no bonus or advantage in the Cash Shop. Unless you want to be the first at level 80 or the first to get some items from the merchant... why should you compare with others in PVE, there is no open PVP, there is no grind (to complain about leveling speed/boosters) so what is there to complain about in PVE?

I wonder how much money did he pay for all these:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZKfZ1jgkeg&feature=player_embedded

I do not support the ability for a player to turn their money into game currency, however I can't blame the gaming company for creating the step within their game.

Far too many people are buying gold from outside sources as it is. The time spent banning these people, returning hacked accounts, and policing the game can be reduced and hopefully applied to more important areas.

I am not sure acceptance is the proper word to use here unless we also apply it to the reason behind the design. Do we also accept gold sellers and farmers as normal in our games?

Originally posted by Creslin321

 This is true, but I do think that buying gold with cash gives you an advantage.  It basically means that you will always have the best or near best equipment available to you, and you will never wont for blueprints in WvW.

I know that at level 80 blueprints may not seem so expensive, but at level 15, I didn't have enough silver for even ONE trebuchet.  Couple this with the relative speed at which a battle moves in RvR and new siege equipment is needed...and all of a sudden you have a big money pit that will make buying gold for cash attractive.

One thing that is a nice change is you can now buy Blueprints with the PvP Marks that you get for kills in WvW. People who spend a lot of time in WvW will now have a "non-gold" source of Blueprints and Gear.

On the PvE Side most of the gear I want is Karma-based which I can get by playing the game. I've also enjoyed Crafting and I can Gather my own mats for that.

I'm going to be very interested to see what the Gem-to-Gold exchange rate eventually stabilizes at. Beyond some Character Slots and maybe a Bank Tab there's very little I saw in the CS that I "Must Have" and I can always buy the Gems straight up for those if I want. If others feel similarly, there isn't going to be a huge demand for Gems which will keep their prices down. And that greatly decreases their impact in the game.

Only time will tell, but the more I play the less-concerned I am about the CS.

Originally posted by Stx11

Originally posted by Creslin321

 This is true, but I do think that buying gold with cash gives you an advantage.  It basically means that you will always have the best or near best equipment available to you, and you will never wont for blueprints in WvW.

I know that at level 80 blueprints may not seem so expensive, but at level 15, I didn't have enough silver for even ONE trebuchet.  Couple this with the relative speed at which a battle moves in RvR and new siege equipment is needed...and all of a sudden you have a big money pit that will make buying gold for cash attractive.

One thing that is a nice change is you can now buy Blueprints with the PvP Marks that you get for kills in WvW. People who spend a lot of time in WvW will now have a "non-gold" source of Blueprints and Gear.

On the PvE Side most of the gear I want is Karma-based which I can get by playing the game. I've also enjoyed Crafting and I can Gather my own mats for that.

I'm going to be very interested to see what the Gem-to-Gold exchange rate eventually stabilizes at. Beyond some Character Slots and maybe a Bank Tab there's very little I saw in the CS that I "Must Have" and I can always buy the Gems straight up for those if I want. If others feel similarly, there isn't going to be a huge demand for Gems which will keep their prices down. And that greatly decreases their impact in the game.

Only time will tell, but the more I play the less-concerned I am about the CS.

 That...is very nice!  Thanks for letting me know that, I hadn't heard it before :).

Honestly this was my biggest fear about the CS, that it would wind up causing cash-for-golders to dominate WvW.  But I think this PvP marks system is a big step in the right direction.

Originally posted by Creslin321

Originally posted by Stx11

One thing that is a nice change is you can now buy Blueprints with the PvP Marks that you get for kills in WvW. People who spend a lot of time in WvW will now have a "non-gold" source of Blueprints and Gear.

On the PvE Side most of the gear I want is Karma-based which I can get by playing the game. I've also enjoyed Crafting and I can Gather my own mats for that.

I'm going to be very interested to see what the Gem-to-Gold exchange rate eventually stabilizes at. Beyond some Character Slots and maybe a Bank Tab there's very little I saw in the CS that I "Must Have" and I can always buy the Gems straight up for those if I want. If others feel similarly, there isn't going to be a huge demand for Gems which will keep their prices down. And that greatly decreases their impact in the game.

Only time will tell, but the more I play the less-concerned I am about the CS.

 That...is very nice!  Thanks for letting me know that, I hadn't heard it before :).

Honestly this was my biggest fear about the CS, that it would wind up causing cash-for-golders to dominate WvW.  But I think this PvP marks system is a big step in the right direction.

Yeah it corrected what I thought might be a potential problem too...

...and apparently ANet agreed! 

(which is another reason why I'm not concerned about GW2 - ANet has proven that they listen to their players and are willing to make sensible changes and make them quickly)

In a game like GW2 where leveling isn't the end all be all to power, the xp boosters, etc. that you can buy make little to no difference in the game.  If it were a game where the objective is to rush to level cap and grind for stat armor to "pwn the noob" in PvP, then yes it would be a serious problem.  Since you can "pwn the noob" in PvP at level 2 if you have some skill in GW2, I don't see a problem.

So, GW2 CS in WoW or WoW clone = bad

GW2 CS in GW2 or GW2 clone = ok

XP boost, etc. in PvE mean nothing to me in terms of how you acquired it so no issues there in any game.  The only time a CS bothers me in PvE is if you have to pay extra for something to access the areas your quests send you to.  For instance, in order to do my Epic quests in LotRO, I can go anywhere and do those, even in places I haven't paid for.  I just can't get the quests specific to those areas and those other quests don't do much to level/evolve my character.  Wizard 101 doesn't do it that way.  I can get some quests there that are directly tied to the leveling of my character but I can't even enter the area I need to go to do the quest unless I pay.

So, LotRO CS relation to questing = ok

Wizard 101 CS relation to questing = bad

GW2 doesn't have either of those problems because you can access everywhere in the game for 1 payment of $60.

Originally posted by bcbully

and paying cash for in game bonuses was considered pay to win by the vast majority of the mmo community. Sure you had your gold buyers, and those who played pay to win games, but they by no means were the majority.

 

My question is with the coming of GW2, the cash for gems, and the ability to pay cash for bonuses, has the perception of these things changed? 

Actually, the earlier MMO gamers had no problem with buying content from the developers. After all, there's no difference between buying an expansion and buying the individual components of it. Players wer against gold farmers and the 3rd party market.

There's a change-resistant subset of the NA audience that is being forced to come to terms withthe reality that not only have things changed, the change happened 5-7 years ago and they are only realizing it now. Judging by your view of how things supposedly were or are, I'd say you're part of that group.

"Legalize it - don't criticize it " - Peter Tosh

Yeah, the times they are a changin'...

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Originally posted by bcbully
and paying cash for in game bonuses was considered pay to win by the vast majority of the mmo community. Sure you had your gold buyers, and those who played pay to win games, but they by no means were the majority.

 

My question is with the coming of GW2, the cash for gems, and the ability to pay cash for bonuses, has the perception of these things changed? 

 

 

 

 

Disclaimer

This is not a thread about is GW2 pay to win. No minds will be changed on either side of the argument. For the record and to preemtively answer those who will assume, I do not think GW2 is a pay to win game. You can not buy the [Flaming Sword of I Win!]. I do believe you can buy bonuses that can help you in game however.  

 

 

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You forgot to mention a reason gold buying was frowned upon because it was often dependent on the hacking of accounts.

*Clarity

Originally posted by Stx11

Originally posted by Creslin321

Originally posted by Stx11

...

.

Yeah it corrected what I thought might be a potential problem too...

...and apparently ANet agreed! 

(which is another reason why I'm not concerned about GW2 - ANet has proven that they listen to their players and are willing to make sensible changes and make them quickly)

 It definitely feels that way, they do seem to very quickly and actively be fixing problems.  It also seems like their "heart" is in the right place for all this...like they don't want the game to be P2W, so they will try to prevent that from happening.  I just hope they keep up their level of responsiveness post release.

I remember back in EQ, Wizard was gimped for probably a YEAR before they fixed it lol :).

Originally posted by strangepower

 

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Originally posted by bcbully
and paying cash for in game bonuses was considered pay to win by the vast majority of the mmo community. Sure you had your gold buyers, and those who played pay to win games, but they by no means were the majority.

 

 

My question is with the coming of GW2, the cash for gems, and the ability to pay cash for bonuses, has the perception of these things changed? 

 

 

 

 

Disclaimer

This is not a thread about is GW2 pay to win. No minds will be changed on either side of the argument. For the record and to preemtively answer those who will assume, I do not think GW2 is a pay to win game. You can not buy the [Flaming Sword of I Win!]. I do believe you can buy bonuses that can help you in game however.  

 

 

---

 

You forgot to mention the main reason gold buying was frowned upon because it was often dependent on the hacking of accounts.

I don't know if this is necessarily true...it's definitely the bill of goods that a lot of companies with cash shops are selling, but I remember the main reason that gold buying was frowned upon was that it compromised the integrity of the game and created an uneven playing field.

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Originally posted by Creslin321

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Originally posted by strangepower  

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Originally posted by bcbully and paying cash for in game bonuses was considered pay to win by the vast majority of the mmo community. Sure you had your gold buyers, and those who played pay to win games, but they by no means were the majority.     My question is with the coming of GW2, the cash for gems, and the ability to pay cash for bonuses, has the perception of these things changed?          Disclaimer This is not a thread about is GW2 pay to win. No minds will be changed on either side of the argument. For the record and to preemtively answer those who will assume, I do not think GW2 is a pay to win game. You can not buy the [Flaming Sword of I Win!]. I do believe you can buy bonuses that can help you in game however.      

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  You forgot to mention the main reason gold buying was frowned upon because it was often dependent on the hacking of accounts.

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I don't know if this is necessarily true...it's definitely the bill of goods that a lot of companies with cash shops are selling, but I remember the main reason that gold buying was frowned upon was that it compromised the integrity of the game and created an uneven playing field.

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Yes, I should of said, "a" reason, not the reason.

Play world of tanks and you will understand what pay to win is about.

Paying cash for gold from an outside source is less acceptable because...

- it's illegal

- often bot gold, which can ruin economies

- players and devs do not have control over going rates, also bad for ingame economy

- the money doesn't go back into game developement, making it all-around non-beneficial for both game and the majority of players