Originally posted by Quirhid

Originally posted by bunnyhopper

Originally posted by Quirhid

 

 

Its not an excuse, the amount of traffic is so much more than with a conventional tab-targeting combat and it has to all go through the server. Any hitch and players will complain. The game could become virtually unplayable if the amount of players in one combat area rises. It may not crash but it sure wouldn't be fun to play either.

Its tricky.

Naturally one server solutions would be out of the question because it would give players closer to the server a noticable and unfair advantage.

It is tricky, but it is also doable. PS2 will manage to have large scale FPS combat, Darkfall manages to have smaller scale (due to the population) FPS combat, on a shoe string budget. With the kind of numbers we see in most mmorpg combat situations is really should not be an issue.

Yes there would have to be EU/US server splits.

Making people aim is the most natural method of reducing any inbalance in ranged vs melee. It also promotes player skill. That is not to advocate it for all games mind you.

Originally posted by Trionicus

Originally posted by Ashen_X

Originally posted by Trionicus

Originally posted by Ashen_X

Originally posted by 3-4thElf

I mean in real combat, even now, having superior range even with moderate accuracy is the way to go into combat.  

This is inaccurate except in very specific circumstances.

 

Otherwise, I agree with some of the spirit of the post. Melee needs an advantage to compensate for its smaller engagement envelope compared to ranged combatants.

 

I think that most games, that I have played at least, have made an effort to provide this advantage.

 

 

He has a point when it comes to modern warfare. According to Jeremy Scahill the US is doing very well in a lot of their smaller wars simply because of the UCAV.

 

EDIT: I can't remember which game gives you the UCAV as a boon, but it was broken in there too. You could just win round after round with it.

The UCAV is an aircraft armed with, primarily, short range attack systems. It is an example of a short ranged attack system, in some cases, replacing longer ranged systems, much like the M4 replacing the M16.

It's still armed with Hellfire missiles, pretty far range if dealing with ground troops. It's no ballistic missile but still, what sniper can guarantee an 8km shot?

I don't really like to talk about all of this so forgive me.

But seeing a .50 cal vs a SVD outside of a Battlefield 3 game is pretty solid proof having superior range can turn things around.

Originally posted by bunnyhopper

Originally posted by Quirhid

Originally posted by bunnyhopper

Originally posted by Quirhid

 

 

Its not an excuse, the amount of traffic is so much more than with a conventional tab-targeting combat and it has to all go through the server. Any hitch and players will complain. The game could become virtually unplayable if the amount of players in one combat area rises. It may not crash but it sure wouldn't be fun to play either.

Its tricky.

Naturally one server solutions would be out of the question because it would give players closer to the server a noticable and unfair advantage.

It is tricky, but it is also doable. PS2 will manage to have large scale FPS combat, Darkfall manages to have smaller scale (due to the population) FPS combat, on a shoe string budget. With the kind of numbers we see in most mmorpg combat situations is really should not be an issue.

 

Yes there would have to be EU/US server splits.

 

Making people aim is the most natural method of reducing any inbalance in ranged vs melee. It also promotes player skill. That is not to advocate it for all games mind you.

 

I don't mind aiming, but you know I don't really think it'd work for a good magical feel aiming like it's a rifle. 

I think just adding casting times and having those become part of the decision as a caster on a battlefield would make all the difference.

"Do I want to 50% this guy and chant for 6 seconds? Will my team protect me? Okay how about a 1.5 cast, run a bit, and hit him with a 2 second stun?"

GW2, WoW, a few other games have a nice fast pace to them. But the ranged classes seem quite rollface.

Originally posted by 3-4thElf

Originally posted by bunnyhopper

Originally posted by Quirhid

Originally posted by bunnyhopper

Originally posted by Quirhid

 

 

 

I don't mind aiming, but you know I don't really think it'd work for a good magical feel aiming like it's a rifle. 

I think just adding casting times and having those become part of the decision as a caster on a battlefield would make all the difference.

"Do I want to 50% this guy and chant for 6 seconds? Will my team protect me? Okay how about a 1.5 cast, run a bit, and hit him with a 2 second stun?"

GW2, WoW, a few other games have a nice fast pace to them. But the ranged classes seem quite rollface.

Different strokes for different folks but why wouldn't aiming give a "magical feel"? You lob a whacking great fireball and aim it in the rough area you want it to go. Seems far more natural than pressing tab and then pressing a simply attack button.

You should have casting times as well as having to aim, in my humble opinion that is. You have to ponder your tactics on the fly AND aim.

There would be quite and art to hurling a fireball into the right area at the right time to scatter the enemy. Or unleash an arrow from your bow to take down a moving, mounted target at a distance. At range it is harder to do, which balances it nicely giving melee players the chance to close in if they move around and don't steamroll forwards like a great deal of the tab target crowd does.

Aiming also allows for more use of the terrain over and above simple LOS tactics. Standing on objects for example, if you are above someone and they are aiming up at you, if they miss their AOE will scream on harmlessly into the sky. If you are below someone it will hammer into the ground hitting them. It just adds more as far as I can see.

My take is that rather than making sure that each class is balanced 1v1, you make 1v1 fights irrelevant and just make all classes equally useful/necessary in the overall conflict. In League of Legends, nobody cares whether Graves can beat Irelia if they faced off in the middle of nowhere with no teammates or turrets or minions. (I mean, some people care—"meet me in mid 1v1 noob"—but those people are idiots.) Even the champions who are incredibly good at one-on-one fights are nothing special in the grand scheme of things.

Originally posted by 3-4thElf

Originally posted by Jemcrystal

PvP ruined every game I liked.  Gimp my ranger.  Gimp my ranger.  I don't even PvP!!!!!

So you're saying rangers should shoot arrows faster than someone can stab with a knife and have unlimited ammo to be fun?

I think I was saying PvP can go.  

As far as unlimited arrows I kinda like that in a way but overall I feel like it takes to much reality from a game.  I like Mabinogi where I carry a quiver.  That feels real like I would do irl if I was an archer.  But I don't want so much reality that I can only carry 20 arrows in a quiver.  You can craft your own arrows to get better quality in Mabinogi.

Did I mention I was PvE ONLY?

As far as "someone can stab" that sounds like a rogue.  My RIFT char was a ranger/rogue.   That was hot.

Did I mention I hate PvP???

Now if 10 mobs get on me and I'm all alone with no party yeah I think being able to, how did you put it, "shoot arrows faster than  someone can stab," would suit just fine.  

Affirmative!

Originally posted by Jemcrystal

Originally posted by 3-4thElf

Originally posted by Jemcrystal

PvP ruined every game I liked.  Gimp my ranger.  Gimp my ranger.  I don't even PvP!!!!!

So you're saying rangers should shoot arrows faster than someone can stab with a knife and have unlimited ammo to be fun?

I think I was saying PvP can go.  

As far as unlimited arrows I kinda like that in a way but overall I feel like it takes to much reality from a game.  I like Mabinogi where I carry a quiver.  That feels real like I would do irl if I was an archer.  But I don't want so much reality that I can only carry 20 arrows in a quiver.  You can craft your own arrows to get better quality in Mabinogi.

Did I mention I was PvE ONLY?

As far as "someone can stab" that sounds like a rogue.  My RIFT char was a ranger/rogue.   That was hot.

Did I mention I hate PvP???

Now if 10 mobs get on me and I'm all alone with no party yeah I think being able to, how did you put it, "shoot arrows faster than  someone can stab," would suit just fine.  

Affirmative!

Even in PVE, range shouldn't be on par with melee. It should have it's own advantages and it's own risk.

Originally posted by bunnyhopper

Originally posted by 3-4thElf

Originally posted by bunnyhopper

Originally posted by Quirhid

Originally posted by bunnyhopper

Originally posted by Quirhid

 

 

 

I don't mind aiming, but you know I don't really think it'd work for a good magical feel aiming like it's a rifle. 

I think just adding casting times and having those become part of the decision as a caster on a battlefield would make all the difference.

"Do I want to 50% this guy and chant for 6 seconds? Will my team protect me? Okay how about a 1.5 cast, run a bit, and hit him with a 2 second stun?"

GW2, WoW, a few other games have a nice fast pace to them. But the ranged classes seem quite rollface.

Different strokes for different folks but why wouldn't aiming give a "magical feel"? You lob a whacking great fireball and aim it in the rough area you want it to go. Seems far more natural than pressing tab and then pressing a simply attack button.

 

You should have casting times as well as having to aim, in my humble opinion that is. You have to ponder your tactics on the fly AND aim.

 

There would be quite and art to hurling a fireball into the right area at the right time to scatter the enemy. Or unleash an arrow from your bow to take down a moving, mounted target at a distance. At range it is harder to do, which balances it nicely giving melee players the chance to close in if they move around and don't steamroll forwards like a great deal of the tab target crowd does.

 

Aiming also allows for more use of the terrain over and above simple LOS tactics. Standing on objects for example, if you are above someone and they are aiming up at you, if they miss their AOE will scream on harmlessly into the sky. If you are below someone it will hammer into the ground hitting them. It just adds more as far as I can see.

I don't mind aiming for magic, but I don't think it should be like a gun is all.

More like how some games use the circles to show an area effect. Why not something a little more mystical? Or even use items to help aim. Where an arrow should have a defined path while aimed, a magic missle could get a little mystical help to follow a target a bit (more like leaning rather than full on tracking like some tab target games).

Originally posted by Trionicus

Originally posted by Ashen_X

Originally posted by Trionicus

Originally posted by Ashen_X

Originally posted by 3-4thElf

I mean in real combat, even now, having superior range even with moderate accuracy is the way to go into combat.  

This is inaccurate except in very specific circumstances.

 

Otherwise, I agree with some of the spirit of the post. Melee needs an advantage to compensate for its smaller engagement envelope compared to ranged combatants.

 

I think that most games, that I have played at least, have made an effort to provide this advantage.

 

 

He has a point when it comes to modern warfare. According to Jeremy Scahill the US is doing very well in a lot of their smaller wars simply because of the UCAV.

 

EDIT: I can't remember which game gives you the UCAV as a boon, but it was broken in there too. You could just win round after round with it.

The UCAV is an aircraft armed with, primarily, short range attack systems. It is an example of a short ranged attack system, in some cases, replacing longer ranged systems, much like the M4 replacing the M16.

It's still armed with Hellfire missiles, pretty far range if dealing with ground troops. It's no ballistic missile but still, what sniper can guarantee an 8km shot?

You are comparing combat aircraft to infantry ? Apples and Oranges.

By combat aircraft standards the UCAV relies on very short range weapon systems. In fact, in at least one occasion, they are replacing the F16 (with a much much greater engagement range) in U.S. service.

---

Originally posted by Loke666
It really is a balancing thing. But sure, limiting number of arrows a player can carry is one way to balance things. Another is having a miss percentage based on how far away the oponent is.

The most fun would be to have 17th century pistols and muskets with huge damage but realistic loading time, that would really encourage people to shoot once and switch to blade afterwards.

---

Its old and not a mmo but "Darklands" had such a mechanic.
Each encounter started with ranged attacks if you had a ranged weapon and Bows were the fastest able to do some shots but had the lowest damage, Crossbows had around 2 shots at moderate damage and Guns had one shot and with huge damage and a loading time that the enemy could cross all the map from the farthest corner to you and the next round was still not ready, so each encounter ended up as melee encounter.
Obviously its a game from Microprose as they had usually a clue about what they did.

Originally posted by 3-4thElf

Originally posted by Jemcrystal

Originally posted by 3-4thElf

Originally posted by Jemcrystal

PvP ruined every game I liked.  Gimp my ranger.  Gimp my ranger.  I don't even PvP!!!!!

So you're saying rangers should shoot arrows faster than someone can stab with a knife and have unlimited ammo to be fun?

I think I was saying PvP can go.  

As far as unlimited arrows I kinda like that in a way but overall I feel like it takes to much reality from a game.  I like Mabinogi where I carry a quiver.  That feels real like I would do irl if I was an archer.  But I don't want so much reality that I can only carry 20 arrows in a quiver.  You can craft your own arrows to get better quality in Mabinogi.

Did I mention I was PvE ONLY?

As far as "someone can stab" that sounds like a rogue.  My RIFT char was a ranger/rogue.   That was hot.

Did I mention I hate PvP???

Now if 10 mobs get on me and I'm all alone with no party yeah I think being able to, how did you put it, "shoot arrows faster than  someone can stab," would suit just fine.  

Affirmative!

Even in PVE, range shouldn't be on par with melee. It should have it's own advantages and it's own risk.

last word

Ranged in Asheron's Call

-Shoot arrow at person

-person either is slow and gets hit

-or person dodges

ranged in modern mmos -

ROFLTROLLCOPTER...

lets put in heat sinking arrows that will follow you for hundreds of miles....to the tallest mountain on earth...to the deepest part of the ocean...to the very core of earth! To the moon in the sky and then planets beyond. That arrow will find you!