People should go and learn to read if "xp potions" are something new to them. It's been known for such a long time those items will be in and no those items don't make game p2w. It's only convenience especially with lvl scaling, the time it takes to lvl up without those items etc. People as always blow things out of proportion. I could say that gW2's cash shop is actually underwhelming. it's hard to find a lot of items you would want to buy every month.

Originally posted by Masa1

Players are the one who determine the price, aren't they? Gems can get you a lot of cool stuff, more inv space, faster leveling, etc. Why would anyone want to sell currency bought with real money with only a tiny amount of gold?

 

And how do you know it only takes 100 hours? I don't know anyone who has grinded from 1 to 80 yet... I bet that you're just making that up.

 

Who cares about lame structured PvP? I don't for sure.

Well, it takes about 90 minutes per level, once you hit level 20.  It takes maybe 10 hours, maybe a bit more to get to level 20.  (Many, many people have hit well over 30 in just the beta weekend, even with a normal sleep schedule.  LEvels about 20 average to about 90 minutes, though they start stretching out a bit past 30 because there wasn't any good places to level).  They've shown charts with a flat leveling curve.  From about 20-50 people have SEEN that flat leveling curve.  So like I said, unless they change something fairly drastically, we're not talking much more than 100 hours.

... and no, for 1 dollar, you buy 80 gems.  That price is set, and not by the players.  That means gems are worth slightly more than a single penny.  Nobody is going to trade hours and hours of grinding for a single penny.  :T  Not even literal slaves in China would grind that much.  If you're talking about hours of work for what you can buy for a dollar even (80 gems), people are just going to get a job, or ask their mom, or mug an old lady or something.

Originally posted by lilHeala
 

I think you need to do some thinking about what is "winning". Yes that player has some items sooner than you and may get better drops, but how does that affect you, and how does he win from other players?

Sure if your metagame is the economy or getting as many items as possible (that have little to no influence on the relative power a player has gameplay wise) then you may have an argument.

But as it stands it doesn't win anything in competetive pvp (no buffs working there, everyone maxed in gear and stats) and in WvW it will balance out because every server will have some people spending cash in the shop to get boosts so earn gold faster and can buy siege equipment faster and even if some servers have all the rich guys they'll be matched against eachother when rebalancing the matches against other servers to be relatively the same in power.

And I think it's laughable if you think someone can win over other players in a cooperative pve environment where there's no progresion raiding so also no server firsts to brag about.

Winning?

I sure would like to open those cool chests I get from mobs. It would feel like winning, I'm sure of it. I also love extra warehouse space and could use server transfers from time to time.

I also don't like if some asshat levels and earns everything faster than me, it would feel like I'm losing.

Sure all of that is just "PvE", but in WvW I don't really like that some asshat uses the most expensive siege weapons, while I can't use any because I haven't grinded enough. It almost feels like he is winning with real money.

Originally posted by Meowhead

Originally posted by Masa1

Players are the one who determine the price, aren't they? Gems can get you a lot of cool stuff, more inv space, faster leveling, etc. Why would anyone want to sell currency bought with real money with only a tiny amount of gold?

 

And how do you know it only takes 100 hours? I don't know anyone who has grinded from 1 to 80 yet... I bet that you're just making that up.

 

Who cares about lame structured PvP? I don't for sure.

Well, it takes about 90 minutes per level, once you hit level 20.  It takes maybe 10 hours, maybe a bit more to get to level 20.  (Many, many people have hit well over 30 in just the beta weekend, even with a normal sleep schedule.  LEvels about 20 average to about 90 minutes, though they start stretching out a bit past 30 because there wasn't any good places to level).  They've shown charts with a flat leveling curve.  From about 20-50 people have SEEN that flat leveling curve.  So like I said, unless they change something fairly drastically, we're not talking much more than 100 hours.

... and no, for 1 dollar, you buy 80 gems.  That price is set, and not by the players.  That means gems are worth slightly more than a single penny.  Nobody is going to trade hours and hours of grinding for a single penny.  :T  Not even literal slaves in China would grind that much.  If you're talking about hours of work for what you can buy for a dollar even (80 gems), people are just going to get a job, or ask their mom, or mug an old lady or something.

And what can you do with 80 gems? Tell me.. I bet it's not much. ;9

Originally posted by Masa1

 

Players are the one who determine the price, aren't they? Gems can get you a lot of cool stuff, more inv space, faster leveling, etc. Why would anyone want to sell currency bought with real money with only a tiny amount of gold?

 

And how do you know it only takes 100 hours? I don't know anyone who has grinded from 1 to 80 yet... I bet that you're just making that up.

 

Who cares about lame structured PvP? I don't for sure.

And why would many people want to buy something not necessarily needed?

This is the game to enjoy the journey, not rushing to the endgame.

And alot of fair-mined pvpers who want to win with skills cares about structured pvp. Sure you dont care.

Originally posted by grapevine
As long as they don't take it to the next level like they did with GW1 (ie. skill packs), then it should be fine.

You were able to unlock all skills through PvE and it didnt take you too long to do that. The PVP skill pack was only meant for lazy- or pure pvp players who didnt want to mess around with PvE.

regarding XP boost items:

As long as everyone is equal stats wise, everything is allright. Who cares about XP boost when you get instantly boosted to max lvl, if you wish to do PvP?

Who cares about PvPxp boost? Showoffs who want to be ahead of all in PvPlvls will buy it, but thats it. You dont get any advantages, since you already have a maxed out weapon AND armor.

People who got enough time, will reach everything GW2 has to offer.

People who dont have time (family/job), will also be able to get everything, but they have to pay for it.

From my point of view, its a fair deal.

Originally posted by sapheroith

Originally posted by Masa1

 

Players are the one who determine the price, aren't they? Gems can get you a lot of cool stuff, more inv space, faster leveling, etc. Why would anyone want to sell currency bought with real money with only a tiny amount of gold?

 

And how do you know it only takes 100 hours? I don't know anyone who has grinded from 1 to 80 yet... I bet that you're just making that up.

 

Who cares about lame structured PvP? I don't for sure.

And why would many people want to buy something not necessarily needed?

This is the game to enjoy the journey, not rushing to the endgame.

And alot of fair-mined pvpers who want to win with skills cares about structured pvp. Sure you dont care.

I literally need extra inv space and server transfers, how can you say that they're not necessarily needed?

So when defending cash shop game suddenly becomes a journey and exp boost is completely useless?

It will cross the line if they introduce items that gives them a power or skill advantage over others, such as powerful skills or rare weapons.

Originally posted by Masa1

And what can you do with 80 gems? Tell me.. I bet it's not much. ;9

Not as much as you can buy with in game currencies like gold and karma! 

Honestly, somebody with spare time is going to be at a huge advantage vs. somebody with spare money.  There's so much cool stuff you can get IN game.

... and if you think bank space and more bag slots are necessary, that's all the proof I need to know you either haven't played the game, or are really horribly bad at it.

I've played with 7 different people, and none of us have ever... EVER had a moment where we had to run back to bank for storage.  Over 30 levels.  Some of us never even bothered to get bags past the 4 and 5 slot bags you earn as rewards in-game without even bothering to craft. :(

Oh, and 80 gems can get you a minor boost.  ... but that's one dollar, and you can do the boost worth of stuff by spending an extra 30 minutes (A boost is an hour and an additional 50%, generally).  So that means only the stupidest AND most desperate of people would trade 30 minutes of work for LESS than 80 gems.  (You'd actually have to be both simultaneously to do that trade. :(  A smart person wouldn't do it, and a non-desperate person wouldn't either).

The power of math.  :T

Originally posted by Meowhead

Originally posted by Masa1

And what can you do with 80 gems? Tell me.. I bet it's not much. ;9

Not as much as you can buy with in game currencies like gold and karma! 

Honestly, somebody with spare time is going to be at a huge advantage vs. somebody with spare money.  There's so much cool stuff you can get IN game.

... and if you think bank space and more bag slots are necessary, that's all the proof I need to know you either haven't played the game, or are really horribly bad at it.

I've played with 7 different people, and none of us have ever... EVER had a moment where we had to run back to bank for storage.  Over 30 levels.  Some of us never even bothered to get bags past the 4 and 5 slot bags you earn as rewards in-game without even bothering to craft. :(

Oh, and 80 gems can get you a minor boost.  ... but that's one dollar, and you can do the boost worth of stuff by spending an extra 30 minutes (A boost is an hour and an additional 50%, generally).  So that means only the stupidest AND most desperate of people would trade 30 minutes of work for LESS than 80 gems.  (You'd actually have to be both simultaneously to do that trade. :(  A smart person wouldn't do it, and a non-desperate person wouldn't either).

The power of math.  :T

I don't see any math, I only see dumb responses.

Originally posted by Masa1

Originally posted by lilHeala
 

I think you need to do some thinking about what is "winning". Yes that player has some items sooner than you and may get better drops, but how does that affect you, and how does he win from other players?

Sure if your metagame is the economy or getting as many items as possible (that have little to no influence on the relative power a player has gameplay wise) then you may have an argument.

But as it stands it doesn't win anything in competetive pvp (no buffs working there, everyone maxed in gear and stats) and in WvW it will balance out because every server will have some people spending cash in the shop to get boosts so earn gold faster and can buy siege equipment faster and even if some servers have all the rich guys they'll be matched against eachother when rebalancing the matches against other servers to be relatively the same in power.

And I think it's laughable if you think someone can win over other players in a cooperative pve environment where there's no progresion raiding so also no server firsts to brag about.

Winning?

 

I sure would like to open those cool chests I get from mobs. It would feel like winning, I'm sure of it. I also love extra warehouse space and could use server transfers from time to time.

 

I also don't like if some asshat levels and earns everything faster than me, it would feel like I'm losing.

 

Sure all of that is just "PvE", but in WvW I don't really like that some asshat uses the most expensive siege weapons, while I can't use any because I haven't grinded enough. It almost feels like he is winning with real money.

Those are not winning as there's no competition in those game elements else there would for example be a scoreboard for that to keep tracking of each players leveling and currency earning progression curves. Opening a chest winning? that's being able to unlock a reward which isn't winning as there's no competition, just a reward.

Just an advice you might feel happier if you focus more on your own gaming experience instead of looking at and being jealous of others. Bet you have a hard time in life because your neighbour has a porsche and your driving a volkswagen.

Originally posted by Masa1

I don't see any math, I only see dumb responses.

Not a productive answer.  Look, it's simple.

Look at ANY boost in the game.  They all work with this formula "For one hour, have 50% better chance", more or less.

That means in general (Crafting being the only notable exception, since it's also limited by materials), any boost is worth literally 30 minutes of time.  The two are interchangeable.  (Actually, 30 minutes of time is better, because it gives you 30 minutes more of experience AND dropped items AND karma, but let's keep this simple for you).  Boosts cost around 100 (I believe somewhat more).

That means anybody paying more than 30 minutes of work for 100 gems for the purpose of boosts is not very good at looking at math.

The bag slot thing WOULD be an issue.. .if it wasn't for the fact that GW2 is the most friendly game I've ever seen for keeping a clean inventory.  I left my bank tonight and ran around non-stop without going back to the city or stopping at a bank for literally hours (From 9pm to 4:00 am) , and how many items were in my 52 slots after that?  Exactly 11.  (2 biscuits I was keeping on me because I like biscuits, a spare pickaxe, a salvage kit, and 8 extra weapons in my bag for swapping).  Out of 52.  After hours.  Without going to the bank or teleporting or leaving the level 15-25 adventuring area.

Look, if you don't know anything about the game, it means you're not going to be able to make meaningful responses to how the cash shop actually works. :)

Originally posted by grapevine
GW1 skill packs cover both PvE and PvP.

No, they don't. Skill packs are useful only in PvP.  The skill packs were there for people who didn't want to play the PvE. Did you also realise that you can only buy the skills packs WITHOUT buying the actual game and you could play PvP? Also GW1 was all about player skill. I can guarantee you that even if you had all the skills unlocked you will still be quite useless in GvG unless you have a lot of experience.

I know that the notion that PvE is not the centre of the world is very hard to swallow for some of the more traditional MMO players but that is the case. GW1 had one of the best PvP systems I've ever seen in a game. I am a bit sceptical that GW2 will give us the same varied and super skill focused experience that GW1 did.

Originally posted by Masa1

Originally posted by sapheroith

Originally posted by Masa1

 

Players are the one who determine the price, aren't they? Gems can get you a lot of cool stuff, more inv space, faster leveling, etc. Why would anyone want to sell currency bought with real money with only a tiny amount of gold?

 

And how do you know it only takes 100 hours? I don't know anyone who has grinded from 1 to 80 yet... I bet that you're just making that up.

 

Who cares about lame structured PvP? I don't for sure.

And why would many people want to buy something not necessarily needed?

This is the game to enjoy the journey, not rushing to the endgame.

And alot of fair-mined pvpers who want to win with skills cares about structured pvp. Sure you dont care.

I literally need extra inv space and server transfers, how can you say that they're not necessarily needed?

 

So when defending cash shop game suddenly becomes a journey and exp boost is completely useless?

I am sorry, YOU need extra space and transfer = they are necessarily needed? There are millions more people playing this game. and not everyone need this stuff.

GW2 have no traditional endgames, so tell me how useful exp booster is when there is no need to rush to max level.

Originally posted by lilHeala

Originally posted by Masa1

Originally posted by lilHeala
 

I think you need to do some thinking about what is "winning". Yes that player has some items sooner than you and may get better drops, but how does that affect you, and how does he win from other players?

Sure if your metagame is the economy or getting as many items as possible (that have little to no influence on the relative power a player has gameplay wise) then you may have an argument.

But as it stands it doesn't win anything in competetive pvp (no buffs working there, everyone maxed in gear and stats) and in WvW it will balance out because every server will have some people spending cash in the shop to get boosts so earn gold faster and can buy siege equipment faster and even if some servers have all the rich guys they'll be matched against eachother when rebalancing the matches against other servers to be relatively the same in power.

And I think it's laughable if you think someone can win over other players in a cooperative pve environment where there's no progresion raiding so also no server firsts to brag about.

Winning?

 

I sure would like to open those cool chests I get from mobs. It would feel like winning, I'm sure of it. I also love extra warehouse space and could use server transfers from time to time.

 

I also don't like if some asshat levels and earns everything faster than me, it would feel like I'm losing.

 

Sure all of that is just "PvE", but in WvW I don't really like that some asshat uses the most expensive siege weapons, while I can't use any because I haven't grinded enough. It almost feels like he is winning with real money.

Those are not winning as there's no competition in those game elements else there would for example be a scoreboard for that to keep tracking of each players leveling and currency earning progression curves. Opening a chest winning? that's being able to unlock a reward which isn't winning as there's no competition, just a reward.

Just an advice you might feel happier if you focus more on your own gaming experience instead of looking at and being jealous of others. Bet you have a hard time in life because your neighbour has a porsche and your driving a volkswagen.

A Porsche is just a VW for people who aren't secure with themselves :D

Originally posted by AzurePrower

At first it was all Guild Wars 2 is only buy to play! People buying copies will be able to cover the costs of a persistent server instead of instanced game play.

 

Then the inevitable cash shop arrived. People are defending it saying 'it's just cosmetic items' and 'helps pay the costs of running a persistent server'.

 

Then the whole gems debacle. 'It still doesn't effect game play all that much and costs too much to get ahead of any one.'

Now paying for 'time-saving' items. People are still clinging to 'it's not pay to win. This is okay!'

 

Where do people draw the line at? I mean, I was looking forward to Guild Wars 2 as the next person. How ever this same thing was present with Blizzard and World of Warcraft. Some thing I didn't like then and especially now since I saw the direction it was heading.

 

Where are people going to put their foot down for Guild Wars 2 or will they keep making excuses whilst they keep taking advantage of milking players for every dollar they can get?

 

TL;DR:

Buy to play -> Cosmetic item cash shop -> gems -> Time-saving items -> (What next?)

ArenaNet have used exactly the same model in GW1.

The entire way that GW2 is designed is to prevent gear advantages and level the playing field. So why on earth do people think this will lead to 'pay to win'?  It won't. ArenaNet likes its games to be eSport-ish. So they wont be ruining that reputation by putting in items that give characters an advantage in PvP.

I guess people don't remember the first 3 or 4 years of GvG in GW1. There were 1 million dollar prize tournaments. So yeas, they do eSPORTS.

Originally posted by ste2000

Originally posted by grapevine
As long as they don't take it to the next level like they did with GW1 (ie. skill packs), then it should be fine.

They will.

If their did it for their first game, what makes you think they won't do it for the sequel?

Uh because:

a) There are much fewer skills in GW2 and they are much easier to obtain.

b) When you level up to 80 for PvP you gain access to all skills anyway.

Also, the skill packs in GW1 were not pay to win. Pay to win means you get an advantage that cannot be matched by a player who doesnt pay. In fact skills were very easy to obtain in GW1. It took only a few days to progress through the main storyline and unlock 90% of the skills for your profession combo. Or you could skip that and unlock the 8 skills you want to use for your build with a few hours of PvP.

The skill packs were just a convenience item for people who did not want to play the game properly to unlock skills. If players are too lazy to unlock stuff themselves and want to send ArenaNet their money to fund the development of the game, why should I care?

Originally posted by AzurePrower

At first it was all Guild Wars 2 is only buy to play! People buying copies will be able to cover the costs of a persistent server instead of instanced game play.

 

Then the inevitable cash shop arrived. People are defending it saying 'it's just cosmetic items' and 'helps pay the costs of running a persistent server'.

 

Then the whole gems debacle. 'It still doesn't effect game play all that much and costs too much to get ahead of any one.'

Now paying for 'time-saving' items. People are still clinging to 'it's not pay to win. This is okay!'

 

Where do people draw the line at? I mean, I was looking forward to Guild Wars 2 as the next person. How ever this same thing was present with Blizzard and World of Warcraft. Some thing I didn't like then and especially now since I saw the direction it was heading.

 

Where are people going to put their foot down for Guild Wars 2 or will they keep making excuses whilst they keep taking advantage of milking players for every dollar they can get?

 

TL;DR:

Buy to play -> Cosmetic item cash shop -> gems -> Time-saving items -> (What next?)

What exactly do you win?

Originally posted by Istavaan

 

What exactly do you win?

If we take the 'XP-Potions' as an example, and push it to the extreme, what's the difference of you 'buying a max level char' and using 'XP potions'?

I try to avoid games that are on 'slippery slopes' as they tend to slide once they are on the slope but that's just me. vOv.