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Guild Wars 2

Guild Wars 2 

General Discussion  » I finally understand the Pay to Win argument

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236 posts found
  Raekon

Novice Member

Joined: 3/05/04
Posts: 552

7/23/12 6:04:17 AM#161

I didn't went through all pages to read everything.

Just wanted to tell though that one of the main reasons you guys slaughtered the blue people (I was one of them) in the stonemist was that exactly at the time we came strong on the second floor and started taking you all out, the server lagged THAT hard that I was unable to build my ballista or arrow cart and everytime I tried to move I saw myself beaming from place to place till I ended up dead without being able to do anything.

We had 3 golems walking up, tons of aoe on you among other things and then BAM lag, crashes, people disconnecting and thats it.

Then I came back and it said that the server was full. -.-

Out of 3 bwes and 2 stress tests, It happened to me only once and it was exactly at that point. :/

As about money, I made more than enough in pve and in WvsWvsW and were able to buy a ballista, a arrow cart and found also a catapult bluepring as a drop.

Never spent anything on gems and came in WvsW with level 12.

Came out from WvsW with level 19 almost 20.

The armor repair costs nothing if you do it everytime you die instead of waiting till something is broken.

You can also use other armors you can buy there or some you got from drops too to save money while selling the unneeded stuff you got there to actually make more money.

  User Deleted
7/23/12 6:46:31 AM#162

There is no "pay to win". You can purchase siege engine blueprints with badges you loot from dead enemies too, and then they don't cost a cent.

  Ridrith

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/11/08
Posts: 305

7/23/12 6:58:41 AM#163

This isn't pay to win.  If you go by that conversion rate, this guy would have to have spent at least 500 dollars on gems.  Do you honestly think there's going to be a lot of people that desperate for an advantage in a game like this?  You happen to see an exception to the rule.  This guy was either rich, or just a complete shutin/basement dwelling creature who happens to have cash laying around.

 

4000 gems = 50 bucks.  8000 gems = 100 bucks.  By the rate you said...  100 gems = 50 silver, that would net you 40 gold after spending 100 dollars.  He'd have spent a huge amount of cash in order to net those gems.  I highly doubt you'll be seeing a lot of that in game.  Sure, you probably will see some people.  However it won't make that big of a difference once people actually go out and level and focus on that kind of content.  You can also do PvP scenarios where gold won't factor in at all until you're up there in levels and ready for WvW.

 

Let's not forget that this was the BWE.  Even if he did spend that kind of cash on gems, he probably only blew all of it on PvP because why would he bother buying anything in the shop?  It's not like he'd keep it.  He'll probably end up spending gems on cosmetic items and other cool little trinkets when the game is actually out.

  Hurvart

Novice Member

Joined: 11/02/10
Posts: 566

7/23/12 7:08:01 AM#164

I think everything that makes you more powerful is P2W if you can buy it with real money. It makes no difference if you can also grind and eventually get it in game. The person that spends money will get it sooner and faster and will win.

Maybe people that are doing the long grind will catch up eventually. But before that happens there will perhaps be a content patch with new gear and other items. A reset.... And the big spender will be better again.

Typically when you can buy things for RM and can also get the same things in game the people that spend RM will be better at first but others will catch up.  But catching up will often not be fast and easy. And you will perhaps need to stop having fun and start grinding again later when you need more advantage items to be able to compete. Or you can pay instead to avoid that. I mean the whole business model is based on that idea. There must be a reason for some people to feel they want to spend money. Without that there will be no long term profit for the company. And every company with a CS-game wants and need long term profit.

  Rhianni32

Novice Member

Joined: 3/23/10
Posts: 223

7/23/12 7:12:45 AM#165

Breaking news flash!

People playing the game on Day 1 are short on cash.

Coming up next our continuing coverage on how level 80s beat level 1s...

  Nitth

Elite Member

Joined: 7/29/10
Posts: 3303

Magic Propels my Rolly Chair.

7/23/12 7:24:19 AM#166

lol. are gw2 fans that full of pride they cannot admit there is even a chance of a possible problem here?


TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development

  Nitth

Elite Member

Joined: 7/29/10
Posts: 3303

Magic Propels my Rolly Chair.

7/23/12 7:27:15 AM#167


Originally posted by Rhianni32
Breaking news flash!

People playing the game on Day 1 are short on cash.



lol...thats actually what is being discussed here, if they buy gems and convert it to gold, no they arnt.


TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development

  minttunator

Novice Member

Joined: 3/02/09
Posts: 132

7/23/12 7:32:50 AM#168
Originally posted by Atlan99

I am not claiming P2W, I'm claiming Pay for a substaintable advantage. Paying for an advantage is very different than paying to win. Though the goal is the same.

I'm actually pretty miffed that P2W became a universal term instead of something like P4A (pay for an advantage). As it stands, whenever P2W is brought up, fanboys start arguing semantics ("what is it that you're winning?" etc) instead of the core issue, which is that people can pay cash money to gain some sort of an advantage in-game. :p

  minttunator

Novice Member

Joined: 3/02/09
Posts: 132

7/23/12 7:38:08 AM#169
Originally posted by rissies

Here's a question, spawned by a GW2 gold seller posting in the pub (here for however long its up.) Let's say the cash shop did somehow magically give a player such a great edge that they basically "won" GW2. Do think it more beneficial if the cash shop was removed, and those seeking a cash advantage went to goldsellers and ebay to gain it? Are you more concerned about the principle of the thing rather than the practicalities?

It would be beneficial to the integrity of the game, since those people would get their accounts/credit cards stolen and/or be banned from the game if caught. It wouldn't, however, be beneficial for NCsoft's bottom line - which is why we have the cash shop that we have. :)

  Fadedbomb

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 5/19/06
Posts: 2149

7/23/12 8:02:40 AM#170
Originally posted by Magnnarot

GW2 isn't pay to win, its pay for CONVENIENCE.

Same thing actually. You're trying to twist the definition to something less-evil than you want it to appear simply because you favor the game. That's called being Biased.

Pay-To-Win, by ANY definition, is where you can obtain in-game advancement (ie: exp, in-game currency, etc) that allows an easier transition than someone who is not paying RL currency to the cash shop.

 

This is all alleviated with a low $15/month subscription fee without a cash shop. Everyone is then on a level playing field and no one person can spend more than another (except on multiple accounts) to achieve faster/easier/more with RL currency.

 

If you go by the TRADITIONAL definition that originated from Asian Grinders then yes, GW2 = PayToWin. Just because you don't consider it a "Win" strategy does NOT detriment the overall definition. It's like trying to rewrite the Lord of the Rings series simply because you like elves more than hobbits.

The Theory of Conservative Conservation of Ignorant Stupidity:
Having a different opinion must mean you're a troll.

  Fadedbomb

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 5/19/06
Posts: 2149

7/23/12 8:04:32 AM#171
Originally posted by minttunator
Originally posted by rissies

Here's a question, spawned by a GW2 gold seller posting in the pub (here for however long its up.) Let's say the cash shop did somehow magically give a player such a great edge that they basically "won" GW2. Do think it more beneficial if the cash shop was removed, and those seeking a cash advantage went to goldsellers and ebay to gain it? Are you more concerned about the principle of the thing rather than the practicalities?

It would be beneficial to the integrity of the game, since those people would get their accounts/credit cards stolen and/or be banned from the game if caught. It wouldn't, however, be beneficial for NCsoft's bottom line - which is why we have the cash shop that we have. :)

Your statement makes no sense. GoldSellers will ALWAYS undercut any going rate for in-game P2W cashshops that allow you to purchase currency. It happened in 9dragons, and other Asian MMOs. Why do you seem to think it won't happen in GW2?

The Theory of Conservative Conservation of Ignorant Stupidity:
Having a different opinion must mean you're a troll.

  terrant

Novice Member

Joined: 3/16/07
Posts: 1685

7/23/12 8:57:29 AM#172
Originally posted by Fadedbomb
Originally posted by Magnnarot

GW2 isn't pay to win, its pay for CONVENIENCE.

Same thing actually. You're trying to twist the definition to something less-evil than you want it to appear simply because you favor the game. That's called being Biased.

Pay-To-Win, by ANY definition, is where you can obtain in-game advancement (ie: exp, in-game currency, etc) that allows an easier transition than someone who is not paying RL currency to the cash shop.

 

This is all alleviated with a low $15/month subscription fee without a cash shop. Everyone is then on a level playing field and no one person can spend more than another (except on multiple accounts) to achieve faster/easier/more with RL currency.

 

If you go by the TRADITIONAL definition that originated from Asian Grinders then yes, GW2 = PayToWin. Just because you don't consider it a "Win" strategy does NOT detriment the overall definition. It's like trying to rewrite the Lord of the Rings series simply because you like elves more than hobbits.

I would say that's YOUR definition, not ANY. I would argue that the difference is scale.

 

Is cash shop item unique to the cash shop, and far more powerful than anything you can get in game? P2W

Is a cash shop item available in game, but almost impossibly rare/takes months to find one? P2W

 

Is GW2 P2W by MY definition? no. Here's why.

 

Cast aside all fluff items for a minute and look at the ones that have practical in game value. Repair canisters are fairly easy to come by (I got several in the three days of the BWE this weekend, and never needed a one). Mystic Keys less so, but they still drop in game, and often drop from chests themselves. I got 8 keys for 9 chests during the BWE without the cash shop. Oh and the rewards are generally not that awesome.

 

XP Boosters, you say! Oh my god that guy can level so much faster! Wrong They only count on mob kills, which are the least portion of your xp. He WILL level faster than you... but not by much. And what if he does? Unless you're looking for a world first achievement (there aren't any BTW), levelling ahead of someone is meaningless. At best they can earn skill points faster at cap which means they can get Legendary skins faster...but again, not by much. And from what we know there's other components involved that they cannot just buy.

 

Pretty much everything I said above goes for Karma boosters. Worst case, they get some armor before you. The gear difference in this game is far less than others. They might have a slight numeric edge, but they couldn't immediately WTFpwn you because their armor is a grade or two higher. Even asuming you both play equally well. The smarter player will beat the better geared one.

 

Killstreaks...Just not commenting. they're stupid.

 

Gold Boosters. OMG they can get gold faster! Gold is only useful for four things in this game. 1) Transit. The cost of which is negligible by the time you get to 15 or so. 2) Repairs. See 1. 3) Buying things on the Market. This in player controlled, so how much use they get out of that gold is partly up to you as the buyer/seller. Worst I can see someone doing is buying TONS of crafting mats and powerlevelling a toon via crafting. 4) Seige in WvW. Which is still reliant on seige. Got 700 golem plans? Great. Good luck building them all. And before you link the Team Legacy video, keep in mind they controlled something like 98% of all four maps when they did that, and had hundreds of players working on concert to pull if off. Oh, and they didn't need the cash shop to afford it. Plans aren't that expensive.

 

Magic Find. OK, this could be a scary one. Until you read how it actually works. Based on what I and others have seen, the effective is not additive. in other words, it doesn't turn a 1% drop rate into a 51% drop rate. Rather it's multiplicative. That 1% rare drop item? Congrats on your amazingly leet 1.5% drop rate. I am envious that, statistically speaking, you will get that a handful of kills faster than me. 

 

If anyone can come up with any practical responses as to what item in the shop could imbalance gameplay and how, without resorting to simply saying "It's a cash shop, therefore it's P2W", I'd be happy to listen.

 

  Atlan99

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/07/08
Posts: 1355

7/23/12 10:02:00 AM#173
Originally posted by terrant
 

 4) Seige in WvW. Which is still reliant on seige. Got 700 golem plans? Great. Good luck building them all. And before you link the Team Legacy video, keep in mind they controlled something like 98% of all four maps when they did that, and had hundreds of players working on concert to pull if off. Oh, and they didn't need the cash shop to afford it. Plans aren't that expensive.

At launch buying gems to trade for gold will have a huge impact on your peronal contribution to your server in WvWvW. I find it hard to see how anyone could even try and debate this.

As far as Team Legacy goes. They were giving away free Gems to everybody who registered a CC for that BWE. If you don't think that Team Legacy traded those Gems for Gold, I don't know what to say. So that dominance you saw by Team Legacy was also funded by Gold for Gems.

I don't know if you have limited experience with WvWvW. However let me give you a little scenario. We take a supply camp. I then pay to double the camps supplies. I run with my team and to take a keep. I drop two rams. We take the keep quickly. Most people would be broke by this point. I still haven't even dented my reserves. I drop some arrow carts on the wall for good measure as I leave. I head back to the camp to hire guards for supply caravans. This means 1 player is going to have a hard time destroying supply caravans.

I go back and meet up with my team who just finished taking another supply camp. I then pay to double the supply caravans provide for this camp. I then run with my team to the next keep. I drop another 2 rams for this keep. After we take the keep I drop 3 arrow carts on the  walls and hire workers to complete upgrades faster.

I still have barely scratched the surface of gold at this point and have already made a huge impact on the amount of supply our server is receiving, how quickly we were able to take keeps and how defensible those keeps are.

 

  UngoHumungo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/28/05
Posts: 522

I'm here......wheres the fish?

7/23/12 10:07:05 AM#174
Originally posted by DanitaKusor

After spending a good portion of today in WvW I finally understand why people are saying this game is Play-to-win and I am starting to agree with that assertion.

My experience in WvW was limited money gain vs. high repair costs every time I died which was leaving most of the team naked because they couldn't afford to repair their armour when we were originally matched against a full server and got slaughtered every time we stepped outside the door.

Later after the matchups changed we were left with a better situtation and got some more people on the server after people were transferring off full servers because they couldn't get into WvW (my server never had a queue for any of the zones).  So we managed to take some castles and I made a bit of money from those captures, but still certainly not enough to buy siege weapons of any kind.  I had about 12silver when I finished, but needed to spend 10s of that on the manual to unlock traits, so a 2s profit from a full day of WvW.

Anyway, I went off to dinner and when I came back I found a new player had arrived in the zone on our side.  He had bought the commander title (now 100g), and had started laying out siege engines like candy with each battle, including golems which are 1g a piece.  He paid for every keep upgrade at our two main keeps leading up to Stonemist and put up arrow carts, cannons, mortars, and a trebuchet as defensive weapons. on the walls.

The end result was that although we were heavily outnumbered still vs. the blue server which was another full server we were able to smash through the walls of Stonemist several times and nearly took it.  When we were eventually driven back, the enemy players came into range out of newly fortified keeps and were slaughtered by the dozens and forced to retreat, even though they had larger numbers.  The fight was still going on when I logged off so I'm not sure where it will end.

The end result was through the actions of one player who was buying gems and changed them into gold (current rate is 50silver per 100gems), my server was able to move into second place and threaten the main keep in the Eternal Battlegrounds.

Now perhaps by the time people reach 80 we will be earning enough coin that this won't be an issue, but certainly as it stands in the beta at the moment the person willing to spend RL money on gems can make a huge difference to a server.  It's so much easier when every time you are assaulting a keep someone turns up with 2 rams and a ballista or a golem instead of trying to take the door down by hand.

I hadn't spent much time in WvW in previous beta but seeing this in action today it was a real eye opener. 

Edit: Fixed the title, that's what comes from lack of sleep.

that person was most likely a member of a guild who is practing on how to get folks in seige position with lil help from outside the guild thing about it if you have 100 member and each member generate 1 gold then this doesn't seem like pay to win this seems like teamwork which is one of the core fundamentals of the game.  So I must whole heartedly disagree this is not pay to win,  its a matter of exceptional teamwork. All I can say is "Step your game up son!"

There are times when one must ask themselves is it my passion that truly frightens you? Or your own?

  seridan

Novice Member

Joined: 5/26/12
Posts: 1212

7/23/12 10:08:40 AM#175
Originally posted by Atlan99

At launch buying gems to trade for gold will have a huge impact on your peronal contribution to your server in WvWvW. I find it hard to see how anyone could even try and debate this.

As far as Team Legacy goes. They were giving away free Gems to everybody who registered a CC for that BWE. If you don't think that Team Legacy traded those Gems for Gold, I don't know what to say. So that dominance you saw by Team Legacy was also funded by Gold for Gems.

I don't know if you have limited experience with WvWvW. However let me give you a little scenario. We take a supply camp. I then pay to double the camps supplies. I run with my team and to take a keep. I drop two rams. We take the keep quickly. Most people would be broke by this point. I still haven't even dented my reserves. I drop some arrow carts on the wall for good measure as I leave. I head back to the camp to hire guards for supply caravans. This means 1 player is going to have a hard time destroying supply caravans.

I go back and meet up with my team who just finished taking another supply camp. I then pay to double the supply caravans provide for this camp. I then run with my team to the next keep. I drop another 2 rams for this keep. After we take the keep I drop 3 arrow carts on the  walls and hire workers to complete upgrades faster.

I still have barely scratched the surface of gold at this point and have already made a huge impact on the amount of supply our server is receiving, how quickly we were able to take keeps and how defensible those keeps are.

 

And that advantage will last for how long? Keep in mind that WvWvW will change every 24 hours when the game is first launched and those "advantages" will seem more significant. Once some more time passes and players understand how to play and cooperate + develop tactics + level up their skills (player or character skills) then we'll see the impact those gems will have.

Block the trolls, don't answer them, so we can remove the garbage from these forums

  Popori

Novice Member

Joined: 8/20/03
Posts: 333

7/23/12 10:19:34 AM#176

The Gold for Gems works on a supply and demand basis, and just like you can trade gems for gold, you can trade gold for gems.  If people continuously pump the market full of gems, it will result in a copper on the dollar return.  You can then trade copper for a bulk of gems and wait for the market to recover and trade those gems in for a large profit.

You can get gems and gold from the RMT without ever spending a cent.

The RMT shop allows you to advance faster and look cooler, it does not take something out of the hands of others or allow others to reach further heights than any other player.

If you're not convinced, do not play.  If you can provide me with evidence that someone will be able to best you simply through something purchased via RMT, I'll listen.  As I see it, leveling speed and gold will not grant that advantage if you take the time to earn it similarly.

  terrant

Novice Member

Joined: 3/16/07
Posts: 1685

7/23/12 10:28:13 AM#177
Originally posted by Atlan99
Originally posted by terrant
 

 4) Seige in WvW. Which is still reliant on seige. Got 700 golem plans? Great. Good luck building them all. And before you link the Team Legacy video, keep in mind they controlled something like 98% of all four maps when they did that, and had hundreds of players working on concert to pull if off. Oh, and they didn't need the cash shop to afford it. Plans aren't that expensive.

At launch buying gems to trade for gold will have a huge impact on your peronal contribution to your server in WvWvW. I find it hard to see how anyone could even try and debate this.

As far as Team Legacy goes. They were giving away free Gems to everybody who registered a CC for that BWE. If you don't think that Team Legacy traded those Gems for Gold, I don't know what to say. So that dominance you saw by Team Legacy was also funded by Gold for Gems.

I don't know if you have limited experience with WvWvW. However let me give you a little scenario. We take a supply camp. I then pay to double the camps supplies. I run with my team and to take a keep. I drop two rams. We take the keep quickly. Most people would be broke by this point. I still haven't even dented my reserves. I drop some arrow carts on the wall for good measure as I leave. I head back to the camp to hire guards for supply caravans. This means 1 player is going to have a hard time destroying supply caravans.

I go back and meet up with my team who just finished taking another supply camp. I then pay to double the supply caravans provide for this camp. I then run with my team to the next keep. I drop another 2 rams for this keep. After we take the keep I drop 3 arrow carts on the  walls and hire workers to complete upgrades faster.

I still have barely scratched the surface of gold at this point and have already made a huge impact on the amount of supply our server is receiving, how quickly we were able to take keeps and how defensible those keeps are.

 

The only way two rams are going to make a difference in "quickly" dropping a keep is if the defenders are stupid. Hey, there's someone building something in front of the door. Maybe we should keep that from happening, yes? You're also assuming you just steamrolled over every supply camp you went to. Oh, and that no one killed the 8 people carry full supply you needed just to put down two rams in the first place. And that no one upgraded the keep's and supply camps defense on the other side. And a hundred other things.

 

And for all those upgrades, last I looked you needed supply, not just throwing gold at them. You have to have supply to make supply.

 

And this all completely ignores the fact that, once again, the cost in gold of blueprints is tiny. I could buy two rams at level 10 and not break the bank. 

 

 

So here's a total list of all the assumptions made to let that scenario above work:

  • The other side didn't offer meaningful defense anywhere
  • The other side did not upgrade anything
  • The other side did not use counter-seige 
  • The other side did not intercept and kill supply runners
  • Your side was so mind-bogglingly poor that they couldn't buy a couple 2 silver blueprints without using cash from the gem shop.

Edited to fix some, but probably not all, of my horrid typos.

  Kalafax

Novice Member

Joined: 9/05/05
Posts: 502

7/23/12 10:36:06 AM#178

Im just gonna go out and say we were rich, and had all the upgrades and blueprints we coulda wanted, and then we go double teamed by the other servers and we couldnt do anything with all of that stuff because we had no access to supply camps, we were literally crippled for 4 hours before we could rally and get a camp back and make the slow progress of rebuilding.

Money will make a difference, but it will be no game breaker of any sort

 

 

I believe so people think we are talking about supply and demend, we are not, we are talking about the supply resources you get in the WvW that you must use to build EVERYTHING

Mess with the best, Die like the rest

  Wolvards

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/27/12
Posts: 674

7/23/12 10:39:48 AM#179
Originally posted by Nitth

lol. are gw2 fans that full of pride they cannot admit there is even a chance of a possible problem here?

I'll admit it, It's P2W... Only for the first week though. By the end of the BWE I was level 17 on my warrior, level 10 on my thief, and a ranger level 8ish.

My warrior was making more than enough money with attacking keeps and supply camps that I was able to repair and buy a decent amount of siege (20 ballista's hahaha). Keep in mind i bought those with half badges of honor (Loot drops off dead enemies) and spare money. Not to mention I had so much damn Karma if I didn't have enough money to repair i just bought new armor haha...

I spent 20 bucks in the Gem shop too, only cause i know i'll get all that back at launch, so my and my guildies get to start with a buffer zone on money for leveling up woop woop!

Oh any if you want to farm Badges of Honor, get a couple peeps and camp a supply point in the back of enemy territory... With ballista's. We held off a zerg for about 10 minutes. I got 20 BoH, they got about the same too...

 

The "Youtube Pro": Someone who watches video's on said subject, and obviously has a full understanding of what is being said about such subject.

  xholyacc

Novice Member

Joined: 4/15/12
Posts: 57

7/23/12 10:59:00 AM#180

pay 2 win?  spawning many blueprients? tell me how many resource do you need to make the ballista you can affor it yourself? no you can't. and the blueprint cost is almost nothing i can say 1 thing. If anyone crying about the blueprient cost i dont know wheter you are just plain stupid or trolling. (10 silver?)

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