The only thing I hate more than every MMO now coming with built in maps, is the built in GPS system that tells you at all times exactly where you are on the map.  I long for the days of my folder of printouts from eqatlas of course, but realize that will never again be.  So, how about compromise.

What does the modern day "give me my trophy and loot right now for free" players think of a cartography trade skill?  There would be maps in game, but they wouldn't be handed out for free and by default.  Players would be responsible for creating the maps in game.  Not necessarily "drawing them", but similar to some trade skill systems where you put stuff in the blackbox, press combine, and get a map out of the blackbox.  At low levels and with poor materials, you may at best get the outline of the zone.  A little more time and effort put in, and you can see the mountain range or river cutting across the zone.  At high end level and with the best of materials, a full map with landmarks noted. 

Dungeon maps would be avabile for crafting too, but these would be even harder and rarer than overworld maps.

The maps would be available for trade or sell.  Ideally, the high end ones would be near impossible to achieve, allowing the best cartographers to earn a reputation and a profit.

Hopefully, GPS wouldn't be available ever.  But I guess a combine could allow for that as well.

Back when I was a kid we drew our own maps by hand on torn off sheets of dot matrix printer paper.  =P

I'd be fine with a catrography skill where you have to completely explore the region in order to produce a map of it, and depending on skill level you could add more detail and information to your maps like type of monsters in an areaa, locations of treasure chests, abundant resources, etc.

I don't mind the coordinate system being kept in place -- sometimes you miss things because you don't know quite exactly what you're looking for and another player giving you coordinates can solve a lot of unnecessary frustration in a game -- but I would ditch the quest objective indicators.  Figure out where to go by reading the text or listening to the quest giver, and if you're still not sure if you're in the right spot, ask in chat.   Even that type of generally positive interaction has been removed from MMOs sadly. 

Anything that you should reasonably know about as a character in a game, should be easilly available to you on a map.   If you can discern it by talking to the locals, you shouldn't have to go through arbitrary map hunting.   Otherwise it is just another form of kill ten rats.

I can understand your position, given you like the mapping thing, but in OD&D (Old D&D) mapping was the biggest waste of time in the game personally.   Different playstyles I guess.  

I always was one for earning your map / gps systems in games. Drawn maps on paper to map out the landscape and edition numbered (player x verson 1, 2 etc. Player y V 1,2,3 etc) and can you can duplicate and sell your maps and buy another players maps which may be different or map out more of an area etc. And maps would need to be updated etc as the land changes.

Could still modern it up by manually exploring etc and it being more automated other than looking at a piece of parchment with charcoal in hand walking at a slow speed to explore it would be where a map usually is etc and do it automatily with those things plus sextant, compas etc in inventory.

...or you could google the map an keep it on your secondary screen.

A radio which has a range and could be scrambled could be cool but nothing stops the players from using VOIP so why implement it in the first place?

I see your point and agree for the most part.

Games like TSW and SWTOR may pass on this, since you should have the technology / access to maps and gps. However, all of these fantasy games are another story.

Originally posted by tabindex

What does the modern day "give me my trophy and loot right now for free" players think of a cartography trade skill?

*quits bothering to read any further*

---

Originally posted by tabindex
The only thing I hate more than every MMO now coming with built in maps, is the built in GPS system that tells you at all times exactly where you are on the map.  I long for the days of my folder of printouts from eqatlas of course, but realize that will never again be.  So, how about compromise.

 

What does the modern day "give me my trophy and loot right now for free" players think of a cartography trade skill?  There would be maps in game, but they wouldn't be handed out for free and by default.  Players would be responsible for creating the maps in game.  Not necessarily "drawing them", but similar to some trade skill systems where you put stuff in the blackbox, press combine, and get a map out of the blackbox.  At low levels and with poor materials, you may at best get the outline of the zone.  A little more time and effort put in, and you can see the mountain range or river cutting across the zone.  At high end level and with the best of materials, a full map with landmarks noted. 

 

Dungeon maps would be avabile for crafting too, but these would be even harder and rarer than overworld maps.

 

The maps would be available for trade or sell.  Ideally, the high end ones would be near impossible to achieve, allowing the best cartographers to earn a reputation and a profit.

 

Hopefully, GPS wouldn't be available ever.  But I guess a combine could allow for that as well.

---

I remember playing a game that had a cartography skill, maybe EQ? Was ages ago, so probably had to be. I could see that I guess, but I doubt it would go over. You could always compromise by never hitting the "M" key and hiding the minimap (or put a post-it note over it that simply reads "Here There Be Dragons").

Check out the Eschalon games for a cool way to implement a cartography skill!

As much as I'd like to see that happen, I doubt it will.  Players will simply use the internet and cheat.

I do think we should get rid of radar and not show where the player is on the map.  That would force them to use landmarks and general knowledge of the area to navigate.  Having the most accurate and complete map won't help if you don't know where you are on it.

I play games to fight monsters, not make maps. Making maps are trivial and boring. I did that for Might & Magic. Even by in Ultima 6, they gave you a cloth map so you don't have to make your own.

In fact, if you notice, some of the old WOW dungeons are re-make so you get to the boss fight faster .. by popular demand.

When I think of a working cartography skill in the Internet age, I think of players being able to modify loot tables(monsters, materials, or whatever).  

The next thing I think about are small party buffs like +exp, +movement, +debuff resistance.

Originally posted by Eluldor

Games like TSW and SWTOR may pass on this, since you should have the technology / access to maps and gps. However, all of these fantasy games are another story.

Worst argument ever: Let's allow the setting to dictate the gameplay!

If you have to draw a map to succeed in the game, it should be because the game is (in part) about exploring and finding your way around... not because the technology level of the setting predates GPS.

Originally posted by Disdena

Originally posted by Eluldor

Games like TSW and SWTOR may pass on this, since you should have the technology / access to maps and gps. However, all of these fantasy games are another story.

Worst argument ever: Let's allow the setting to dictate the gameplay!

If you have to draw a map to succeed in the game, it should be because the game is (in part) about exploring and finding your way around... not because the technology level of the setting predates GPS.

I disagree entirely; the setting should matter a great deal in matters like this. The level of technology available to the character should absolutely affect how much information one can get ingame. I don't care if most of the people will end up pulling it off the internet; designing a game to support systems that have no in game background reasons is still dumb. It will hurt the game, even if most players don't take the time to understand just why the game just isn't living up to their long term expectations.

Now I can't see a game working without any maps at all nowadays, but you could easily vary the amount and type of detail covered by the maps based on the skills of the person who made them. Have the basic map that everyone automatically has access to have the basic landmarks, roads, cities, etc, but also have the option of making more complex and specialized maps that could include resource information, mob information, quest information and other specific information that would allow people to customize their maps, and give explorers another way to support themselves. And doing this would fit pretty much any MMO world. There would be enough information available that the basic map information would be quite reasonable, but not so much that the maps would be highly detailed without player effort. This would also allow different players to highlight and find different things based on their interests and goals.

If you dont' like the build in gps so badly, you can just play without it. 

If you want cartography, get a piece of paper and pen and you can do that.

Originally posted by sunshadow21

Now I can't see a game working without any maps at all nowadays

That is just what I'm talking about. When deciding whether the game should have maps, or what kinds of maps it should have, the one thing that should matter is whether the game works.

In Castlevania: Symphony of the Night, it's really important for you to know which rooms you have visited, so you can see where you haven't gone yet. Most Metroidvania-style games use a map like this. Imagine if Konami had decided against implementing a map with those features solely because the game takes place in the 1790s. Is it really a good idea to sacrifice a working game over an anachronism?

We have a different audience today than we did in the 90's. MMOs have gone mainstream which means people with jobs, school and families

Nobody has time getting lost in the woods trying to find the people he is suppose to group up with then spend 30 mins trying to locate his position. People want to log on, find a group and get started right away. Not having any ingame maps gets in the way of that. Sure it adds to immersion not to have one but it's also a hassle

FFXI handled this with grace imo.  In some of the upper level zones, there was no map.  You had to exlplore and find treasure chests with region maps in them.  It is fun roaming around a huge and complex zone with no map with mobs than can murder you quickly while having to travel through them to other zone access points with land marks, scenery, etc...  They made you work for it, just not hand it to you on a silver platter.

I highly doubt fatasy settings have satellites wtih GPS markers, so yeah, it does ruin the immersion a lot.  What was really annoying in Aion is when you were rifting or in the abyss pvping, and people could just mark you on the map and call you out on global chat for reinforcements, that is really lame.  Totally kills the fun factor, unpredicability, and anonymity for me. 

Originally posted by SoulSurfer

FFXI handled this with grace imo.  In some of the upper level zones, there was no map.  You had to exlplore and find treasure chests with region maps in them.  It is fun roaming around a huge and complex zone with no map with mobs than can murder you quickly while having to travel through them to other zone access points with land marks, scenery, etc...  They made you work for it, just not hand it to you on a silver platter.

I highly doubt fatasy settings have satellites wtih GPS markers, so yeah, it does ruin the immersion a lot.  What was really annoying in Aion is when you were rifting or in the abyss pvping, and people could just mark you on the map and call you out on global chat for reinforcements, that is really lame.  Totally kills the fun factor, unpredicability, and anonymity for me. 

 

FFXI is one of the best game I've seen for fantasy maps short of cartography skills. The maps are there, but there are not a given. You either have to buy or quest for any beyond the initial maps of your starting city and the surrounding zone. They also don't show incredible levels of detail, just basic coordinates and landmarks. If you want more detail, you can use markers, but that's still on the user, not an automatic thing. You could find someone in each city to give you markers for the key NPCs so you weren't completely on your own and party members showed up as automatic markers, but it was still mostly up to the player to take care of their own mapping concerns. This made people actually care about the different zones and when they left one to go to another one.

Originally posted by Disdena

Originally posted by sunshadow21

Now I can't see a game working without any maps at all nowadays

That is just what I'm talking about. When deciding whether the game should have maps, or what kinds of maps it should have, the one thing that should matter is whether the game works.

In Castlevania: Symphony of the Night, it's really important for you to know which rooms you have visited, so you can see where you haven't gone yet. Most Metroidvania-style games use a map like this. Imagine if Konami had decided against implementing a map with those features solely because the game takes place in the 1790s. Is it really a good idea to sacrifice a working game over an anachronism?

Except that you can have a game that works without having hyper detailed maps. Too many games today just automatically give fully detailed maps with everything the player could possibly want to know and that is just as bad for immersion as no maps at all. Finding a middle ground that gives basic information while still maintaining the setting is important. A game like Eve can reasonably give hyper detailed maps because of the the setting. A game like Everquest, WOW, or some other fantasy setting, automatically having every single detail at your finger tips just doesn't make sense; it hurts the overall immersion of the game. It can still make sense to have basic information about the more common zones and cities, but not every single detail. If a player makes such a detailed map, however, it can enhance the community and add noncombat options to the game.