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Guild Wars 2

Guild Wars 2 

General Discussion  » I finally understand the Pay to Win argument

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236 posts found
  Grahor

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/08/11
Posts: 854

7/22/12 6:00:28 AM#141
Originally posted by Phry
Originally posted by rogabr

so the guy brought about 30,000 gems and still didnt win

 

 

Oh yea, pay to win totally, yep,mmmmhmmm

if just one guy can make that much difference though, imagine what it would have been like if there had been half a dozen, or a dozen even, doing the same thing.. unless people do the same on the opposing side then, i can imagine that the outcome would have been far less than clear cut, it might even have reversed the outcome completely.

Likely there would be no difference whatsoever. Law of diminishing returns. Once you've reached your cap in gold, any more gold will not bring you any more noticeable benefits. In GW2 WvW you have a number of bottlenecks: gold, supply, player bodies. Once you've added unlimited gold, you are still limited by supply and player bodies, and you can't buy those with gems or gold.

 

Also, filling the gold cap doesn't seem to be hard even without buying gems for higher levels.

 

I'm not worried at all.

  lilHeala

Novice Member

Joined: 8/30/11
Posts: 528

7/22/12 6:24:58 AM#142
Originally posted by hikaru77
Originally posted by eyelolled

Nice to see that another TSW fanboi has started a thread trying to take GW2 down a notch. Too bad that TSW can't hold peoples attention long enough so they need to try and belittle all the other games to make theirs look like it's worth spending money on.

 

So yeah, in the first day, the game clearly could be pay 2 win! Nice discovery Einstein!  Make sure you write a book about it. 

 

 

Im not playing TSW, but i can tell you now this: TSW will be MMO of the year and not gw2. back to the Pay to win topic, if you take a look at the shop you´ll find ¨50% boost¨ for everything even a ¨50% epic drop boost¨, thats pay to win. 

I think you need to do some thinking about what is "winning". Yes that player has some items sooner than you and may get better drops, but how does that affect you, and how does he win from other players?

Sure if your metagame is the economy or getting as many items as possible (that have little to no influence on the relative power a player has gameplay wise) then you may have an argument.

But as it stands it doesn't win anything in competetive pvp (no buffs working there, everyone maxed in gear and stats) and in WvW it will balance out because every server will have some people spending cash in the shop to get boosts so earn gold faster and can buy siege equipment faster and even if some servers have all the rich guys they'll be matched against eachother when rebalancing the matches against other servers to be relatively the same in power.

And I think it's laughable if you think someone can win over other players in a cooperative pve environment where there's no progresion raiding so also no server firsts to brag about.

 

 

  Vesavius

Old School

Joined: 3/08/04
Posts: 7493

Players come for the game, but they stay for the people- Most Devs have forgotten this.

7/22/12 6:36:00 AM#143
Originally posted by Phry
Originally posted by rogabr

so the guy brought about 30,000 gems and still didnt win

Oh yea, pay to win totally, yep,mmmmhmmm

if just one guy can make that much difference though, imagine what it would have been like if there had been half a dozen, or a dozen even, doing the same thing.. unless people do the same on the opposing side then, i can imagine that the outcome would have been far less than clear cut, it might even have reversed the outcome completely.

 

True, but I simply cannot see enough people doing this on such an extended basis that it will ever be an issue that is more then maybe a blip now and again.

This was beta, the guy could throw $1000 (or whatever) at the cash shop and blow it in this way in one sitting simply because he knew he would be getting that money back at launch.

Who is honestly going going to burn 30k Gems (or whatever) daily on every battle?

 

  3-4thElf

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/03/12
Posts: 497

7/22/12 9:41:22 AM#144
Originally posted by DanitaKusor
Originally posted by 3-4thElf

The OP isn't even clear that his Mr. Moneybags won in the end. It sounded like he delayed things. Sounded like the player had a lot of fun doing this for people. I don't see any "instant win".

No we didn't "win".  We went from holding nothing to holding 4 towers, a keep and two supply camps (around 1/3rd of the map) and stayed pretty much that way until the bug shut WvW down... which was fortunate because the 10,000 enemy reinforcements were nuking my poor team off the map.

From that point on we were kind of stuck and could move left or right and take a tower or two and a supply camp but didn't have the numbers to push past the much larger enemy numbers.

To give you an idea of how under populated the server I'm on is, I have never had to queue to get into WvW once for the whole weekend. 

So how was there any winning? 

a yo ho ho

  gladosrev2

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/21/09
Posts: 204

7/22/12 9:58:41 AM#145

Sure this is a problem when you're all level 1 and make 13 copper of a dynamic event in 10 minutes :P You have to take the income of a level 80 into account, which, if it's anything like in any other average MMO, will be astronomically higher. I wouldn't be surprised if 1g was pocket money, especially if you take market trading into account.

And btw, 100gems for 50 silver is a very very bad ratio. Isn't the other way around something like 125 gems for 14 silver? It's rather silly to waste real money this way on something as short lasting as taking a keep. The player didn't win.. he lost, hard.

My Guild Wars 2 First Beta Weekend "reviewette" : http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/4944570/thread/349125#4944570

  Yaos

Novice Member

Joined: 10/12/04
Posts: 154

7/22/12 1:34:33 PM#146

So somebody on your side bought tons of gold, then bought tons of seige eqiupment and you were still unable to win. How is this pay to win if you lost?

  Atlan99

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/07/08
Posts: 1355

7/22/12 2:02:20 PM#147

Obviously nothing except an acutal "I win button" would be literally P2W.

However this more along the lines of pay for a massive advantage at launch. Which is what it will be if you Buy Gems to trade for gold.

It will remain to seen if this advantage will conitune past the first intial few weeks. What I can say from all my WvWvW experience is at least intially, it will be a huge advantage. You can even buy double supply.

  Ezhae

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/03/06
Posts: 735

7/22/12 2:11:30 PM#148

Gems can't get sold for gold without other players spending that gold. If a guy actually managed to get the commander book in this beta I'm guessing he is a guild leader and got guild funded. 

You can buy siege weapons, including the Golem for Marks of Honor that drop from players killed in WvWvW. Had enoughf or golem after about 400 kills. 

Went to WvWvW at level 10 with 11 silver. Now at level 20 I have 30 silver, bought the trait book and repair regularly, haven't done any quests outside of WvWvW after level 10. 

 

So yeah. Sorry. But I don't buy it. 

 

  Atlan99

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/07/08
Posts: 1355

7/22/12 2:27:57 PM#149
Originally posted by Ezhae

Gems can't get sold for gold without other players spending that gold. If a guy actually managed to get the commander book in this beta I'm guessing he is a guild leader and got guild funded. 

You can buy siege weapons, including the Golem for Marks of Honor that drop from players killed in WvWvW. Had enoughf or golem after about 400 kills. 

Went to WvWvW at level 10 with 11 silver. Now at level 20 I have 30 silver, bought the trait book and repair regularly, haven't done any quests outside of WvWvW after level 10. 

 

So yeah. Sorry. But I don't buy it. 

 

I bought a bunch of blueprints. I upgraded supply depots. Doubling their supply and increasing the number of guards. I upgraded keeps walls and hired extra workers to make upgrades go faster. I bought cannons for walls.

I also while not in WvWvW bought the gems I needed to slot my gear.

I still have almost 8 gold.

  miscrpgdude

Novice Member

Joined: 3/22/08
Posts: 28

7/22/12 3:51:31 PM#150
Originally posted by lilHeala

I think you need to do some thinking about what is "winning". Yes that player has some items sooner than you and may get better drops, but how does that affect you, and how does he win from other players?

 

Personally I don't even play MMO's as multiplayer games anymore. But I am so tired of reading this absurd attempt at rationalizing the reality of a P2W mechanic. Different people feel differently about types of competition. Some people set goals for thems or "compete" with other like minded individuals in different ways. Their individual playstyles are no less valid then the one that you are interested in. Not only can it affect their ability to "compete" in these ways but it can completely make any kind of real competition impossible.

In other words it DOES have an effect on their ability to enjoy the games.

Originally posted by lilHeala

Sure if your metagame is the economy or getting as many items as possible (that have little to no influence on the relative power a player has gameplay wise) then you may have an argument.


Exactly, if someone enjoys seeing how much gold they can accumulate relative to others then it absolutley does affect them.

 

Originally posted by lilHeala
But as it stands it doesn't win anything in competetive pvp (no buffs working there, everyone maxed in gear and stats) and in WvW it will balance out because every server will have some people spending cash in the shop to get boosts so earn gold faster and can buy siege equipment faster and even if some servers have all the rich guys they'll be matched against eachother when rebalancing the matches against other servers to be relatively the same in power

This is absurd, because there will be people on both sides doing it, it will balance out? Thats assinine and utterly irrelevent to the spirit of fair competition.

 

Originally posted by lilHeala
And I think it's laughable if you think someone can win over other players in a cooperative pve environment where there's no progresion raiding so also no server firsts to brag about.

I can pretty much guarantee there will be server firsts for many things.

  Adalwulff

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/18/10
Posts: 1191

"I am not the light, or the darkness, but the twilight in between"

7/22/12 4:01:19 PM#151
Originally posted by Atlan99
Originally posted by Adalwulff

Have you played WvWvW?

Because if you had you would realize that supply is seldom an issue. Once you have the mindest to always grab supply, you always have it. Gold on the other hand you can't really get in WvWvW unless you take time away from PvP and objectives to do it.

I expect this to change as the game matures, but at launch a small coordinated group with unlimited gold can faceroll much large uncoordinated groups. We held off 50+ at one point with a group of six. 4 arrow carts and oil = gg.

 

No.. I have never played the WvW...

 

That's what I thought. So why are you posting like you have a clue what you are talking about?

You don't have the experience in WvWvW to add anything to the discussion. All you can possibly do is mislead people.

The fact is that small groups of dedicated PvP players who are willing to use the cash shop are going to have a huge impact on WvWvW at launch. I would even go so far to say that if you don't but gems for WvWvW at launch,  you are gimping yourself.

 

Why did you only quote a part of my post? That part was sarcasm, the rest of it explained what I thought of your lame P2W arguement.

[mod edit]

  Atlan99

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/07/08
Posts: 1355

7/22/12 4:45:28 PM#152
Originally posted by Adalwulff
Originally posted by Atlan99
Originally posted by Adalwulff

Have you played WvWvW?

Because if you had you would realize that supply is seldom an issue. Once you have the mindest to always grab supply, you always have it. Gold on the other hand you can't really get in WvWvW unless you take time away from PvP and objectives to do it.

I expect this to change as the game matures, but at launch a small coordinated group with unlimited gold can faceroll much large uncoordinated groups. We held off 50+ at one point with a group of six. 4 arrow carts and oil = gg.

 

No.. I have never played the WvW...

 

That's what I thought. So why are you posting like you have a clue what you are talking about?

You don't have the experience in WvWvW to add anything to the discussion. All you can possibly do is mislead people.

The fact is that small groups of dedicated PvP players who are willing to use the cash shop are going to have a huge impact on WvWvW at launch. I would even go so far to say that if you don't but gems for WvWvW at launch,  you are gimping yourself.

 

Why did you only quote a part of my post? That part was sarcasm, the rest of it explained what I thought of your lame P2W arguement.

[mod edit]

I am not claiming P2W, I'm claiming Pay for a substaintable advantage. Paying for an advantage is very different than paying to win. Though the goal is the same.

Win

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/win

Advantage

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/advantage

I believe it is pretty much indisputable that buying gems for launch. Then using those Gems to buy Gold. Then using that gold to buy all the blueprints and upgrades you want, will give you a huge advantage and drastically increase your contribution to your server's perfromance in WvWvW

  DonVadim

Novice Member

Joined: 4/22/10
Posts: 46

7/22/12 6:53:43 PM#153

BTW for example you can get mystic keys for mystic chests as rare drops from monsters.

Also arenanet already said that at the start WvWvW will be in 24 hour mode instead of 2 weeks battle so I don't think people that sell alot gems early (keep in mind they would lose HUGE amount of real money if they decide to convert it into ingame gold during such early stage as there WILL be hyperinflation and gold will be losing its value literaly every minute) will be a problem at all.

  lizardbones

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10953

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

7/22/12 7:42:24 PM#154

Unless I have to purchase something to progress or if my contribution to the game isn't relevant because of the cash shop, I don't see it as pay to win.

In the game Requiem, if you didn't buy XP boosters, you would probably not make it to max level. It was expensive. In GW2, I'm going to get to max level with or without XP boosters and I'm going to do it in a pretty short period of time.

In games like LoL or Warhammer, buying stuff from the cash shop means you will win in PvP. I'm sure some sort of baseline skill plays into things, but it seems that cash money makes you a winner. In GW2, at a low level with almost no knowledge of what I'm doing, me and one other person can hold off a dozen people just by repairing gates. It seems like a group can take a well defended gate by cutting off supply lines. That gate will eventually fall without supplies.

Let's assume that you can pay to win more in the PvP and let's also assume some servers will pay more money and will win more. Those servers will end up facing each other. The servers that don't pay to win more will be fighting against servers that don't pay to win more. It will balance out.

I've thought about this and I think it's genius on Anet's part. People are going to pay for advantages that don't really do anything. People will feel better about their characters or something, but the overall difference between someone who pays and someone who doesn't will be nothing.

I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  rissies

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/23/11
Posts: 162

7/23/12 4:34:10 AM#155

Here's a question, spawned by a GW2 gold seller posting in the pub (here for however long its up.) Let's say the cash shop did somehow magically give a player such a great edge that they basically "won" GW2. Do think it more beneficial if the cash shop was removed, and those seeking a cash advantage went to goldsellers and ebay to gain it? Are you more concerned about the principle of the thing rather than the practicalities?

  Kykyryz-a

Novice Member

Joined: 7/19/10
Posts: 114

7/23/12 4:53:52 AM#156

Good for some1 if he/she wasted  so much money to buy 100g  not sure why.

But its just 1 example. this week WvW  was crappy and it happened only because  most ppl were new and joined WvW on their 1-5lvls with no clue what they should do. Sure any1 who spend some time in game will  lvl up a bit earn some money buy  blueprint and  own 10 of unarmed 1lvls. its not  even close to Pay to win. 

First of all it was not smart to expect somethg else than Repair bills if you joined it at 1 lvl with out skilled unlocks and money for blueprints   it will simply end up bad.

Second  WvW is nameless and no1 can see name of  such "winner" adn he cant say im Best on the server or somethg like it. and  it will  be just good income for Arenanet hehe.  Later Ppl will understand and lvl up for WvW and both sides will be with siedge weapons  will be another story. Now all i saw is 40ppl bangung their heads against gates  and 5-10 ppl nuking them from top of the wall with arrow carts and oil.. and  woneding why and how.

Edit: also money not a problem in this game. i Ended up with alsomst 3g after Bwe. any1 can repair and buy blueprints  no need to wait for 1 big spender to buy you catapult :)  Also Golems are useless :)

  keinohr

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/14/11
Posts: 61

7/23/12 5:27:00 AM#157

This isn't a P2W argument. If that would be the case than every single mmorpg with RMT is P2W. My main problem with the GW2's cash shop are the boosts(magic find, exp +50%, karma +50%, etc.).

  aesperus

Elite Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 4847

7/23/12 5:40:16 AM#158

Some people really have lost track of what P2W actually means.

 

For starters, if that's who I think it is, he got that much gold in-game (i.e. he didn't spend a dime of real-money to get it). So, yes, theoretically someone could use real money to bankroll a WvW skirmish. It would be monumentally stupid to do so, but it would be doable, yes.

Gold in this game is insanely easy to get. I had 10gold by lvl 20 just from doing PvE / crafting. I would've had a lot more if my marketplace was working correctly. Events in the 15-25+ areas reward over 1silver a pop. So, once you start getting into the 30+ areas, gold really isn't much of an issue, unless you are a very poor player, or a binge spender.

Pay 2 Win, means buying an advantage in a game, that makes it impossible for others to deal with it, without spending real money themselves. What the OP just described isn't the case. It's a higher lvl player (with a guild backing him up), that is bankrolling a war. A pug may have a very difficult time trying to overcome that, but that's what happens when you pit an unorganized mob against an organized group. Tactics, strategy, and coordination will trump numbers 9/10 times.

  rykim86

Novice Member

Joined: 10/15/10
Posts: 238

7/23/12 5:56:43 AM#159

Gems will flood the market soon enough.

Not concerned.

  Angzt

Novice Member

Joined: 12/05/07
Posts: 233

"Growing old is compulsory, growing up is optional."(Bob Monkhouse)

7/23/12 5:59:51 AM#160

 

seriously... not sure ^^

 

you ran out of money because you went into pvp too early, or only. get some pve lvls and you have your money.

 

or, to put it simple:

 

"believe me, mike.. i calculated the odds of this working against the odds that i was doing something incredibly stupid… and i did it anyway!"

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