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Guild Wars 2

Guild Wars 2 

General Discussion  » The bad game designs in GW2

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36 posts found
  Lobotomist

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/20/07
Posts: 4884

I got so much trouble on my mind Refuse to lose.

 
OP  7/22/12 2:40:06 AM#1

This is not critic to Arenanet , which i give all kudos too - for going and trying something really new in MMO genre.

The game I feel will be huge hit and everyone will play it.

Alas nothing is perfect - and here are few things - i think  came over quite poorly.

 

1. Dense packed mobs on maps.

This is best known as LOTRO(Evendim) syndrom. Namely in LOTRO they tried to slow player movement trough area By putting a boar (lol , or any other mob) every few feet. Your move was a crawl , because you had to fight constantly. It

turned to be tedious. And after a while Turbine made mobs less dense.

Unfortunatley , i feel GW2 has done the same. Maps feel crazily packed by mobs, which soon turns into tedium.

Especially when you count next step ...

2. No safe spot.

This is known as Tabula Rasa syndrom. Namely TR was very dynamic game , and mobs could invade any place anytime. This lead to fact that there was no place to AFK , rest , take a breath , even to type message. Without being attacked.

Unfortunately same goes for GW2. I died 2 times while trying to type answer in chat. And every time i had to go to take a leak. No mather how well hidden was a resting spot i chose (i am talking outside of towns...although even those are not perfectly safe)

New dynamic games suffer from this (Rift included). But like in TR i feel its to much pressure. And its unfun. You need moments of calm.

3. Camera FOV.

Field of view. Something is just wrong with it. Camera is placed to low. Making your character stand almost in middle of screen. And not in low middle part. You need to zoom out in order to have good view around you.

Also camera rotation is wierd....

I am sure its something you get used to fast. But i dont know why they had to change the usual point of view...

4. Themepark Feel omega.

With such pack filled maps. I am afraid that GW2 feels more theme park than king of themeparks.

Certanly not their fault for giving us tons of content. But thats the feel... ;)

 

 

So there you go.

Some quirks , in my oppinion.

 

All in all - the game is great. And it will be tons of fun.

If anything - its worth its price.

See you in game ;)

 

 

  cronius77

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/26/12
Posts: 1313

7/22/12 2:47:58 AM#2

agree with you totally on the camera it sucks if you are AOE in WvW big time , so tired of grass being my LOS.

Dense backs of mobs are not really everywhere maybe the zone youre in but a lot of the world is pretty open and you can go for a very long time without agroing anything.

The no safe spot thing is great , when rift first released and you were one of the first on your shard to get to the area's ahead of players a lot of time there was no safe spot and you had to fight to take it back. At least in GW2 there isnt quest hubs to make you progress slower waiting on npcs to respawn so I cant see this as an issue but more excitement to the game.

Themepark its kinda always been listed as a themepark , i dont think you will find a soul that will argue it as anywhat a sandbox. You have levels and quests in the form of DE's its always going to remain a themepark . You will either love the DE's or hate em but thats the core design.

Mesmer is talked about , that and engineer are getting love from what i recall reading as they are the two classes most complained about.

  SkullyWoods

Novice Member

Joined: 6/14/12
Posts: 184

If victory is sweet, virtual victory is not Sweet'n Low

7/22/12 2:53:22 AM#3
Originally posted by Lobotomist

5. Mesmer is bad.

Just my personal remark. But as big fan of mesmer (GW1). I feel that in GW2 they really dropped the ball.

Elementalist is everything mesmer is x4. Really the class is near useless - and certanly not as amazingly intricate as GW1 was.

I am still going to play it as my main. But just for nostalgia.

 

 

 

 

Not trying to downplay your opinion, but care to ellaborate? From what I can see the Mesmer looks very promising in PvP simply for the fact that a you can literally cause a great deal of confusion for your opponent. I can see players using Mesmers in very advantageous fashion on the battlefield.

#TeamVainlash
Why did Marceline's dad eat her fries? I mean...cause she bought them and they were hers...

  Celcius

Novice Member

Joined: 7/20/04
Posts: 949

7/22/12 2:58:34 AM#4

I agree with 1 and 2.

1)The mobs are a bit packed in certain areas, but I do feel like once you get all the waypoints and have more ways around the packs it does help alot. But this would not be necessary if they were slightly less packed in the first place. This, honestly, has been a common problem in alot of MMOs lately. Not sure why it has only really cropped up more recently. I don't recall WoW even having issues with it. It may be a pacing thing, but this is something that should be changed in this game. (if not all games with this problem)

2) Yeah, this can be a problem sometimes. I mean in general it is not really an issue if you are actively playing the game. It can be frustrating if you are trying to just casually play a bit while watching a tv show or eating something though. Maybe a friend calls you ect, it can be annoying having to be half afk or afk for a minute and end up dead. Not sure how they can fix this one, but I can live with it. There are some safe spots if you get creative, but typically you won't want to do that.

3) I can see where you are coming from with the camera, but it has not really bothered me.

4) I see your point, but I am not sure I think its really a bad thing. I mean, the most they can really do is space out the events a bit and make people hunt them more. I really don't think that meshes well with how they designed the game though. (Able to play casually,with your friends,ect) This seems like it sort of comes with the territory.

5) You brought up some good topics, but man I think hating on a class is just too opinionated at this point. I know its only a month away but class balance can change ALOT in the last month of a beta. Plus, this really is, like you said, more of an opinion. 

  Lobotomist

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/20/07
Posts: 4884

I got so much trouble on my mind Refuse to lose.

 
OP  7/22/12 3:10:48 AM#5
Originally posted by SkullyWoods
Originally posted by Lobotomist

5. Mesmer is bad.

Just my personal remark. But as big fan of mesmer (GW1). I feel that in GW2 they really dropped the ball.

Elementalist is everything mesmer is x4. Really the class is near useless - and certanly not as amazingly intricate as GW1 was.

I am still going to play it as my main. But just for nostalgia.

 

 

 

 

Not trying to downplay your opinion, but care to ellaborate? From what I can see the Mesmer looks very promising in PvP simply for the fact that a you can literally cause a great deal of confusion for your opponent. I can see players using Mesmers in very advantageous fashion on the battlefield.


I dont know if you had a chance of playing GW1 mesmer ?

Its main ability was to put kind of enchantments that punish player for doing something. Like for example if you cast you lose all mana. Or if you attack , your attack hurts yourself. Or you get burst of speed but after that you are cripled...etc

Hundreds of tricks, that made mesmer unpredictable and being able to literally shut down a player in worst moment.

 

Now we have one trick pony.

Mirror Images. That die in second from AOE attack. And take a second for smart player to indentify.

Except of that - mesmer has poor damage - and apsolutely 0 AOE ability.

He is no much help for a team either.

  Lobotomist

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/20/07
Posts: 4884

I got so much trouble on my mind Refuse to lose.

 
OP  7/22/12 3:14:15 AM#6
Originally posted by Celcius

5) You brought up some good topics, but man I think hating on a class is just too opinionated at this point. I know its only a month away but class balance can change ALOT in the last month of a beta. Plus, this really is, like you said, more of an opinion. 

Yea. Its more my personall disapointment with the class.

And it will perhaps change in time. I will remove it. It does not fit the topic

  SkullyWoods

Novice Member

Joined: 6/14/12
Posts: 184

If victory is sweet, virtual victory is not Sweet'n Low

7/22/12 3:18:22 AM#7
Originally posted by Lobotomist
Originally posted by SkullyWoods
Originally posted by Lobotomist

5. Mesmer is bad.

Just my personal remark. But as big fan of mesmer (GW1). I feel that in GW2 they really dropped the ball.

Elementalist is everything mesmer is x4. Really the class is near useless - and certanly not as amazingly intricate as GW1 was.

I am still going to play it as my main. But just for nostalgia.

 

 

 

 

Not trying to downplay your opinion, but care to ellaborate? From what I can see the Mesmer looks very promising in PvP simply for the fact that a you can literally cause a great deal of confusion for your opponent. I can see players using Mesmers in very advantageous fashion on the battlefield.


I dont know if you had a chance of playing GW1 mesmer ?

Its main ability was to put kind of enchantments that punish player for doing something. Like for example if you cast you lose all mana. Or if you attack , your attack hurts yourself. Or you get burst of speed but after that you are cripled...etc

Hundreds of tricks, that made mesmer unpredictable and being able to literally shut down a player in worst moment.

 

Now we have one trick pony.

Mirror Images. That die in second from AOE attack. And take a second for smart player to indentify.

Except of that - mesmer has poor damage - and apsolutely 0 AOE ability.

He is no much help for a team either.

No didn't get a chance to play GW1 mesmer. I haven't had a chance to play the betas either so I'll have to take your word for it until I try it out. There does seem to be a considerable amount of disappointment with the mesmer. I assumed the illusions and dopplegangers would cause more of a problem for opponents but if they are as easily identifiable and disposable as you claim then I can see reason for disappointment.

#TeamVainlash
Why did Marceline's dad eat her fries? I mean...cause she bought them and they were hers...

  Siphaed

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/17/08
Posts: 796

7/22/12 3:31:01 AM#8
Originally posted by Lobotomist

This is not critic to Arenanet , which i give all kudos too - for going and trying something really new in MMO genre.

The game I feel will be huge hit and everyone will play it.

Alas nothing is perfect - and here are few things - i think  came over quite poorly.

 

1. Dense packed mobs on maps.

This is best known as LOTRO(Evendim) syndrom. Namely in LOTRO they tried to slow player movement trough area By putting a boar (lol , or any other mob) every few feet. Your move was a crawl , because you had to fight constantly. It

turned to be tedious. And after a while Turbine made mobs less dense.

Unfortunatley , i feel GW2 has done the same. Maps feel crazily packed by mobs, which soon turns into tedium.

Especially when you count next step ...

2. No safe spot.

This is known as Tabula Rasa syndrom. Namely TR was very dynamic game , and mobs could invade any place anytime. This lead to fact that there was no place to AFK , rest , take a breath , even to type message. Without being attacked.

Unfortunately same goes for GW2. I died 2 times while trying to type answer in chat. And every time i had to go to take a leak. No mather how well hidden was a resting spot i chose (i am talking outside of towns...although even those are not perfectly safe)

New dynamic games suffer from this (Rift included). But like in TR i feel its to much pressure. And its unfun. You need moments of calm.

3. Camera FOV.

Field of view. Something is just wrong with it. amera is placed to low. Making your character stand almost in middle of screen. And not in low middle part. You need to zoom out in order to have good view around you.

Also camera rotation is wierd....

I am sure its something you get used to fast. But i dont know why they had to change the usual point of view...

4. Themepark Feel omega.

With such pack filled maps. I am afraid that GW2 feels more theme park than king of themeparks.

Certanly not their fault for giving us tons of content. But thats the feel... ;)

5. Mesmer is bad.

Just my personal remark. But as big fan of mesmer (GW1). I feel that in GW2 they really dropped the ball.

Elementalist is everything mesmer is x4. Really the class is near useless - and certanly not as amazingly intricate as GW1 was.

I am still going to play it as my main. But just for nostalgia.

 

So there you go.

Some quirks , in my oppinion.

 

All in all - the game is great. And it will be tons of fun.

If anything - its worth its price.

See you in game ;)

 

 

1) You do realize that many of the mobs are neutral and will not attack you unless you provoke them.  I mean, if you're standing in a field of Moa, they're not going to eat you unless you poke at them.  It's not as mob heavy or redundant as WoW or Warhammer ever was, is, or will be.  Only during Dynamic Events do the mobs get dense, but after that it's light and med loads of them only.

 

2) There are plenty of safe places in the game.  Most of the major encampments are great places to "AFK" at without too much fuse unless there's some major invasion thing that's missed by players and a town gets overrun.   Even then, AFKing on a high rock is possible as mobs in the area usually cannot reach them (for example, the floating potato farm in the Asura starting area, nothing can get up there save for players and the NPC farmer).

 

3) The camer is hit or miss.  I'd prefer a First-Person-View to be optional on the zoom in, but that's all I need.  The camer itself is in nice position to be visible in a sort of 360 around your character.    It's a bit troubling, but not completey a major issue.

 

4)  What's considered a "themepark" and what's not?  The WvWvW can be considered an open-world game of PvP, nothing really themepark about it.  The PvE obviously is, because progression through PvE is a single line direction of 1-?? leveling.  This is normal in ANY PvE game, there's no exceptions.   And the sPvP is again a straight up eSport with everyone having the same gear and weapons, it's just a matter of skill usage (similar to that of League of Legends).

 

    And, the PvE content in this game is HUGE, have you been to any of the 1-15 zones and ran through most of it exploring?  ya, those are so big, they're by far the largest starting zones I've seen in any other MMORPG out there. The first is triple the size of Rift's or WoW's starter zones.

 

5) Haven't played Mesmer, but got my rear handed to me by a few of them.  They are crazy insane and I can't tell which to target when there's 3 surrounding me by only really one.  Their lockdown on player mentality is mind bending.

  Homitu

Novice Member

Joined: 10/01/09
Posts: 2045

7/22/12 3:56:40 AM#9

1) I can agree with the dense mobs and add that they can also respawn way too fast in some locations.  I've been in caves where mobs were respawning on top of me no sooner than 40 seconds after I killed them and before I could even get past the next wave.  

2) I disagree with the no safe zone assertion.  I've been able to find a safe place to afk whenever I wanted.  I also want to feel some sense of danger in the oper wilderness.  I shouldn't be able to just relax anywhere.  

3) The camera definitely does have some problems, though nothing approaching game breaking.  I can never seem to see everything I want to, and panning the camera has an ever-so-slight delay that can get annoying.  

4) Themepark isn't a derogatory term when pertaining to MMOs :p  Many, in fact most, players want this.  Perhaps you may not prefer this branch of the genre, but that by no means makes it "bad game design." 

  Distaste

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/03/06
Posts: 668

7/22/12 3:56:44 AM#10
Originally posted by Lobotomist

This is not critic to Arenanet , which i give all kudos too - for going and trying something really new in MMO genre.

The game I feel will be huge hit and everyone will play it.

Alas nothing is perfect - and here are few things - i think  came over quite poorly.

 

1. Dense packed mobs on maps.

This is best known as LOTRO(Evendim) syndrom. Namely in LOTRO they tried to slow player movement trough area By putting a boar (lol , or any other mob) every few feet. Your move was a crawl , because you had to fight constantly. It

turned to be tedious. And after a while Turbine made mobs less dense.

Unfortunatley , i feel GW2 has done the same. Maps feel crazily packed by mobs, which soon turns into tedium.

Especially when you count next step ...

2. No safe spot.

This is known as Tabula Rasa syndrom. Namely TR was very dynamic game , and mobs could invade any place anytime. This lead to fact that there was no place to AFK , rest , take a breath , even to type message. Without being attacked.

Unfortunately same goes for GW2. I died 2 times while trying to type answer in chat. And every time i had to go to take a leak. No mather how well hidden was a resting spot i chose (i am talking outside of towns...although even those are not perfectly safe)

New dynamic games suffer from this (Rift included). But like in TR i feel its to much pressure. And its unfun. You need moments of calm.

3. Camera FOV.

Field of view. Something is just wrong with it. Camera is placed to low. Making your character stand almost in middle of screen. And not in low middle part. You need to zoom out in order to have good view around you.

Also camera rotation is wierd....

I am sure its something you get used to fast. But i dont know why they had to change the usual point of view...

4. Themepark Feel omega.

With such pack filled maps. I am afraid that GW2 feels more theme park than king of themeparks.

Certanly not their fault for giving us tons of content. But thats the feel... ;)

 

1. What area are you in?  Most of the places I've been(Charr, Sylvani, Norn) are fairly open and mob density is perfect. Not so many that you're overwhelmed but not so few that you're spending a ton of time hunting them down. There are places where mob density increases but usually they are area's that should be dense. In an enemy stronghold there should be lots of enemies. Unless of course you're underlevel at which point you'll be aggroing things from a mile away. So I disagree completely here.

 

2. What? How could you not find "safe" spots. I've AFKed while making dinner and didn't die. I've taken numberous bathroom breaks and didn't suffer a single hit. It seriously is not hard to find spots where mobs don't spawn and won't attack. Heck an almost foolproof way is to just take a waypoint and afk there. Even AFKing at the small towns you're good for at least 30mins unless it is already under attack. My conclusion, you must be just walking into hostile territory and afking.

 

3. Yeah, it's wonky.

 

4. That is a good thing, the problem with other themepark games is they force you to ride the rides. GW2 is a hassle free themepark where you have lots of freedom.

  VirgoThree

Tipster

Joined: 12/09/03
Posts: 1222

FFXIV:ARR, Malboro Server, Scarlet Raven

7/22/12 4:07:25 AM#11

I've found plenty of safe areas in the Norn and Asura starter areas. If anything it was a bit sparse in some areas. So I can't really see the packed mob issue. Although I will concede to the fact that I haven't seen all areas so it could truly be an issue elsewhere.

However with that said, I think I've just become used to the way themeparks pack em in, heck EQ had quite a few areas that were just jammed pack with mobs. I've become rather masterful at dodging between aggro zones over the years :) I sometimes make it into a mini game unto itself to dodge mob aggro ranges in MMOs lol.

As for the camera view I remember it being nicer on my Norn but that could just be because of their height. I've been playing Asura abit this weekend and I do agree that the camera FoV for them at least is a bit weird, but I am rather short. Not a biggie, but over the years I get the impression I'm much more tolerable then the forum community on issues. Although I will acknowledge it could be a potential issue for many.

  grapevine

Novice Member

Joined: 12/17/04
Posts: 1943

7/22/12 4:10:58 AM#12
OP, you also should add that melee, and in part range, combat is unavoidably aoe based. Yes it's makes positioning important, as to not aggro some innocent frog or deer, but it's kind of silly ones character is just waving weapons around aimlessly with no apparent skill.
  Tonin109

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/15/12
Posts: 202

Our Opinion May Differ

7/22/12 4:17:26 AM#13

Mesmers can daze,blind,debuff, has aoe (if you use staff) i see this class useful and will play it as my main

you must be used to it and find how to play a mesmer in GW2 like for GW1 i had to learn how to play mesmer because its not a common class i would say its unique among all the mmo

  BeansnBread

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/19/06
Posts: 5565

7/22/12 4:25:24 AM#14
Originally posted by grapevine
OP, you also should add that melee, and in part range, combat is unavoidably aoe based. Yes it's makes positioning important, as to not aggro some innocent frog or deer, but it's kind of silly ones character is just waving weapons around aimlessly with no apparent skill.

The way you say it makes it a little hard for me to understand, but I think you are saying you would prefer single target melee attacks instead of the short frontal cone type attacks that are in the game right now.

 

I think one of the things that makes combat feel a bit more natural in this game is the ability to press a skill and have it go off whether or not an enemy is targeted (or in range). I know TSW and TERA have both gone the same direction as GW2 in this regard and I have to say that I prefer it. In order to get what you describe (hit a single target at a time) you would have to have the enemy targeted ala WoW. 

 

In my opinion it's not bad game design. It's a preference based design. I think a lot of people like it. Obviously you are not one of those people, but to call the preference a bad design decision is disingenuous.

SWTOR is the greatest mmo ever!

  ste2000

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/28/04
Posts: 4736

7/22/12 4:26:20 AM#15

My only concern is that GW2 feels too Themepark, as if all the features were thrown in a blender and mixed together without too much thought

But I was expecting that, that's why I am not too hyped about it

I am waiting for Archeage to have the virtual world feel I am looking for

 

I agree with the OP, GW2 will be successful, because it offers a bit of everything although not excelling in anything (A bit like WOW).

Best Themepark around, I will play it until Archeage comes around.

  ZombieKen

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/30/10
Posts: 4410

Zombie - Dead but still moving.

7/22/12 4:26:27 AM#16

It's possible that spawn density is dynamic, tied to a zone's player population.  It might have been that many player characters were present.

MSOTSG with PPE : Massively Single-player Online Task-driven Storyline Game with Purchasable Performance Enhancements *grin*

  seridan

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/26/12
Posts: 1212

7/22/12 4:29:20 AM#17
Originally posted by Lobotomist

 

1. Dense packed mobs on maps.

2. No safe spot.

3. Camera FOV.

4. Themepark Feel omega.

 

 

1. Depends on location, more often mobs don't help each other because they are further away. Except for dynamic events and monster lairs (like centaur camps) mob populations aren't very dense. The Charr zone is filled with mobs though, either ghosts, elementals, flame legion, harpies or grawl, I found the Charr zones to be the most dense zones. Asura zone was the least dense and human area was so-so depending on location

2. I know what you mean. Seeing on the map the merchants/repair npc and thinking that is a safe spot, then being negately surprised when I find myself dead.... However there are some nice safe spots, first near heart npcs, there is rarely a monster near them, except for rare cases they are away of danger, so camping near the heart is a good place to rest. Also there aren't any mobs near vistas, although they are harder to reach

3. Camera FOV makes dodging easier, more up close and personal, but it makes ground-based AOE attacks hard to aim. I really wish they had more options for the camera. There was talk for 1st person mode or even a more "proper" 3rd person look, what happened to those I wonder

Block the trolls, don't answer them, so we can remove the garbage from these forums

  Zezda

Novice Member

Joined: 2/27/09
Posts: 707

7/22/12 4:36:29 AM#18

I'll answer as honestly as I can in response to this thread because unlike all the others trolling you are clearly not.

For 1)

There are some areas with more mobs than others, yes. Often there can be mobs on the way while exploring caves etc. A lot of the mobs are also placed to overlap with the dynamic events, so at the lumber mill in queensdale there are wasps which are involved in a few dynamic events but they are also there without any events running.

I like the level of mobs in the world. I don't want them to only show up when events are running. The one thing I disliked was that sometimes the respawn on the mobs was way to quick in some areas. I haven't got back to many of them to see if that has been fixed or not but I have to assume it would be as it's quite easy for QA to pick up compared to other aspects of the game.

 

2)

I have never died when AFK'ing. Not going to say anything other than be carefull of where you are when you walk away from the keyboard. It might be inconvenient to run around a little longer but I would rather have a dynamic world than be able to afk wherever I like without dying.

3)

Yeah they could maybe move the position of the camera so that it is just above the character but for me personally It has not been an issue at all. Eyefinity seemed to work ok as well aside from the usual suspects like character creation and cutscenes. If enough people ask them to change the camera or leave an option then they will do so. That's one of the things I quite like about ArenaNet is that they listen to their players.

4)

It certainly doesn't play like any themepark I have ever played. I also think it's really the first themepark based title to really push that particular subset of the genre forward in a long time.

  Lobotomist

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/20/07
Posts: 4884

I got so much trouble on my mind Refuse to lose.

 
OP  7/22/12 4:43:35 AM#19
Originally posted by XAPGames

It's possible that spawn density is dynamic, tied to a zone's player population.  It might have been that many player characters were present.

I certanly hope so. That would be great design idea.

  Grahor

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/08/11
Posts: 854

7/22/12 5:38:45 AM#20
Originally posted by Lobotomist
Originally posted by XAPGames

It's possible that spawn density is dynamic, tied to a zone's player population.  It might have been that many player characters were present.

I certanly hope so. That would be great design idea.

Not a chance. It would be great, but I've lost all hope that mmorpg designers will do it. Excessive density of mobs and fast respawn is why (amongst other reasons, but those were the final straw) I've quit, for example, Fallen Earth. Nothing bugs me more than throngs of trash mobs and respaw on-top-of-me.

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